Supporting PvE Raiders in Ashes

Noaani wrote: »

There won't be PvP or PvE specific stats on gear, but if a given item is as useful in PvP as it is in PvE, then one aspect of the game will be lacking.

Could you expand on why you think it would? Iirc FF11 had player-like abilities on mobs (don't remember if we've discussed this for EQ2), so wouldn't the same design in Ashes remove the issue of "gear gotta be tuned to different content differently"?

And at that point it'd just be about making good abilities overall and combining them in pve in a logical but complex way.

Noaani wrote: »

An example from another thread is that it is unlikely that mana regen will be needed in PvP. If it isn't needed in PvE, then either mana is pointless, or PvE is too short.

I've been skipping majority of discussions lately, but where was this? Cause, INTREPID YOU BETTER LISTEN, we definitely need mana management in pvp. From both sides of the fight too.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

There won't be PvP or PvE specific stats on gear, but if a given item is as useful in PvP as it is in PvE, then one aspect of the game will be lacking.

Could you expand on why you think it would? Iirc FF11 had player-like abilities on mobs (don't remember if we've discussed this for EQ2), so wouldn't the same design in Ashes remove the issue of "gear gotta be tuned to different content differently"?

And at that point it'd just be about making good abilities overall and combining them in pve in a logical but complex way.

Noaani wrote: »

An example from another thread is that it is unlikely that mana regen will be needed in PvP. If it isn't needed in PvE, then either mana is pointless, or PvE is too short.

I've been skipping majority of discussions lately, but where was this? Cause, INTREPID YOU BETTER LISTEN, we definitely need mana management in pvp. From both sides of the fight too.

Nah, overall, Noaani is right, generally you will have different goals for the situations, so the only way a 'good PvP' item would be similar to a 'good PvE' item would be if the PvE was a very different type than what you find in most MMOs.

This is a thing that basically only TL and FFXI can do consistently because of their pacing. It wouldn't fit for Ashes unless it was trying to be more like those games, which seems unlikely given everything we know.

But hey, in two weeks we'll be able to say with at least a bit more certainty. Frame data and all.

Kaseual

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i prefer something like baium, anthars or valakas and with no player limit. you have to fight outside the boss lair for the right to get in, then whoever can get in when the boss spawns gets in and tries to kill it.

In other words, you want your PvE to be determined by PvP.

well, its a pvx game. besides, a lot of the PVP is already determined by pve. also, nothing guarantees that you can even do the boss after you are already inside. you are just fighting for the right to be inside.

additionally, after the boss wakes up, no one else can get in. This even makes it more challenging than your typical pve instance where you can wipe and try again 345745 times. there arent second chances here. you would have to win the PVP again.

There are two ways this could go. Either the developers tune the content for PvP players - as content in Archeage (including it's instanced content) was, or it is tuned as PvE content.

If it is tuned as PvE content, PvP players with a PvP spec and PvP gear will have literally no shot at it (in exactly the same way PvE players with PvE specs and PvE gear will have no shot against PvP players).

Thus, the only viable way to ever get a kill is to have some of your guild/alliance dealing with the PvP, while some deals with the PvE. If this is the case, you would deal with that PvP constantly, until the encounter is dead (you have people there to only do this).

On the other hand, if it is tuned for PvP players in PvP spec/gear, it will probably be killed first pull - and only PvP players will give a shit about the game.

plot twist: there isn't pvp or pve gear, just gear that is the same for both scenarios (what matters is your stats and there isn't a pve stat or a PVP stat/resilience or whatever)

In other thread you just said yourself that what combat tracker might tell you to be the best spec in one scenario (hitting some target for a minute in your example), might not be the best spec in other scenario (PVP). Which is true, and this applies to PVE and PVP specs as well, as Noaani said. Just switch the target in your example to some PVE encounter.

Before this I've thought that you should be able to re-spec only at NPC in node, but this issue that Noaani brought might have changed my mind. Could this issue be resolved by allowing players to re-spec upon entering the instanced PVE encounter? Also players would possibly need to carry other set of gear with them.

