So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
I mean, yeah, people do.
It isn't as if wealth is all that hard to transfer - much easier than materials, that's for sure. Since we know that you don't drop gold when you're killed, under any circumstance, and we also know it has no weight, transporting it is easy.
This means all you need to do is convert what ever you plunder in to gold, and then transfer it to your main, potentially just using the mail system (there is no indication that coin can't be mailed as yet). At most, it would be a run across the game world to perform an in person trade - a run that can be done on a neutral alt at level 1 for all it matters. If I had to resort to this, I would run about a third of the way across the map, but in a way where I am not heading directly to my main, and then I would log out. Then I'd log in a few days later and run the next leg, and log out. Then do the last leg a few days later again - this whole process ensures it is literally impossible to be followed, so no one could make the connection at all between that alt and my main - even if they had made the connection between that alt and my bandit alt.
I'm also not sure why you think being on an alt on another continent would see us unprepared for a node war or some such. The profit I am making from robbing your caravans is what is ensuring that I am ready for such things. If anything, I am more prepared for it than someone that is 5 minutes away from the middle of the node gathering resources - all I need to do to get there is log out of my alt and then in on my main and I'm ready to do what ever needs to be done.
The reason it works this way around but not the other is because I can pick and chose when I go out hunting caravans. I can start and stop on a whim.
On the other hand, if you decide you are going to hunt me down, that will take up all of your time for at least a while. If you are running a single caravan, you need to provide it with enough protection to stop me and my guild taking it over, regardless of whether we are even online or not.
The resources needed to protect against bandit type attacks are exponentially greater than the resources those same bandits need to spend. This is just a basic fact that can't be avoided, and has been a part of real war for thousands of years (going at least as far back as Sun Tzu). It isn't something that a game could change if they wanted to unless they gave only the defender unlimited fast travel.
So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
Ah, but does it spark joy?
The demographic of gaming has long since left that space where even MMO players will just 'log in to be social and try to get ahead of everyone else'. We have standards now. Well... some of us.
If this game's gameplay is fun enough, then the fun is the goal.
I'd argue that the Caravan Defenders also have a large risk, since they might spend 20-50 minutes trundling across the landscape in a huge defense group and not get attacked. Now, I'm not one to judge other people's fun, but this sounds like a massive opportunity cost fail.
MMO or not, unless a person's primary fun is just being the winner/ahead of others (and for all y'all like that, more power to you, no sarc), they're going to do all sorts of strange things that the developers of any individual system can't (and shouldn't have to) expect.
This is part of my personal issue with most higher-budget PvP MMOs. They're not good enough to be fun while losing. They're not good enough to be fun when you're average at them.
Meanwhile I can play an unnecessary 30 extra minutes of a known-to-be-long-lost Predecessor match, just because the fights that do happen are not unbalanced enough to quit.
I'd put money on a substantial population of a game like Ashes, in this era, just being bandits for similar reasons, if the game's combat was good enough, because banditry is the 'fun, unpredictable, Combatant Death Penalties Only' type of Tactical(?) PvP.
And when they don't feel like being bandits anymore, they will log to their main and continue their playtime.
Liniker is one of those people that thinks the only valid opinion is exactly the opinion he has.
I wasn't going to say it, but one of the main reasons is because I don't want to lose more brain cells reading your shit, every time you start spamming posts with your nonsense I immediately tune out
So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
I'm also not sure why you think being on an alt on another continent would see us unprepared for a node war or some such. The profit I am making from robbing your caravans is what is ensuring that I am ready for such things. If anything, I am more prepared for it than someone that is 5 minutes away from the middle of the node gathering resources - all I need to do to get there is log out of my alt and then in on my main and I'm ready to do what ever needs to be done.
Hours spent on alt on another part of the map with no fast travel and not dealing with people already fighting in your area = time wasted not being on your main engaging in those things with your already group of people that are fighting you, attacking you.
So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
Ah, but does it spark joy?
The demographic of gaming has long since left that space where even MMO players will just 'log in to be social and try to get ahead of everyone else'. We have standards now. Well... some of us.
If this game's gameplay is fun enough, then the fun is the goal.
I'd argue that the Caravan Defenders also have a large risk, since they might spend 20-50 minutes trundling across the landscape in a huge defense group and not get attacked. Now, I'm not one to judge other people's fun, but this sounds like a massive opportunity cost fail.
MMO or not, unless a person's primary fun is just being the winner/ahead of others (and for all y'all like that, more power to you, no sarc), they're going to do all sorts of strange things that the developers of any individual system can't (and shouldn't have to) expect.
This is part of my personal issue with most higher-budget PvP MMOs. They're not good enough to be fun while losing. They're not good enough to be fun when you're average at them.
Meanwhile I can play an unnecessary 30 extra minutes of a known-to-be-long-lost Predecessor match, just because the fights that do happen are not unbalanced enough to quit.
I'd put money on a substantial population of a game like Ashes, in this era, just being bandits for similar reasons, if the game's combat was good enough, because banditry is the 'fun, unpredictable, Combatant Death Penalties Only' type of Tactical(?) PvP.
And when they don't feel like being bandits anymore, they will log to their main and continue their playtime.
