SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. You've never been on the internet if you think a group of people can all look at something and agree what happened. The whole point of the log is so they can put in the work. Otherwise we just get more of "you claiming nobody else knows what they're looking at".
Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. Yeah you just suck or are trolling. But you've irritated my group enough that I'm shifting the usual way, have fun with them instead today. Anyone who thinks that people who use logs/replays to work out stuff are less social and more toxic, can't be counted on for much in tough games.
Mag7spy wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. You've never been on the internet if you think a group of people can all look at something and agree what happened. The whole point of the log is so they can put in the work. Otherwise we just get more of "you claiming nobody else knows what they're looking at". The point of the log is to reduce work and make things faster else people would use it.
Mag7spy wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. You've never been on the internet if you think a group of people can all look at something and agree what happened. The whole point of the log is so they can put in the work. Otherwise we just get more of "you claiming nobody else knows what they're looking at". The point of the log is to reduce work and make things faster else people wouldn't use it.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. You've never been on the internet if you think a group of people can all look at something and agree what happened. The whole point of the log is so they can put in the work. Otherwise we just get more of "you claiming nobody else knows what they're looking at". The point of the log is to reduce work and make things faster else people wouldn't use it. Oh, so you are against combat logs and such. That makes so much more sense now. I admit to being entirely foolish enough to think that somehow you were making a real argument that logs are fine but trackers are bad, but you just don't like people having data.
rikardp98 wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. You've never been on the internet if you think a group of people can all look at something and agree what happened. The whole point of the log is so they can put in the work. Otherwise we just get more of "you claiming nobody else knows what they're looking at". The point of the log is to reduce work and make things faster else people would use it. The point of a good combat log is to compile the combat data in a readable and effective way. Instead of having to do it by recording screen and the rewatching it to do calculations by hand (pen and paper).
Scarctic wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » When we play a game we can only guess at the underlying mechanics, ie: "How the game actually works". The only way to find out for sure is through testing. All the combat tracker is doing is visually displaying our tests. Every fight you do is a test of the game systems. Once we understand how the game works, we can design builds and arrange tradeoffs. Without this knowledge it is all guesswork and likely wrong. I've been advocating for target dummies and trackers on multiple threads but just get brushed off... Shrug. Don't know how many hours ive spent in games on dummies with trackers tweaking builds and seeing dmg profile responses. Then trading off some dmg here and there for some versatility in order to make a good 2v2 build, or battleground build, or open world build, or raid build. So, Intrepid is wrong, wanting their players to actually play their game? Instead, you bake your huge cockie in a testing environment rather than going out in the world and enjoying combat, gameplay, and time with your friends. Getting brushed off on multiple occasions means you do something wrong or it isn't relevant for others. Make your exact builds, juggle 90% of your time with math, numbers, graphs, and 3rd party tools but don't force your playstyle indirectly on other players who want to have fun with in-house gameplay mechanics. There are reasons why Intrepid doesn't want to bother with it, accept it!... all of you.
Xeeg wrote: » When we play a game we can only guess at the underlying mechanics, ie: "How the game actually works". The only way to find out for sure is through testing. All the combat tracker is doing is visually displaying our tests. Every fight you do is a test of the game systems. Once we understand how the game works, we can design builds and arrange tradeoffs. Without this knowledge it is all guesswork and likely wrong. I've been advocating for target dummies and trackers on multiple threads but just get brushed off... Shrug. Don't know how many hours ive spent in games on dummies with trackers tweaking builds and seeing dmg profile responses. Then trading off some dmg here and there for some versatility in order to make a good 2v2 build, or battleground build, or open world build, or raid build.
Mag7spy wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. You've never been on the internet if you think a group of people can all look at something and agree what happened. The whole point of the log is so they can put in the work. Otherwise we just get more of "you claiming nobody else knows what they're looking at". The point of the log is to reduce work and make things faster else people would use it. The point of a good combat log is to compile the combat data in a readable and effective way. Instead of having to do it by recording screen and the rewatching it to do calculations by hand (pen and paper). Personal only and hand and paper is what you should do. It means more work going in and some people will be known for that. Everyone will find out different things and theorycraft on it. When we are getting to the point of some program reading insane detailed analytics and that is what is doing all the work so you can figure things out faster and alone. That is a issue to me that leads to less social interaction, allows you to run content faster, allows you to optimize your build faster, etc. Respect for the journey is loss and you are effectively just being a half cyborg at that point. The next level becomes AI being very effective in giving exact answers instantly. Which all this gets deeper, lopng story short you aren't actually clearing content yourself.