Azherae wrote: »

so the only way a 'good PvP' item would be similar to a 'good PvE' item would be if the PvE was a very different type than what you find in most MMOs.

Once again I fall prey to my yearning for a game that cannot be :'(

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

so the only way a 'good PvP' item would be similar to a 'good PvE' item would be if the PvE was a very different type than what you find in most MMOs.

Once again I fall prey to my earning for a game that cannot be :'(

You can join me on the Copium train that someday someone will make it (or TL will get expanded properly somehow, as I've said, it's quite close).

Also there's no specific reason Ashes cannot do it, it's just that there's very little incentive to do it, especially now. I guess we can just hope that Steven is far more like you than has even been shown so far (or really likes the design ethos of MOBAs enough to know which parts to grab).

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

so the only way a 'good PvP' item would be similar to a 'good PvE' item would be if the PvE was a very different type than what you find in most MMOs.

Once again I fall prey to my yearning for a game that cannot be :'(

See, I consider this to be a good thing.

I don't want my PvP and PvE to feel the same. I don't want to spec and gear the same for both.

Each is it's own thing that is enjoyable for what it is, but each is only really enjoyable when it is at it's best (shit PvP is shit, shit PvE is shit).

I'd much rather a game wanting both PvP and PvE in their game develop each to be the best they individually can (not that this seems to be what Intrepid is doing), and give players freedom when creating character spec's and gear to have builds for each.

As to why I think mana regen would be more useful in PvE than PvP - in PvP you *can* just leave the engagement area to replenish mana. In PvE, you can't do this. I've yet to play a game where both of these things were not true - you have always been able to get away from the PvP engagement area, but are not always able to remove yourself from PvE combat without being killed.

This doesn't mean mana regen would be useless in PvP, just that it would be essential in top end PvE but would never be essential in PvP.

Noaani wrote: »

I'd much rather a game wanting both PvP and PvE in their game develop each to be the best they individually can (not that this seems to be what Intrepid is doing), and give players freedom when creating character spec's and gear to have builds for each.

And to me that is simply not pvx, because changing my entire damn build just to fit the situation is the same thing as completely separating the content. I can completely understand that with instanced pve + arena pvp, but not in a game like Ashes (which is why Steven is just like me frfr

Noaani wrote: »

As to why I think mana regen would be more useful in PvE than PvP - in PvP you *can* just leave the engagement area to replenish mana. In PvE, you can't do this. I've yet to play a game where both of these things were not true - you have always been able to get away from the PvP engagement area, but are not always able to remove yourself from PvE combat without being killed.

I assume you're talking about purely instanced pve here and open field pvp. Cause my experience is literally the opposite

Don't remember a single time where people could just regen their mana in pvp (obviously, unless the enemy was dumb as bricks) and don't remember a single pve fight (instanced included) where mana couldn't be regened in the corner of the room while the boss is aggroed in the other corner.

Did instances in AA always cover the entire room in aoes/hazards throughout the entire fight? Cause obviously EQ2 must have, but AA seems like a way weaker pve game, so I'm curious if it did.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'd much rather a game wanting both PvP and PvE in their game develop each to be the best they individually can (not that this seems to be what Intrepid is doing), and give players freedom when creating character spec's and gear to have builds for each.

And to me that is simply not pvx, because changing my entire damn build just to fit the situation is the same thing as completely separating the content. I can completely understand that with instanced pve + arena pvp, but not in a game like Ashes (which is why Steven is just like me frfr ).

I *STRONGLY* disagree.

In top end PvE, you need to tailor your build to the content you are running. Most raid dungeons would see most players in the raid take along a different spec. Many of them would require multiple people respec mid dungeon for a specific fight. This is a massive part of how PvE content retains variety.

