Dygz wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » My opinion this whole time is that if you can't detect it and you can't stop it, then the game designers should embrace it and employ it in their game design. Otherwise, the rules only serve to disadvantage people who follow rules. That's a terrible way to create a rule set and is a failure point in the game design. No. Because that will mean that the devs will design encounters with the expectation that everyone is relying on combat trackers. In an RPG, players should be roleplaying rather than rollplaying. And the devs should design the game for roleplaying, rather than rollplaying. Which is why it's not unusual to ban add-ons.
Xeeg wrote: » My opinion this whole time is that if you can't detect it and you can't stop it, then the game designers should embrace it and employ it in their game design. Otherwise, the rules only serve to disadvantage people who follow rules. That's a terrible way to create a rule set and is a failure point in the game design.
Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago. There is noway to stop AI to play MMOs could become auto battler Pay to levelup like in Eve Or we go in special certified places with special hardware maintained by one anti cheat company. To be clear, when AI's playing games becomes an issue, certifying hardware isn't going to do anything. You can easily get AI playing a game with the game running on certified hardware and the AI running on a different computer. The only real way to prevent AI's playing games in general would be to require everyone to have a camera pointed at them playing, and streaming it to the developer. However, by the time AI is good enough and common enough to play MMO's, it will also be good enough to generate that video in order to cover it's own tracks. So, basically, there is no way at all to stop AI from playing games. All developers can do is design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler. I say special certified places. I imagine them similar to amusement parks, cinemas, casinos... Those would "keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand" (as you said). I am not sure hot to "design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler". You mean without repetitive mindless grind?
Noaani wrote: » Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago. There is noway to stop AI to play MMOs could become auto battler Pay to levelup like in Eve Or we go in special certified places with special hardware maintained by one anti cheat company. To be clear, when AI's playing games becomes an issue, certifying hardware isn't going to do anything. You can easily get AI playing a game with the game running on certified hardware and the AI running on a different computer. The only real way to prevent AI's playing games in general would be to require everyone to have a camera pointed at them playing, and streaming it to the developer. However, by the time AI is good enough and common enough to play MMO's, it will also be good enough to generate that video in order to cover it's own tracks. So, basically, there is no way at all to stop AI from playing games. All developers can do is design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler.
Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago. There is noway to stop AI to play MMOs could become auto battler Pay to levelup like in Eve Or we go in special certified places with special hardware maintained by one anti cheat company.
Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it
Azherae wrote: » Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » @NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago. There is noway to stop AI to play MMOs could become auto battler Pay to levelup like in Eve Or we go in special certified places with special hardware maintained by one anti cheat company. To be clear, when AI's playing games becomes an issue, certifying hardware isn't going to do anything. You can easily get AI playing a game with the game running on certified hardware and the AI running on a different computer. The only real way to prevent AI's playing games in general would be to require everyone to have a camera pointed at them playing, and streaming it to the developer. However, by the time AI is good enough and common enough to play MMO's, it will also be good enough to generate that video in order to cover it's own tracks. So, basically, there is no way at all to stop AI from playing games. All developers can do is design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler. I say special certified places. I imagine them similar to amusement parks, cinemas, casinos... Those would "keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand" (as you said). I am not sure hot to "design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler". You mean without repetitive mindless grind? The most basic thing that would have to be done first: "Don't design stuff where the player is just reacting to things that are visible on screen without making any true decisions." Then: "Don't design stuff that is scripted and does the same things in approximately the same order or timings." And then most important for Ashes: "Don't design stuff so that player Synergies are just part of a 'rotation', even if that 'rotation' differs by which party the player is in." 'AI' is quite good at things where you have to recognize patterns and save internal states and events. It will eventually be good at complex stuff. The ones I have can play certain games, even complex state games, fairly well. But those have also taken years to work out. Basically, AI will always be able to play, but the things listed above drastically change (for now) the amount of effort and time it takes to develop and calibrate one. Even if the game itself isn't super difficult or complicated, requiring people to 'have an intention', then 'observe a semi-random event that affects their intention', then 'take the information from the last 7-10 seconds combined with the outcome of that event, and apply it to their intention', would raise the difficulty of calibrating or training most 'basic AI' enough. It would change the task from 'ok I can just throw a basic Finite State Machine at the problem' up to 'I need thousands of hours of training data before this even starts to do the things I have decided it should do, and I have to set those goals carefully'. This can be achieved without applying the same complexity to the game's internal 'mob AI', because it isn't a 1v1 style game with equalized parameters or any assumption of fairness. At this point, the Tracker is just 'a memory assistant/checker', as it should be.
Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » @NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago. There is noway to stop AI to play MMOs could become auto battler Pay to levelup like in Eve Or we go in special certified places with special hardware maintained by one anti cheat company. To be clear, when AI's playing games becomes an issue, certifying hardware isn't going to do anything. You can easily get AI playing a game with the game running on certified hardware and the AI running on a different computer. The only real way to prevent AI's playing games in general would be to require everyone to have a camera pointed at them playing, and streaming it to the developer. However, by the time AI is good enough and common enough to play MMO's, it will also be good enough to generate that video in order to cover it's own tracks. So, basically, there is no way at all to stop AI from playing games. All developers can do is design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler. I say special certified places. I imagine them similar to amusement parks, cinemas, casinos... Those would "keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand" (as you said). I am not sure hot to "design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler". You mean without repetitive mindless grind?
Noaani wrote: » Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » @NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago. There is noway to stop AI to play MMOs could become auto battler Pay to levelup like in Eve Or we go in special certified places with special hardware maintained by one anti cheat company. To be clear, when AI's playing games becomes an issue, certifying hardware isn't going to do anything. You can easily get AI playing a game with the game running on certified hardware and the AI running on a different computer. The only real way to prevent AI's playing games in general would be to require everyone to have a camera pointed at them playing, and streaming it to the developer. However, by the time AI is good enough and common enough to play MMO's, it will also be good enough to generate that video in order to cover it's own tracks. So, basically, there is no way at all to stop AI from playing games. All developers can do is design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler.
Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » @NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago. There is noway to stop AI to play MMOs could become auto battler Pay to levelup like in Eve Or we go in special certified places with special hardware maintained by one anti cheat company.
Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » @NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » @NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'.
Mag7spy wrote: » @NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it
Iskiab wrote: » This thread still going? There's only 1 answer, have the dps meter. I've played games without them and they're terrible and just as toxic, what happens instead of discriminating against players due to poor dps is discriminating against classes, weapons, whatever else is seen as 'bad'. Thinking dps meters are the issue and everyone will play along nicely accepting of anyone without them is wrong.
Azherae wrote: » Iskiab wrote: » This thread still going? There's only 1 answer, have the dps meter. I've played games without them and they're terrible and just as toxic, what happens instead of discriminating against players due to poor dps is discriminating against classes, weapons, whatever else is seen as 'bad'. Thinking dps meters are the issue and everyone will play along nicely accepting of anyone without them is wrong. This thread is just where the 'overly' engaged forumers put all the stuff that only they're interested in discussing, y'know? We just end up talking about the same things in other threads no one cares about otherwise. So, best to let it all be sucked into the black hole of the Megathread. That said, Mag7's 'discovery' of the AI-infused MSI monitor technically has added some 'real' discussion points to the thread, so I guess 'Mag brought the pop item' this time.
Enigmatic Sage wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Iskiab wrote: » This thread still going? There's only 1 answer, have the dps meter. I've played games without them and they're terrible and just as toxic, what happens instead of discriminating against players due to poor dps is discriminating against classes, weapons, whatever else is seen as 'bad'. Thinking dps meters are the issue and everyone will play along nicely accepting of anyone without them is wrong. This thread is just where the 'overly' engaged forumers put all the stuff that only they're interested in discussing, y'know? We just end up talking about the same things in other threads no one cares about otherwise. So, best to let it all be sucked into the black hole of the Megathread. That said, Mag7's 'discovery' of the AI-infused MSI monitor technically has added some 'real' discussion points to the thread, so I guess 'Mag brought the pop item' this time. A lot of peripherals over the years have given players advantages outside of the games intended TOS. Some monitors allow you to add things like crosshairs, increased FOV with aspects and resolutions, mice and keyboards with macro key bind scripts. Look at how many streamers(and non-streamers) team up and use their team mates stream to essentially screen peak and back seat game them through various competitive games, extraction looters, battle royales, death cams etc. Technology has ruined gaming integrity.
