Supporting PvE Raiders in Ashes

For starters, this isn't the main focus of AoC. This is a PvX game and I want the open world to stay relevant, becoming the main character. What I'm suggesting below is only something sprinkled in. Only a portion of the 20% instanced content. It will take development time, but is not the core of the game like some others.

I've seen quotes that suggest this may be on their mind. I've also seen some more recent counterarguments. This is just something I want to express that I'd like to see in the game. If this is old news, great. If not, please consider it.

Background:

I main ESO right now. The end-game raids in these games are a ton of fun to me. The harder difficulties, then achievement hunting, it feels very rewarding to complete them. 12 of my friends work together for months to optimize our group and perfect the mechanics. I hear WoW raids are legendary. Many others like Final Fantasy, etc.

The common thing here is an instanced PvE arena. For the instancing part, Steven has said himself that this instancing allows for more advanced mechanics. I believe that as well. The PvE part is more complicated though. I would like to see ideas to mix in PvP. I can think of some interesting ones but nothing concrete atm. The main concern I want to eliminate is mechanics being "dumbed down" because of the threat of PvP. I know in the raids we do, one goofball could run in the middle of everything and kill everyone. That's the nature of having those advanced mechanics.

Content Suggestion:

- Put the final boss at the end of an open-world dungeon in an instanced arena.
- Look at making 3+ of these boss arenas for release.
- Have the number available to the server based on node setup.
- Fight lengths will be long (10-15+ mins), have multiple stages/waves and possibly separate rooms to change up the arena.
- Content needs to take time to learn and complete. Nothing you can walk into and master in a couple of days.
- Look to current games that are focused on PvE Raiding.
- Only allow one party in the instance at a time. It's not required from a PvP aspect, see paragraph above, I do think it could help eliminate people zerging your fine-tuned mechanics.
- Consider allowing only one instance at a time. This has a lot of implications. Especially around watching the door for PvE and PvP. Just something to consider.
- Consider reduced death penalties in this "event". I'm not positive about this, but I tend to think tough content will require wiping and plenty of it.
- Include achievements like speed, no-death and other fun unique ones.

Reward Suggestion:

- Do not drop exclusive materials, but valuable ones.
- Small chance to drop a unique gear recipe (that can be sold).
- Small chance to drop a low-quality version of that gear.
- Very small chance to drop skins/cosmetic items.
- Miniscule chance to drop a flying mount.
- Performance metrics drive drop rates.
- Completing achievements awards small cosmetics or titles.

It is important to remember that your group will have to fight through an open-world dungeon to get there and to bring the loot home.

Thank you for reading.

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Comments

Stalwart

Btw one interesting way I could think of mixing in PvP is having an early warning system that you are being raided. It could be built into the mechanics. To complete the fight you have to risk group wipes from mistakes. You can avoid those mechanics with a different strategy, but it only delays the fight.

So a PvP raid is incoming, you better reorganize or everyone is going to get wiped.

Perhaps only certain classes can provide you with that early warning. (ahem Rouge)

Depraved

i prefer something like baium, anthars or valakas and with no player limit. you have to fight outside the boss lair for the right to get in, then whoever can get in when the boss spawns gets in and tries to kill it.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

i prefer something like baium, anthars or valakas and with no player limit. you have to fight outside the boss lair for the right to get in, then whoever can get in when the boss spawns gets in and tries to kill it.

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

Liniker

Noaani wrote: »

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

That's what AoC is, if you are looking for instanced PvE content theres other games for that, the so called 20% should and most likely will be reserved to non repeatable narrative dungeons and that's it

Noaani

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

That's what AoC is, if you are looking for instanced PvE content theres other games for that, the so called 20% should and most likely will be reserved to non repeatable narrative dungeons and that's it

I mean, thatis the point I was making.

If you want a game where you can PvP, Ashes may have you sorted, as far as MMO's gl. If you want a game where you can PvE and PvE, all good. If you want to just be able to PvE by itself though, people like you will post comments like this above and tell you that you just arent allowed to do that in this game.

And then no doubt you'll wonder why people refer to this game as a PvP MMO, not a PvX MMO.

In other words if you want PvE (like 80%+ of the MMO population do) this isnt a game worth looking at.

Chonkers1

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

That's what AoC is, if you are looking for instanced PvE content theres other games for that, the so called 20% should and most likely will be reserved to non repeatable narrative dungeons and that's it

I mean, thatis the point I was making.