Based on that, I don't just want a PvE and a PvP spec and gear set, my expectation is that I will have a spec for if I am on the attacking side on a siege, a spec for if I am on the defending side, a spec for if I am attacking a caravan, a spec for if I am defending a caravan, a spec for if I am wanting open world PvP, a spec for if I am planning on being in the open world but want to avoid PvP, a spec for if I want to be a mureder hobo, a spec for if I want to be a bounty hunter, a spec for the open seas, a spec for guild and node wars (I would expect these to be similar enough to use the same spec).

Quite honestly, if each of these PvP scenarios are so similar that you would want to run the same spec for each of them, then what is the point in them existing? The entire point of each of these is to have different content experiences - and different content should suggest a different spec.

Thus, I fully expect to also have a range of different spec's for PvP, as I would expect for PvE.

This isn't making the game "less PvX". If anything, it is making PvP more like PvE, which one would argue makes the game even more PvX than if the games PvP didn't ask for multiple specs based on the situation.

I assume you're talking about purely instanced pve here and open field pvp. Cause my experience is literally the opposite Don't remember a single time where people could just regen their mana in pvp (obviously, unless the enemy was dumb as bricks) and don't remember a single pve fight (instanced included) where mana couldn't be regened in the corner of the room while the boss is aggroed in the other corner.

Did instances in AA always cover the entire room in aoes/hazards throughout the entire fight? Cause obviously EQ2 must have, but AA seems like a way weaker pve game, so I'm curious if it did.

AA didn't have encounters that lasted long enough to find out.

And yes, in EQ2, even open world encounters would prevent you from leaving combat without being killed.

Once you are "in combat" with an open world raid encounter, the only way you get become "out of combat" (and thus gain out of combat mana/HP regen) is if you die, zone in to a different zone, or the encounter resets. Most open world raid encounters had AoE's that were zone wide, but only on the specific raid that was attacking them (could only be one raid at a time). Thus, if you attempted to run to the nearest zone, unless you had healers supporting you, you were probably going to die.

This meant that there was inpractice no viable method for dropping combat to regen faster.

On the other hand, in PvP, I've always seem this as being possible. Obviously Archeage is my main experience for large scale PvP, and in that game there was always a front line of the factions involved. The healers were obviously usually behind this front line, and if you moved yourself just past the healers, you were almost always able to find a way to get out of combat for a few seconds to regen mana faster.

While I don't know what the requirements to get out of combat in L2 were, every photo you've posted of PvP in that game suggests to me there would be a way to get out of combat fairly easily to regen some mana if you needed to do so. The only way I could see it not being possible is if you remained in combat if someone in your group or raid nearby remained in combat - but I have yet to play a game with a requirement that is like this, every game I have played had individual requirements (often as simple as not hitting or being hit for 15 seconds).

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'd much rather a game wanting both PvP and PvE in their game develop each to be the best they individually can (not that this seems to be what Intrepid is doing), and give players freedom when creating character spec's and gear to have builds for each.

And to me that is simply not pvx, because changing my entire damn build just to fit the situation is the same thing as completely separating the content. I can completely understand that with instanced pve + arena pvp, but not in a game like Ashes (which is why Steven is just like me frfr ).

Noaani wrote: »

As to why I think mana regen would be more useful in PvE than PvP - in PvP you *can* just leave the engagement area to replenish mana. In PvE, you can't do this. I've yet to play a game where both of these things were not true - you have always been able to get away from the PvP engagement area, but are not always able to remove yourself from PvE combat without being killed.

I assume you're talking about purely instanced pve here and open field pvp. Cause my experience is literally the opposite Don't remember a single time where people could just regen their mana in pvp (obviously, unless the enemy was dumb as bricks) and don't remember a single pve fight (instanced included) where mana couldn't be regened in the corner of the room while the boss is aggroed in the other corner.

Did instances in AA always cover the entire room in aoes/hazards throughout the entire fight? Cause obviously EQ2 must have, but AA seems like a way weaker pve game, so I'm curious if it did.

And this is the design/pacing difference in question, and why L2 'can only be merged' with FFXI and like... Neverwinter sort of.

