rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. Again combat trackers do not tell you what is best, it only tells you what happend during combat. Meanig that it can not tell you what stats is the best to increase, it can only tell you what that change in stat and rotation did during combat. I think you are confusing combat tracker with combat simulator which simulates combat to try and find the best rotation and stat of a specific class. But that's not what we are currently talking about. Combat tracker is something that, in basic terms, reads the combat log during combat and displays that information.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack.
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why.
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker.
Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed.
Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character.
Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o
Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.
Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build
rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper.
Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp).
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right?
rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will.
Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. Again combat trackers do not tell you what is best, it only tells you what happend during combat. Meanig that it can not tell you what stats is the best to increase, it can only tell you what that change in stat and rotation did during combat. I think you are confusing combat tracker with combat simulator which simulates combat to try and find the best rotation and stat of a specific class. But that's not what we are currently talking about. Combat tracker is something that, in basic terms, reads the combat log during combat and displays that information. yeah but whats the point of displaying the information? you want to use that info somehow. and we are talking about which stats to increase and that a combat tracker can help you decide by doing what you described, changing stats, rotations, etc. so If i increased my magic attack and hit a target for a minute, then reset and increased my casting speed and hit the same target for a minute, by looking at the combat tracker (id probs call it combat tool at this point, since you can do whatever you want with a plugin), id assume that increasing magic attack is the best option since i did more damage and spent less mana and soulshots as well. you could repeat the test several times and you would conclude that increasing your magic attack would be the best option, but in reality, increasing casting speed would be the best option...otherwise you wouldn't even be able to even cast your magic. remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase.
Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase.
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way.
rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. Again combat trackers do not tell you what is best, it only tells you what happend during combat. Meanig that it can not tell you what stats is the best to increase, it can only tell you what that change in stat and rotation did during combat. I think you are confusing combat tracker with combat simulator which simulates combat to try and find the best rotation and stat of a specific class. But that's not what we are currently talking about. Combat tracker is something that, in basic terms, reads the combat log during combat and displays that information. yeah but whats the point of displaying the information? you want to use that info somehow. and we are talking about which stats to increase and that a combat tracker can help you decide by doing what you described, changing stats, rotations, etc. so If i increased my magic attack and hit a target for a minute, then reset and increased my casting speed and hit the same target for a minute, by looking at the combat tracker (id probs call it combat tool at this point, since you can do whatever you want with a plugin), id assume that increasing magic attack is the best option since i did more damage and spent less mana and soulshots as well. you could repeat the test several times and you would conclude that increasing your magic attack would be the best option, but in reality, increasing casting speed would be the best option...otherwise you wouldn't even be able to even cast your magic. remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. First of, here you assume something "id assume that increasing magic attack is the best option" so that is not a good argument. Secondly, determining what is "best" from a fight that is 1 minute is a very very small set of data. However, if the combat logs shows that icnreasing magic power for that specific 1 minute fight is better (you doing more dps or whatever) then that's the better option for that very specific 1 minute fight. You can't then just apply that to everything and every fight. You need to be smart and logical and think what could be best in different situations and then test those theories, which can be proven or dissproven with the help of a combat tracker.
Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. hmm 64 classes might not necessarily mean 64 variations in stats. we only have 6 main stats and then I don't know how many substats. it could also be that for all magic oriented classes (mage, bard, summoner, cleric and any 2nd archetype that changed your skills to magic skills) increasing casting speed is better than increasing magic attack. its just something universal. so suddenly you don't have to think about 64 classes or even 32, you just think about physical or magical classes. regarding your last paragraph, that's exactly what I'm talking about. you can play a char different ways, and a tracker or any tool can help you with min maxing, but it doesn't mean its the best way to play it or that people will play that way. we are discussing which stat to increase.
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. hmm 64 classes might not necessarily mean 64 variations in stats. we only have 6 main stats and then I don't know how many substats. it could also be that for all magic oriented classes (mage, bard, summoner, cleric and any 2nd archetype that changed your skills to magic skills) increasing casting speed is better than increasing magic attack. its just something universal. so suddenly you don't have to think about 64 classes or even 32, you just think about physical or magical classes. regarding your last paragraph, that's exactly what I'm talking about. you can play a char different ways, and a tracker or any tool can help you with min maxing, but it doesn't mean its the best way to play it or that people will play that way. we are discussing which stat to increase. Ok but WHY are we discussing that? I didn't see anyone else discussing that, you're the one who brought it to the discussion. You said something (paraphrasing) about how if you used a tracker (incorrectly) in L2, then you would come to certain (incorrect) conclusions. But who cares? That has nothing to do with the topic. I know from my research that L2 was not shallow enough for this to be an issue except in its variety in gear. Nearly no game is as gear-shallow as L2/BDO unless it wants to be, and Ashes probably doesn't want to be. So we expect '64 classes' because the game isn't trying to be some easymode-to-understand cash grab like most of its Korean counterparts. It's never that you can't make them, it's that people get cranky about having to think and rush off to find a guide from someone who did the thinking for them (and hence, the only influence that trackers have on this equation).
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do.
Orym wrote: » I just wanna say that it would be awsome if you really become a "high priest" and not a cleric anymore when picking cleric + cleric for example. Everything from icon, abilities and apperance. So yes 64 classes would be awsome but I think every class should have a strong identity to the base class aswell.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it...
Depraved wrote: » the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice.
Depraved wrote: » saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years.