If you want a game where you can PvP, Ashes may have you sorted, as far as MMO's gl. If you want a game where you can PvE and PvE, all good. If you want to just be able to PvE by itself though, people like you will post comments like this above and tell you that you just arent allowed to do that in this game.

And then no doubt you'll wonder why people refer to this game as a PvP MMO, not a PvX MMO.

In other words if you want PvE (like 80%+ of the MMO population do) this isnt a game worth looking at.

If you want just PvP this mmo is not for u either.
Therefore PvX

Noaani

Chonkers wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

That's what AoC is, if you are looking for instanced PvE content theres other games for that, the so called 20% should and most likely will be reserved to non repeatable narrative dungeons and that's it

I mean, thatis the point I was making.

If you want a game where you can PvP, Ashes may have you sorted, as far as MMO's gl. If you want a game where you can PvE and PvE, all good. If you want to just be able to PvE by itself though, people like you will post comments like this above and tell you that you just arent allowed to do that in this game.

And then no doubt you'll wonder why people refer to this game as a PvP MMO, not a PvX MMO.

In other words if you want PvE (like 80%+ of the MMO population do) this isnt a game worth looking at.

If you want just PvP this mmo is not for u either.
Therefore PvX

In terms of MMO's, it kind of is.

If all you want is PvP, MMO's arent the genre for you.

Dygz

Specifically, MMORPGs.
An MMOFPS can be mostly PvP.
No surprise to have a mostly PvP MMO Survival Game.

Enigmatic Sage

Dygz wrote: »

Specifically, MMORPGs.
An MMOFPS can be mostly PvP.
No surprise to have a mostly PvP MMO Survival Game.

mmofps can have rpg and survival too! MMOFPSRPG SURVIVAL

Genre mixing is getting absurd with actual identity these days. haha

unknownsystemerror

They have been pretty clear over what they intend to deliver. You can advocate and say "I want this. They should do this!" all you like. Won't change what you are going to get. And as mentioned in the quotes below, they are ok if you take your toys and go home.

What we're creating is a PvX game; and what that means is our target audience is the PvX player; and that is our golden cohort. And so to a degree if a player is solely interested in the most elaborate raid boss mechanics within a controlled and curated setting that is instanced gameplay, Ashes might not be the game for them and that's okay. However, with that being said, we do have a division of curated experiences that exist in an 80:20 ratio; and what that means is roughly 20% of the content that players will experience will be instanced, because where we want to have that granular control over the design and mechanics of a particular storyline or encounter we utilize the instance setting to provide that.[1] – Steven Sharif

They won't be best-in-slot type items. You will not accomplish that from in from instanced-based content. Those will be found within the open-world. It'll be a competitive area for you to achieve those things, because other forces will want to achieve them as well; and because it's open-world there will be a limited number of those who can successfully complete on: Whether it be some timer for a world boss, or some condition or other world state predicate. Those are things that people are going to have to contend with each other for.[6] – Steven Sharif

In situations where we want to contain a particular type of raid, we will utilize instancing; and that can protect certain engagements with certain bosses. But that's really more on the 20% of the scenarios will have instancing protection like that. Around 80% of the content is open-world, where competition is- healthy competition is an instigator for soft player friction; for potential cooperation; for the ability to yield alliances; and the political theater that comes with it. So that's an intended part of the PvX design of Ashes. It's a core philosophical point. And just to be clear, that is not for everyone. We are not trying to make a product that appeals to every MMO gamer. That's impossible; and so we've been very upfront and forthright with what we are trying to accomplish and what our core pillars of philosophical design are.[2] – Steven Sharif

There will be some open dungeons that have bosses at the end of the dungeons. There will be some open dungeons that just have a multitude of dungeon bosses, not necessarily world raids or something; and there will be lots of different rooms and they'll be progressive in the sense that in the earlier parts of the dungeon they'll be lower level and then at the later parts of the dungeons deeper down they'll be higher level and more difficult; and that creates again I think an ecosystem of where players across a multitude of levels have an opportunity to coexist within certain areas of the world; and that's good from a social dynamic. It's good from a recruitment dynamic. It's good from just a liveliness and relevance of particular areas. So that you don't end up with these locations that once you pass a certain level like it's empty.[13] – Steven Sharif

In a majority of cases, we do not want to prevent another group from engaging potentially in PvP. We disincentivize it by creating safeguards within the flagging system that make that decision very concerning for the people that might go corrupt; and if you're in the large enough group of numbers I doubt you're going to experience that unless there's some rivalry between guilds. In which case there's apparatuses like Guild Wars that are more opt-in. You can drop guild tag if you want. But anyways, the competitive nature of this environment is a PvX element.[2] – Steven Sharif

II_Splash_ll

Stalwart wrote: »

For starters, this isn't the main focus of AoC. This is a PvX game and I want the open world to stay relevant, becoming the main character. What I'm suggesting below is only something sprinkled in. Only a portion of the 20% instanced content. It will take development time, but is not the core of the game like some others.