You can regen your MP, positionally, quite easily in FFXI and TL. What you can't do is 'find the time to do that' because everyone's input is required often, this is even somewhat true of Mages.

And similarly, in FFXI PvP, it's easy to prevent you from doing this by having someone throw a bunch of long duration DoT on the people you don't want doing this, since even if they then use Stoneskin to allow themselves to rest for MP, you can see that they're doing that and react accordingly.

The different games all went in vastly different directions from their EQ1 baseline. Which is why we have to hope that Steven or the design team clear this up for us at some point.

Noaani wrote: »

Based on that, I don't just want a PvE and a PvP spec and gear set, my expectation is that I will have a spec for if I am on the attacking side on a siege, a spec for if I am on the defending side, a spec for if I am attacking a caravan, a spec for if I am defending a caravan, a spec for if I am wanting open world PvP, a spec for if I am planning on being in the open world but want to avoid PvP, a spec for if I want to be a mureder hobo, a spec for if I want to be a bounty hunter, a spec for the open seas, a spec for guild and node wars (I would expect these to be similar enough to use the same spec).

I feel like you're talking about changing a few gear pieces for each situation, while I'm talking about a whole revamp of your character - class, augments, tattoos, full gear change.

To me, changing a gear piece or two is not a respec. And if you did mean the kind of changes I mentioned - I don't think we can do that on the go in Ashes.

Noaani wrote: »

While I don't know what the requirements to get out of combat in L2 were, every photo you've posted of PvP in that game suggests to me there would be a way to get out of combat fairly easily to regen some mana if you needed to do so. The only way I could see it not being possible is if you remained in combat if someone in your group or raid nearby remained in combat - but I have yet to play a game with a requirement that is like this, every game I have played had individual requirements (often as simple as not hitting or being hit for 15 seconds).

Azherae wrote: »

And this is the design/pacing difference in question, and why L2 'can only be merged' with FFXI and like... Neverwinter sort of.

You can regen your MP, positionally, quite easily in FFXI and TL. What you can't do is 'find the time to do that' because everyone's input is required often, this is even somewhat true of Mages.

So yeah, it's about L2's pace of things. Mana regen is abysmally slow even out of combat, so "exiting combat to regen a bit" usually means death of your party or completely meaningless amount of regen.

Like, breaks between pve pulls are usually a few minutes, if the pull depletes all your mana (usually the case on lower lvls during aoe mage farming).

So in my experience I cannot recall a single player who'd just go "ay dudes, I gotta regen my mana, so yall keep fighting at a number disadvantage while I sit on my ass for 5 minutes or so"

This is also the reason why I kept telling mag that I want pvp to completely use up your resources, in that resurrection thread. I'm used to pvps going not only till you run out of mana, but sometimes even beyond that, if the dps from either side dips below the rare party heal from the healers (a rare occurrence, but still).

And this is also why I want deep, extensive and complex mana gameplay between all archetypes. And I want the same in pve, which would bring both closer together class-balance-wise.

NiKr wrote: »

So in my experience I cannot recall a single player who'd just go "ay dudes, I gotta regen my mana, so yall keep fighting at a number disadvantage while I sit on my ass for 5 minutes or so"

This is also the reason why I kept telling mag that I want pvp to completely use up your resources, in that resurrection thread. I'm used to pvps going not only till you run out of mana, but sometimes even beyond that, if the dps from either side dips below the rare party heal from the healers (a rare occurrence, but still).

And this is also why I want deep, extensive and complex mana gameplay between all archetypes. And I want the same in pve, which would bring both closer together class-balance-wise.

And yet there's no reason this couldn't happen. Because if you have tactical combat in smaller scale or well-organized larger scale, then the magic users on either side are doing their best to 'last longer than the other before they have to fall back or start considering it'.

Basically, if the Mages on both sides run out of Mana at similar times, then there's no numbers disadvantage if they go to try to regain it. They're 'both at reduced capacity' anyway, so choosing to try to fall back and rest/take no action is at least a reasonable consideration.