Depraved wrote: » if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it...
rikardp98 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. Yeah I do think that the 64 class model will, hopefully, give us variations in playstyle within the same archetype and have different bis items/stats of each class Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it... How do you know what is best? Combat trackers in pvp can be good to see what happened and what spell/debuff your opponent used and timings. But since pvp is so dynamic and extremely situational, it can be very difficult to determine what is "best". From what I know, combat trackers are mostly used for PvE Content, but I'm also mostly a PvE player.
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice. But - the only way someone using a combat tracker properly would ever think that an attack (any attack) is the right choice in a given scenario is if they have data to support that it is the right choice in that scenario. People like me look at each option on each encounter. Not each type of encounter - each individual encounter. That is a combat tracker used properly. I'm not going to be sitting around somewhere with some training dummy collecting data and assuming it applies to every situation - I'm going to be out fighting in every situation and then looking at that data. Not only would I know if auto attack (not that we have one) would be near worthless in PvP (due to having data that shows it is near useless), but I would before long have data to support how worthwhile or whorthless auto attack for each class, against each class, at differing levels of what ever physical defenses the game has. That is a combat tracker used properly. You'll know (or think, to be fair) that auto attack is worthless. I'll be able to give an exact value of it's worth, as well as the worth of other attacks, in a variety of situations.
Depraved wrote: » saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years. If people want to spec poorly, that is on them. When I talk about anything (as you well know) I talk about people always doing the best they can within the restrictions placed on them. Thus, if we are talking about someone with a combat tracker and someone without a combat tracker, we are talking about two people doing the best they can. Some people (you would probably be a good example of this, it seems) can even have a combat tracker and spec poorly - but I am not (read; never) talking about such people. Depraved wrote: » if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it...
If I am having to use a combat tracker in order to understand what stat to increase, then I did it wrong.
In regards to spec/gear, you use the combat tracker to understand the whole system - the math behind the system. Then when you are given an option to increase some stat in what ever way, you already know the answer. At best, you then use a combat tracker to confirm what you already know to be true.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice. But - the only way someone using a combat tracker properly would ever think that an attack (any attack) is the right choice in a given scenario is if they have data to support that it is the right choice in that scenario. People like me look at each option on each encounter. Not each type of encounter - each individual encounter. That is a combat tracker used properly. I'm not going to be sitting around somewhere with some training dummy collecting data and assuming it applies to every situation - I'm going to be out fighting in every situation and then looking at that data. Not only would I know if auto attack (not that we have one) would be near worthless in PvP (due to having data that shows it is near useless), but I would before long have data to support how worthwhile or whorthless auto attack for each class, against each class, at differing levels of what ever physical defenses the game has. That is a combat tracker used properly. You'll know (or think, to be fair) that auto attack is worthless. I'll be able to give an exact value of it's worth, as well as the worth of other attacks, in a variety of situations. that's not what I was talking about and I'm not saying what you are wrong here. however, to answer to this point, you could still fall victim of the tracker. the tracker could lead you to reach the conclusion that auto-attacking is a waste of soulshots in PVP. it could tell you that auto attacking in pve is worth it because of the damage you do, the mana you save over time, etc. then you wouldn't consider auto attacks in PVP, but then you arent considering other things such as interrupting the enemy skill, something that you wont see on the logs, for example, and even if you do, you might still not think its worth using them because of the little damage, when in reality its worth using them. this doesn't have to be autos, this could be anything. Depraved wrote: » saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years. If people want to spec poorly, that is on them. When I talk about anything (as you well know) I talk about people always doing the best they can within the restrictions placed on them. Thus, if we are talking about someone with a combat tracker and someone without a combat tracker, we are talking about two people doing the best they can. Some people (you would probably be a good example of this, it seems) can even have a combat tracker and spec poorly - but I am not (read; never) talking about such people. Depraved wrote: » if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it... the best people are a small %. most people might just follow the tracker or some guide who they think its good (that probably was made using a tracker). If I am having to use a combat tracker in order to understand what stat to increase, then I did it wrong. you are the one who suggested this a few posts ago. In regards to spec/gear, you use the combat tracker to understand the whole system - the math behind the system. Then when you are given an option to increase some stat in what ever way, you already know the answer. At best, you then use a combat tracker to confirm what you already know to be true. seems that you gonna be one of those people who gonna fall victim of the combat tracker data. you gonna use gear that increases magic attack because the tracker told you so, when you should be wearing gear that increases casting speed. Sadly the truth is im pretty sure they are trying to say that any information you want to know can be found through tracker and not "playing the game" by uploading your information into it. Granted you will still need to do test different things before you can get the information from it. And it is easier to read it from a tracker than do the work yourself. So you can just see what is giving you the highest dmg output and saving your mana. Trackers make games easier and allow people to find out things much faster. Tracks are garbage and just lead to more speed running of content and a handicap people rely on.
Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. Yeah I do think that the 64 class model will, hopefully, give us variations in playstyle within the same archetype and have different bis items/stats of each class Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it... How do you know what is best? Combat trackers in pvp can be good to see what happened and what spell/debuff your opponent used and timings. But since pvp is so dynamic and extremely situational, it can be very difficult to determine what is "best". From what I know, combat trackers are mostly used for PvE Content, but I'm also mostly a PvE player. how do I know whats best? by playing the game, knowing how stats work, pvping a lot, talking to experienced players, etc
Mag7spy wrote: » Sadly the truth is im pretty sure they are trying to say that any information you want to know can be found through tracker and not "playing the game" by uploading your information into it. Granted you will still need to do test different things before you can get the information from it. And it is easier to read it from a tracker than do the work yourself. So you can just see what is giving you the highest dmg output and saving your mana. Trackers make games easier and allow people to find out things much faster. Tracks are garbage and just lead to more speed running of content and a handicap people rely on.