I've seen quotes that suggest this may be on their mind. I've also seen some more recent counterarguments. This is just something I want to express that I'd like to see in the game. If this is old news, great. If not, please consider it.

Background:

I main ESO right now. The end-game raids in these games are a ton of fun to me. The harder difficulties, then achievement hunting, it feels very rewarding to complete them. 12 of my friends work together for months to optimize our group and perfect the mechanics. I hear WoW raids are legendary. Many others like Final Fantasy, etc.

The common thing here is an instanced PvE arena. For the instancing part, Steven has said himself that this instancing allows for more advanced mechanics. I believe that as well. The PvE part is more complicated though. I would like to see ideas to mix in PvP. I can think of some interesting ones but nothing concrete atm. The main concern I want to eliminate is mechanics being "dumbed down" because of the threat of PvP. I know in the raids we do, one goofball could run in the middle of everything and kill everyone. That's the nature of having those advanced mechanics.

Content Suggestion:

- Put the final boss at the end of an open-world dungeon in an instanced arena.
- Look at making 3+ of these boss arenas for release.
- Have the number available to the server based on node setup.
- Fight lengths will be long (10-15+ mins), have multiple stages/waves and possibly separate rooms to change up the arena.
- Content needs to take time to learn and complete. Nothing you can walk into and master in a couple of days.
- Look to current games that are focused on PvE Raiding.
- Only allow one party in the instance at a time. It's not required from a PvP aspect, see paragraph above, I do think it could help eliminate people zerging your fine-tuned mechanics.
- Consider allowing only one instance at a time. This has a lot of implications. Especially around watching the door for PvE and PvP. Just something to consider.
- Consider reduced death penalties in this "event". I'm not positive about this, but I tend to think tough content will require wiping and plenty of it.
- Include achievements like speed, no-death and other fun unique ones.

Reward Suggestion:

- Do not drop exclusive materials, but valuable ones.
- Small chance to drop a unique gear recipe (that can be sold).
- Small chance to drop a low-quality version of that gear.
- Very small chance to drop skins/cosmetic items.
- Miniscule chance to drop a flying mount.
- Performance metrics drive drop rates.
- Completing achievements awards small cosmetics or titles.

It is important to remember that your group will have to fight through an open-world dungeon to get there and to bring the loot home.

Thank you for reading.

II_Splash_ll

End game raider in ESO too. I hope there are some raids . I enjoy it’s taken me years to get to trifecta

Dygz

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

An MMOFPS can be mostly PvP.
No surprise to have a mostly PvP MMO Survival Game.

mmofps can have rpg and survival too! MMOFPSRPG SURVIVAL

Genre mixing is getting absurd with actual identity these days. haha

Hybrids somtimes happen - yes.

Enigmatic Sage

Dygz wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

An MMOFPS can be mostly PvP.
No surprise to have a mostly PvP MMO Survival Game.

mmofps can have rpg and survival too! MMOFPSRPG SURVIVAL

Genre mixing is getting absurd with actual identity these days. haha

Hybrids somtimes happen - yes.[/quote]

more than hybridisation. Genre's are just blending because what made them more iconic for identity can primarily be seen as common features now. 20 years ago, completely different story in terms of modern game design. Unless someone designs a game to be "true" to the original specifications for features.... it's just reality now.

Noaani

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

And as mentioned in the quotes below, they are ok if you take your toys and go home.

This is basically the point I made.

If PvE is what you want - in basically any form - Ashes isnt the game for you, and Intrepid are fine with that.

There is a very clear path for Intrepid to take if they ever changed their mind, and like some others, I am happy to discuss that path. However, discussing the path and expecting Intrepid to take that path are two different things.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i prefer something like baium, anthars or valakas and with no player limit. you have to fight outside the boss lair for the right to get in, then whoever can get in when the boss spawns gets in and tries to kill it.