At least 50% of Sevarog teamfight skill/FFXI PvP WHM skill is 'knowing exactly when to disengage to get a few more MP back so you are over the threshold needed for the next key ability'. I'm not saying (nor expecting) this level of depth from Ashes, just pointing out that with sufficiently tight design, you can have 'tactical retreat for Mana regain' which affects both sides somewhat equally.

Azherae wrote: »

Basically, if the Mages on both sides run out of Mana at similar times, then there's no numbers disadvantage if they go to try to regain it. They're 'both at reduced capacity' anyway, so choosing to try to fall back and rest/take no action is at least a reasonable consideration.

When mages run out of mana melees kill them. And if there's no melees on the field at that point - someone has failed in the bigger control of the fight.

Don't remember if I've ever experienced a moment where both sides were purely mages and both ran out of mana at the same time, but that's probably due to mages being quite op in L2 and support classes being melee dudes, so either one side managed to wipe their enemies before mana ran out or the melee supports cleaned up the manaless mages.

We don't know how AoC's archetypes will be designed, but considering that everyone can use whichever weapon, I'd assume that manaless fights will just turn to full-out brawls, but I personally don't expect good pvpers to ever let their enemies "just disengage and regen mana".

Though again, that's an assumption that mana takes a fair bit of time to regen naturally (Steven's beloved "sit in a circle to regen" kinda implies this will be the case?). Obviously using some kind of ability that boosts your regen, but requires you to not be hit for several seconds, is a whole different ballgame and would simply require very good positioning and enemy zoning, but that's a discussion for a waaaay later day.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Basically, if the Mages on both sides run out of Mana at similar times, then there's no numbers disadvantage if they go to try to regain it. They're 'both at reduced capacity' anyway, so choosing to try to fall back and rest/take no action is at least a reasonable consideration.

When mages run out of mana melees kill them. And if there's no melees on the field at that point - someone has failed in the bigger control of the fight.

Don't remember if I've ever experienced a moment where both sides were purely mages and both ran out of mana at the same time, but that's probably due to mages being quite op in L2 and support classes being melee dudes, so either one side managed to wipe their enemies before mana ran out or the melee supports cleaned up the manaless mages.

We don't know how AoC's archetypes will be designed, but considering that everyone can use whichever weapon, I'd assume that manaless fights will just turn to full-out brawls, but I personally don't expect good pvpers to ever let their enemies "just disengage and regen mana".

Though again, that's an assumption that mana takes a fair bit of time to regen naturally (Steven's beloved "sit in a circle to regen" kinda implies this will be the case?). Obviously using some kind of ability that boosts your regen, but requires you to not be hit for several seconds, is a whole different ballgame and would simply require very good positioning and enemy zoning, but that's a discussion for a waaaay later day.

But how do you kill them? If my mage runs out of mana in a Pred match, and I'm the tank, I'm stopping you from killing them by any means I can manage. I'm setting up whatever the situation that will let them regain their mana is.

Or I'm making it so that you TRYING to hurt them to disrupt their mana regeneration is a death sentence for you. Is L2 combat so simplistic that this isn't possible? I know this can be done in FF and AA, at least, and I've seen a similar thing done in TL (it's not the same exactly for many reasons).

To put some really precise numbers on that, in a full serious combat, I expect a mage that falls back to be able to remain unhurt for around 15 seconds if the fight has reached the point where their mana is low.

Ashes claims to have a TTK of 30-60, but unless that gets linearly reduced by focusing down one person, teamfights must last around 2.5 minutes total. A Mage could definitely find a gap or two.