Azherae wrote: » Enigmatic Sage wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Iskiab wrote: » This thread still going? There's only 1 answer, have the dps meter. I've played games without them and they're terrible and just as toxic, what happens instead of discriminating against players due to poor dps is discriminating against classes, weapons, whatever else is seen as 'bad'. Thinking dps meters are the issue and everyone will play along nicely accepting of anyone without them is wrong. This thread is just where the 'overly' engaged forumers put all the stuff that only they're interested in discussing, y'know? We just end up talking about the same things in other threads no one cares about otherwise. So, best to let it all be sucked into the black hole of the Megathread. That said, Mag7's 'discovery' of the AI-infused MSI monitor technically has added some 'real' discussion points to the thread, so I guess 'Mag brought the pop item' this time. A lot of peripherals over the years have given players advantages outside of the games intended TOS. Some monitors allow you to add things like crosshairs, increased FOV with aspects and resolutions, mice and keyboards with macro key bind scripts. Look at how many streamers(and non-streamers) team up and use their team mates stream to essentially screen peak and back seat game them through various competitive games, extraction looters, battle royales, death cams etc. Technology has ruined gaming integrity. Maybe so, but that conclusion relies on three ideals. 1) That it's technology and not 'accessibility' of specific types that did that. 2) That the physical difficulty challenges of the game were intended by the developers of that game (in a way that the peripheral actually bypasses) 3) That gaming 'integrity' was ever a real thing once you left the subculture of 'people who actually kept playing long enough to be talking about it years later on a 'RetroStyle MMO Revival' forum like this one'. This is why this thread keeps going, after all. It's going to come down to what Steven greenlights for PvP content. I don't actually expect that the trackers are going to be a PvE-primary thing, based on what little I've seen of their encounter design. It's PvP where you'll see the larger amounts of tracker/parser usage.
Noaani wrote: » Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Otr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » @NiKr Its happening faster than i expected. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming-monitor-helps-you-cheat-at-league-of-legends-looks-great-doing-it No, that's just basically 'the thing I told you that I can do already', implemented directly into the monitor instead of into a specific piece of inbetween hardware. Now, I agree that it's a big problem simply because 'just buying a monitor' is REALLY accessible relative to what I was talking about, but we're right back to 'the only way to solve this is with proper design, halfassing it will never get you there'. It is perhaps worth pointing out that this specific monitor is one of the things I had in mind in the past when I have said there are many ways of running a combat tracker without using the actual computer that has the game installed. Perhaps now that this has been shown to the public, people (Steven) will get the point that there is nonway to stop combat trackers, and so the best thing he can do for his game is attempt to keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand. You know, like I said four years ago. There is noway to stop AI to play MMOs could become auto battler Pay to levelup like in Eve Or we go in special certified places with special hardware maintained by one anti cheat company. To be clear, when AI's playing games becomes an issue, certifying hardware isn't going to do anything. You can easily get AI playing a game with the game running on certified hardware and the AI running on a different computer. The only real way to prevent AI's playing games in general would be to require everyone to have a camera pointed at them playing, and streaming it to the developer. However, by the time AI is good enough and common enough to play MMO's, it will also be good enough to generate that video in order to cover it's own tracks. So, basically, there is no way at all to stop AI from playing games. All developers can do is design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler. I say special certified places. I imagine them similar to amusement parks, cinemas, casinos... Those would "keep all players on thebsame level in regards to the tools they have on hand" (as you said). I am not sure hot to "design games in a way where AI won't be useful - design games without filler". You mean without repetitive mindless grind? So, basically going back to video game arcades. That would work, but that model would not be able to sustain an MMORPG in the west.
Otr wrote: » The model would work for all competitive games. The link Mag7Spy posted was about LoL
Xeeg wrote: » the raid leader and the other team members can't tell what they are doing?
NiKr wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » the raid leader and the other team members can't tell what they are doing? And why exactly can they not do that? You can see mobs not being CCed, you can see people not being healed, you can see buffs not being on when needed, you can see pretty much all the things you've mentioned - especially if they were called out by the party leaders. The only thing that would be somewhat "invisible" is the personal dps of every character. But that'll be apparent in the result of the encounter. You lost, while everyone played perfectly? Means you didn't have enough dps. And you'd then need to see who does what dmg and see what can be improved (I did this with my L2 guilds even w/o trackers). And until we see hardcore pve and general encounter design (especially in the context of pvx), I'm not even sure dps tracker would even be important.
Dygz wrote: » "Improve for the sake of the team..." means that isn't truly a team. In an RPG, the team should be figuring out how to synergize their abilities to shore up weaknesses and enhance strengths. And with the wide variety of Secondary Archetypes and Augments in Ashes, it should not be necesary to rely on a combat tracker to do that. Group combat should not really be about focusing on improving individual rotations... especially not in an RPG. "Samwise! You are the weakest link! We're kicking you so we can find someone better!"