JustVine wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. You've never been on the internet if you think a group of people can all look at something and agree what happened. The whole point of the log is so they can put in the work. Otherwise we just get more of "you claiming nobody else knows what they're looking at". The point of the log is to reduce work and make things faster else people wouldn't use it. "People shouldn't wear glasses, it makes it faster and easier to see the stuff on screen." It doesn't automatically problem solve to have transparent information about enemies. It doesn't even really make it 'easier' unless we count 'putting glasses on' instead of squinting making math or tactical problems 'easier'. I am glad modern designers have moved towards data transparency. Less time wasted on arguing with otherwise reasonable people who just forgot to put their glasses on. Less toxic.
NiKr wrote: » In other words, if a fire mob hits you with fire and a fire mage hits you with fire, should the log say "you received fire dmg" or should it say "you received dmg from this source", but it'd be on you to know what type of dmg that source puts out? Cause I want full transparency on pve side (with types/passives/etc shown in the mob nameplate), while barely any transparency on the pvp side. So imo the log should say the latter sentence.
NiKr wrote: » I forget if I've asked this before but, @Azherae what's your group's stance on pvp info in the logs? In other words, if a fire mob hits you with fire and a fire mage hits you with fire, should the log say "you received fire dmg" or should it say "you received dmg from this source", but it'd be on you to know what type of dmg that source puts out? Cause I want full transparency on pve side (with types/passives/etc shown in the mob nameplate), while barely any transparency on the pvp side. So imo the log should say the latter sentence.
Mag7spy wrote: » JustVine wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. You've never been on the internet if you think a group of people can all look at something and agree what happened. The whole point of the log is so they can put in the work. Otherwise we just get more of "you claiming nobody else knows what they're looking at". The point of the log is to reduce work and make things faster else people wouldn't use it. "People shouldn't wear glasses, it makes it faster and easier to see the stuff on screen." It doesn't automatically problem solve to have transparent information about enemies. It doesn't even really make it 'easier' unless we count 'putting glasses on' instead of squinting making math or tactical problems 'easier'. I am glad modern designers have moved towards data transparency. Less time wasted on arguing with otherwise reasonable people who just forgot to put their glasses on. Less toxic. Its not glasses. Its more like if you lost your eyes, and replaced it with a android eye that tells you all details of information you do instantly and brought it into a game. Glasses is a disingenuous comparison because you are still sing your eye site to figure things out and not given bonus information. That are you are just so reliant on chrome you are about to take a cyber psychosis hit.
Noaani wrote: » The point of combat logs is to be able to look at things after the fact. Any information that players have access to should be included in the combat log.
Noaani wrote: » Also, a mobs nameplate isn't (or shouldn't be) big enough to contain the information you are talking about here.
GrandSerpent wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. I don't see how it matters whether people get information about a game's systems by manually punching numbers into a spreadsheet versus just looking at a log file. People are going to do it either way. The only thing that making the process more tedious actually achieves is making it harder for people to theorycraft and compare their data, which doesn't exactly help encourage an active community.
NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » The point of combat logs is to be able to look at things after the fact. Any information that players have access to should be included in the combat log. To me this is a battle of information. If I somehow know that xxxPWNERxxx has fire attribute on his arrows (in case it doesn't show it visually for whatever reason) and then I see "xxxPWNERxxx dealt 1k dmg to you" - I'll know that it was fire dmg and will protect myself accordingly in the future (or I would've been protected already, but you get my point). But if PWNER doesn't know my attribute of attack - he won't be able to protect himself as easily. You said quite a lot in the past that "a good player is someone who plays the game well across all of its mediums". Having info on people is one of those mediums. Selling such info could be very very profitable and could also lead to internal drama and discord. The log telling me "this source dealt this particular type of dmg" would completely remove that kind of interaction. Noaani wrote: » Also, a mobs nameplate isn't (or shouldn't be) big enough to contain the information you are talking about here. This is where THE MIGHTY POWER OF ICONS comes into play
Mag7spy wrote: » GrandSerpent wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. I don't see how it matters whether people get information about a game's systems by manually punching numbers into a spreadsheet versus just looking at a log file. People are going to do it either way. The only thing that making the process more tedious actually achieves is making it harder for people to theorycraft and compare their data, which doesn't exactly help encourage an active community. Being more difficult means people will be more actively doing it or talking to people and sharing things. Being easier means you just look something up and don't need to talk to people. That is the short form. IE i need to know something I just search it. There isn't a desire to rely on your group or community to talk directly and figure out the answers together.
Mag7spy wrote: » GrandSerpent wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction. I don't see how it matters whether people get information about a game's systems by manually punching numbers into a spreadsheet versus just looking at a log file. People are going to do it either way. The only thing that making the process more tedious actually achieves is making it harder for people to theorycraft and compare their data, which doesn't exactly help encourage an active community. Being more difficult means people will be more actively doing it or talking to people and sharing things. Being easier means you just look something up and don't need to talk to people. There isn't a desire to rely on your group or community to talk directly and figure out the answers together.