This is slightly a derail so to connect it back, if you can very easily disrupt Mana Regen (tactically, not mechanically) in Ashes, then the PvE part of the PvX, particularly on big bosses, will be trash. This is technically how I know about it/where you see it in TL. TL's boss PvX involves 'being protected in this way'.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Based on that, I don't just want a PvE and a PvP spec and gear set, my expectation is that I will have a spec for if I am on the attacking side on a siege, a spec for if I am on the defending side, a spec for if I am attacking a caravan, a spec for if I am defending a caravan, a spec for if I am wanting open world PvP, a spec for if I am planning on being in the open world but want to avoid PvP, a spec for if I want to be a mureder hobo, a spec for if I want to be a bounty hunter, a spec for the open seas, a spec for guild and node wars (I would expect these to be similar enough to use the same spec).

I feel like you're talking about changing a few gear pieces for each situation, while I'm talking about a whole revamp of your character - class, augments, tattoos, full gear change.

To me, changing a gear piece or two is not a respec. And if you did mean the kind of changes I mentioned - I don't think we can do that on the go in Ashes.

To me, changing a few pieces of gear is also not a respec.

I'm talking about full respec's, which I would assume I understand in a similar way to how you understand it.

One encounter from EQ2 saw players equip a specific costume, and then get swallowed by the boss mob. We would then have to solo a mob in it's stomach in order to loot a specific item that the mob carried. Then we would get vomited out, and could use that item to deal a massive amount of damage to the mob (the raids normal damage was usually about a match for the mobs regen).

This encounter would require me to take on a spec that could solo a mob - so some CC, some survivability and direct damage rather than DoT damage. It would also require me to take on any passive that could increase the damage of using that item.

However, the mob directly prior to this one in the raid progression at hand was all about mana. Not just mana preservation, but knowing exactly how much you had. If you went 1% above or below a specific threshold, the raid would wipe. So, this build was all about being able to get your mana down to about 60% very quickly, but then being able to hold it between 60 and 35% while still being able to perform your role.

Needless to say, these encounters that were one after the other in terms of progression required very different specs - to the point where less than 10% of all points were allocated in the same place for each fight, and almost no gear was the same between the two.

This kind of thing was normal. I picked these two fights purely because it is fairly easy to explain how different the spec's for each fight need to be to someone that understands MMO's in general, but not the specific game (or the specific class, more accurately).

Azherae wrote: »

To put some really precise numbers on that, in a full serious combat, I expect a mage that falls back to be able to remain unhurt for around 15 seconds if the fight has reached the point where their mana is low.

This kinda comes back to the speed of mana regen. Yes, you could step back for roughly that amount of time (potentially even more), while also being protected in some way (CCs on attackers or heavy def buffs on you), but at that time scale your regen is utterly meaningless, especially considering that L2 had a "combat stance" that took several seconds to come out of, so your non-combat regen time would be even shorter.

You might gain enough mana for a spell or two, but the longer the ttk - the less those would matter. And like I said, if there's an ability that lets you regen way faster if you're "out of combat" - I'm totally fine with that and definitely expect high lvl players to utilize this to the best of their abilities (while enemies try their best to disrupt that of course).

Azherae wrote: »

This is slightly a derail so to connect it back, if you can very easily disrupt Mana Regen (tactically, not mechanically) in Ashes, then the PvE part of the PvX, particularly on big bosses, will be trash. This is technically how I know about it/where you see it in TL. TL's boss PvX involves 'being protected in this way'.

L2 had a separate "mana support" for this kind of thing. Mage parties would have a default proper healer and a mana support (who has some weaker healing abilities) to give the party as much mana-time as possible. And this class had the very ability I was referencing (the main healer had it too, but that was mainly used as a last resort or if mana sup could sustain healing).

The "ManaHealOvertime" being 3 seconds is I thiiiink a mistake, cause iirc this ability regened you throughout the full 30s, so the full regen was x10 of what this says in the rightmost column.

If mages will have mana supporting abilities in Ashes, I fully expect mana-heavy party builds to have a full mana support mage, who'd be hanging waaay back and would be able to make the overall mana gameplay more balanced.

Noaani wrote: »

This kind of thing was normal. I picked these two fights purely because it is fairly easy to explain how different the spec's for each fight need to be to someone that understands MMO's in general, but not the specific game (or the specific class, more accurately).