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

well, its a pvx game. besides, a lot of the PVP is already determined by pve. also, nothing guarantees that you can even do the boss after you are already inside. you are just fighting for the right to be inside.

additionally, after the boss wakes up, no one else can get in. This even makes it more challenging than your typical pve instance where you can wipe and try again 345745 times. there arent second chances here. you would have to win the PVP again.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i prefer something like baium, anthars or valakas and with no player limit. you have to fight outside the boss lair for the right to get in, then whoever can get in when the boss spawns gets in and tries to kill it.

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

well, its a pvx game. besides, a lot of the PVP is already determined by pve. also, nothing guarantees that you can even do the boss after you are already inside. you are just fighting for the right to be inside.

additionally, after the boss wakes up, no one else can get in. This even makes it more challenging than your typical pve instance where you can wipe and try again 345745 times. there arent second chances here. you would have to win the PVP again.

There are two ways this could go. Either the developers tune the content for PvP players - as content in Archeage (including it's instanced content) was, or it is tuned as PvE content.

If it is tuned as PvE content, PvP players with a PvP spec and PvP gear will have literally no shot at it (in exactly the same way PvE players with PvE specs and PvE gear will have no shot against PvP players).

Thus, the only viable way to ever get a kill is to have some of your guild/alliance dealing with the PvP, while some deals with the PvE. If this is the case, you would deal with that PvP constantly, until the encounter is dead (you have people there to only do this).

On the other hand, if it is tuned for PvP players in PvP spec/gear, it will probably be killed first pull - and only PvP players will give a shit about the game.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i prefer something like baium, anthars or valakas and with no player limit. you have to fight outside the boss lair for the right to get in, then whoever can get in when the boss spawns gets in and tries to kill it.

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

well, its a pvx game. besides, a lot of the PVP is already determined by pve. also, nothing guarantees that you can even do the boss after you are already inside. you are just fighting for the right to be inside.

additionally, after the boss wakes up, no one else can get in. This even makes it more challenging than your typical pve instance where you can wipe and try again 345745 times. there arent second chances here. you would have to win the PVP again.

There are two ways this could go. Either the developers tune the content for PvP players - as content in Archeage (including it's instanced content) was, or it is tuned as PvE content.

If it is tuned as PvE content, PvP players with a PvP spec and PvP gear will have literally no shot at it (in exactly the same way PvE players with PvE specs and PvE gear will have no shot against PvP players).

Thus, the only viable way to ever get a kill is to have some of your guild/alliance dealing with the PvP, while some deals with the PvE. If this is the case, you would deal with that PvP constantly, until the encounter is dead (you have people there to only do this).

On the other hand, if it is tuned for PvP players in PvP spec/gear, it will probably be killed first pull - and only PvP players will give a shit about the game.

plot twist: there isn't pvp or pve gear, just gear that is the same for both scenarios (what matters is your stats and there isn't a pve stat or a PVP stat/resilience or whatever)

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i prefer something like baium, anthars or valakas and with no player limit. you have to fight outside the boss lair for the right to get in, then whoever can get in when the boss spawns gets in and tries to kill it.

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

well, its a pvx game. besides, a lot of the PVP is already determined by pve. also, nothing guarantees that you can even do the boss after you are already inside. you are just fighting for the right to be inside.

additionally, after the boss wakes up, no one else can get in. This even makes it more challenging than your typical pve instance where you can wipe and try again 345745 times. there arent second chances here. you would have to win the PVP again.

There are two ways this could go. Either the developers tune the content for PvP players - as content in Archeage (including it's instanced content) was, or it is tuned as PvE content.

If it is tuned as PvE content, PvP players with a PvP spec and PvP gear will have literally no shot at it (in exactly the same way PvE players with PvE specs and PvE gear will have no shot against PvP players).

Thus, the only viable way to ever get a kill is to have some of your guild/alliance dealing with the PvP, while some deals with the PvE. If this is the case, you would deal with that PvP constantly, until the encounter is dead (you have people there to only do this).

On the other hand, if it is tuned for PvP players in PvP spec/gear, it will probably be killed first pull - and only PvP players will give a shit about the game.

plot twist: there isn't pvp or pve gear, just gear that is the same for both scenarios (what matters is your stats and there isn't a pve stat or a PVP stat/resilience or whatever)

There won't be PvP or PvE specific stats on gear, but if a given item is as useful in PvP as it is in PvE, then one aspect of the game will be lacking.

An example from another thread is that it is unlikely that mana regen will be needed in PvP. If it isn't needed in PvE, then either mana is pointless, or PvE is too short.

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