A full gear change would be at the lowest possible limit of what I would consider a "respec". I've kinda done this in L2 as well in certain situations, even with its limited gearing options.

If we will have super varied and super customizable gear in Ashes (which seems to be the direction rn) I do expect people to carry multiples sets of gear on them at all times. But then it's gonna be a question of when can you change it and whether you can change it mid-fight.

Cause if we can't - it won't be a pvx setup. We'll have pve sets that pvers wear to the boss farm and we'll have pvp sets that potential attackers wear to remove those pvers from those boss farms. And neither side will be able to benefit fully, cause pvers will lose to pvpers, while the latter won't be able to finish the boss. And I feel like this will either lead to "unkillable" bosses or to the simplification of them.

And that's why I want mobs to be closer to players, when it comes to their skill-/type-set. Though this mainly comes back to my unreasonable desires for all players to be pvxers and to always fight back when attacked, so I doubt we'd ever see this in practice, even if design allows it.

And this is the difference.

The way to get mana back in FFXI is to '/heal', literally, there's a command to enter a resting stance that gives you mana every X period of time (it's long to start up because it's a PvE-mostly game). But the only requirements for you to /heal are that you are not currently taking damage and that your weapon is sheathed.

There is even gear and food/abilities to increase the MP regained from one 'tick' of /heal time.

In Predecessor, if you're Jungler, then 'leaving lane to enter jungle' has similar effects, you just duck through the fog wall to regenerate MP based on missing MP, and again, there are abilities and items to increase the number.

It's a tactical decision to figure out 'when you can afford to do those things'. In Ashes PvX around a boss that doesn't just spam AoE, then any similar thing (even just 'stand still and channel to increase MP regen') would be fine.

Up to devs if they care about that sort of thing or not, I'm just used to it myself, even Armored Core can make me 'drop back to regain generator power' (in the old games, not so much the current one).

Azherae wrote: »

The way to get mana back in FFXI is to '/heal', literally, there's a command to enter a resting stance that gives you mana every X period of time (it's long to start up because it's a PvE-mostly game). But the only requirements for you to /heal are that you are not currently taking damage and that your weapon is sheathed.

How fast would this regen you to halfmana (let's say with food)? If speed was class-specific, then what it was for mages. And then, how fast would you go through that mana if you were actively using your usual cycle of abilities?

I'm just thinking in overall terms of encounter pace. I'd imagine Predecessor is faster paced (especially given the "based on missing mp" part), so you would both go through and regen your mana relatively quickly. FF11 seems like a way more methodical game, so I'd imagine the pace was quite slow on both sides.

L2 was more of a bursty game, with super slow regen but real fast usage.

I'd personally prefer if Ashes was somewhere in the middle. And so far it seems like it might be, with the weapon passives and basic attacks mattering, and the long ttk as well.

Azherae wrote: »

Up to devs if they care about that sort of thing or not, I'm just used to it myself, even Armored Core can make me 'drop back to regain generator power' (in the old games, not so much the current one).

I'll finally go back and finish AC6 once I'm done with my current Starfield grind.

Want to make 2024 the year of finished games

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

The way to get mana back in FFXI is to '/heal', literally, there's a command to enter a resting stance that gives you mana every X period of time (it's long to start up because it's a PvE-mostly game). But the only requirements for you to /heal are that you are not currently taking damage and that your weapon is sheathed.

How fast would this regen you to halfmana (let's say with food)? If speed was class-specific, then what it was for mages. And then, how fast would you go through that mana if you were actively using your usual cycle of abilities?

I'm just thinking in overall terms of encounter pace. I'd imagine Predecessor is faster paced (especially given the "based on missing mp" part), so you would both go through and regen your mana relatively quickly. FF11 seems like a way more methodical game, so I'd imagine the pace was quite slow on both sides.

L2 was more of a bursty game, with super slow regen but real fast usage.

I'd personally prefer if Ashes was somewhere in the middle. And so far it seems like it might be, with the weapon passives and basic attacks mattering, and the long ttk as well.

Azherae wrote: »

Up to devs if they care about that sort of thing or not, I'm just used to it myself, even Armored Core can make me 'drop back to regain generator power' (in the old games, not so much the current one).

I'll finally go back and finish AC6 once I'm done with my current Starfield grind.

Want to make 2024 the year of finished games

That's a long explanation so I'll take a bit of time to try to tie back to the thread. The first thing to remember is that FFXI has 3x the TTK of Ashes, because of TP and other things meant to get around the 'dump damage and then wait for cooldowns'.

Slower PvE games tend to be like this because bursty high damage stuff is extra work and not the goal of their design space. So if we have proper PvE 'raids' in Ashes, let's say a max level strong boss takes at least 10m to fall even to a full raid (we can reference the A1 Pyro Dragon for this, etc), the entire point is that you cannot and should not 'just throw abilities at the problem' even if you had enough of them to do so.

This would mean that Mages in Ashes would have periods where they are 'not actively blasting', instead repositioning, waiting for cues and Synergy, etc. If we don't get at least that much, it will be the equivalent of 'going into a fight with full TP on all characters' in FF against a lower HP enemy. Everyone just 'unloads damage up front, then pops defense skills, then unloads damage again when Cooldowns are back'.

If this is all we get, then it doesn't matter. If we get the other type of thing where the encounter isn't really about 'combat' but about 'knowledge' (another thing that happens in bursty/high damage games trying to improve their PvE) then the conversation doesn't matter at all (but I can't imagine this in a PvX game being fun).

So a PvE raid approaching a mob in different game types matters a lot. In Predecessor, if I 'go to take Fangtooth' solo but not as Jungler, I care about my HP more than my MP, but it depends on build. When my opponents show up, I have probably just enough MP to use the few abilities that game gives. But I don't. Someone in the group is meant to tank or disrupt enemy position.

What happens is, one enemy gets disrupted, and you decide if to spend lots of MP to shred them with the hope of killing them. If you succeed, you're at advantage, but only if they didn't get to use their abilities to do a lot of damage to you. You 'removed a person with MP from the fight before they could convert it to damage'.

If you fail, you now have a target that is hard to reach without opening yourself up, who has low HP but lots of MP. HP doesn't matter if they are attacking opportunistically. Etc. I'm sure you're reasonably familiar.

FFXI tends to work exactly the same way, but with the additional factor that MP can be treated similarly. A character that has time to regenerate MP is now 'a target that you must prevent from returning to a state where they have converted time into power'.

So, for example, it's a good idea to kill certain Junglers in Jungle teamfights in Pred because if you fail the kill, they will use their MP to make your fight hard without actually being in danger (Sevarog, Countess). Whereas there are certain ones where you should not care and focus on killing everyone else because you will fail and spend too much MP on them (Khaimera, Greystone). And in turn, you 'counter' Khai and Greystone by 'making sure you regenerate your MP in some way while suppressing and luring them', all standard PvP stuff.

Pred fights between people who don't understand tactics are very brawly with little need for MP regen. But even the actual brawlers of the game have to care about it in an even fight, whether it's because they need to prevent the enemy from doing it, or because they need to ensure their own team manages.

This is what I expect to see, with the current MP regen rates. And to finally answer your question directly, regenerating 'to full' is not very relevant, as neither game is super 'high numbers big heals'.

For additional clarity, my largest single target Cure spell costs about 1/12th of my MP, and it would take over 30 seconds, for sure, to get enough for just that spell, if I ran completely dry, and used /heal, even with Clear Mind and food.

Sevarog Subjugate (root then slow) costs about 1/12th of my MP in midgame, and would also take 20-30 seconds to get enough for just that ability, if I ran completely dry. The main thing here is ofc that 'one more Cure V' and 'one more Subjugate' are game changers, whereas 'anything else I can do with no mana' may not be.

If I ran out of mana, and my HP is not needed to sponge up enemy mana, I'm best served leaving the fight if I can.