I'm not arguing that bandits won't exist and people won't use them to have fun and loot caravans, but the idea that it's actually optimal to have a bandit guild on the opposite side of the world where your main guild is investing time, energy and resources fighting people over theirs...it just doesn't make much sense. If you're trying to be optimal and maximize your resource output efficiently, especially relative to your peers, your bandit guild would be within range of your main account, impacting people that are hampering your progress. Then you get the farming return you want while also directly impacting them.
This is why these types of guilds are often easy to see who they're affiliated with.
If you just make an alt account for fun then sure, but that's not what we're talking about here.
That theoretical "what if" may also end up "what if not".
There should be some built in game mechanical risk that has nothing to do with a perfect world 'what if' of player response.
So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
I'm also not sure why you think being on an alt on another continent would see us unprepared for a node war or some such. The profit I am making from robbing your caravans is what is ensuring that I am ready for such things. If anything, I am more prepared for it than someone that is 5 minutes away from the middle of the node gathering resources - all I need to do to get there is log out of my alt and then in on my main and I'm ready to do what ever needs to be done.
Hours spent on alt on another part of the map with no fast travel and not dealing with people already fighting in your area = time wasted not being on your main engaging in those things with your already group of people that are fighting you, attacking you.
Keep in mind here, your comment was that being on another continent would keep me away from things happening on my own continent.
If my bandit alt is on my own continent and something happens that needs my attention, I log off and log on to my main to deal with it.
If my bandit is on a different continent and something happens that needs my attention, I log off and log on to my main to deal with it.
My point is, the notion of being on a different continent for what you are talking about literally doesn't matter. In both cases, I wouldn't be dealing with the situation on the bandit alt, and so logging out and in on my main would be required.
Liniker is one of those people that thinks the only valid opinion is exactly the opinion he has.
I wasn't going to say it, but one of the main reasons is because I don't want to lose more brain cells reading your shit, every time you start spamming posts with your nonsense I immediately tune out
its called self-preservation lol
See, what happens is as soon as you are faced with two positions of yours that can't be true, you tune out.
In this thread, it was the notion of players only raiding caravans in their spare time, and the cost of raiding caravans being low.
You are smart enough to know that these two things can't both be true - if the in game cost is low, many players will make it their primary means of income.
Quite honestly, this is all I have ever needed to do to get you to stop engaging in most threads - simply point out where you have conflicting, mutually exclusive thoughts on a topic (you have these on most topics we disagree on).
Rather than face that fact and attempt to form a better, more cohesive opinion, you never fail to just run away.
This is why I can't imagine you being an issue if we were on the same server, making you run would be easy - it seems to be your default move.
Liniker is one of those people that thinks the only valid opinion is exactly the opinion he has.
I wasn't going to say it, but one of the main reasons is because I don't want to lose more brain cells reading your shit, every time you start spamming posts with your nonsense I immediately tune out
its called self-preservation lol
See, what happens is as soon as you are faced with two positions of yours that can't be true, you tune out.
In this thread, it was the notion of players only raiding caravans in their spare time, and the cost of raiding caravans being low.
You are smart enough to know that these two things can't both be true - if the in game cost is low, many players will make it their primary means of income.
Quite honestly, this is all I have ever needed to do to get you to stop engaging in most threads - simply point out where you have conflicting, mutually exclusive thoughts on a topic (you have these on most topics we disagree on).
Rather than face that fact and attempt to form a better, more cohesive opinion, you never fail to just run away.
This is why I can't imagine you being an issue if we were on the same server, making you run would be easy - it seems to be your default move.
Raiding caravans as a primary source of income is a false negative for your argument. Attackers being able to easily attack and stand as a constant threat for caravans is a *required* enforcement mechanic to make sure that the caravan system is actually a risk rather than a money printing machine. Then, if they also start a caravan with the stolen goods they are now taking the same risk.
I will say this as a concession. Defenders and attackers should both take death penalties as if they were combatants, this "no penalties" crap for organized pvp seems really bad for the game. Especially in a system about moving resources between towns.
Opening the boxes and getting stuff you can just haul out on foot/mount seems bad for the system, but if the value cut is low enough it might be worth keeping as an option.
These are the two biggest problems with the system in my opinion.
Liniker is one of those people that thinks the only valid opinion is exactly the opinion he has.
I wasn't going to say it, but one of the main reasons is because I don't want to lose more brain cells reading your shit, every time you start spamming posts with your nonsense I immediately tune out
its called self-preservation lol
See, what happens is as soon as you are faced with two positions of yours that can't be true, you tune out.
In this thread, it was the notion of players only raiding caravans in their spare time, and the cost of raiding caravans being low.
You are smart enough to know that these two things can't both be true - if the in game cost is low, many players will make it their primary means of income.
Quite honestly, this is all I have ever needed to do to get you to stop engaging in most threads - simply point out where you have conflicting, mutually exclusive thoughts on a topic (you have these on most topics we disagree on).
Rather than face that fact and attempt to form a better, more cohesive opinion, you never fail to just run away.
This is why I can't imagine you being an issue if we were on the same server, making you run would be easy - it seems to be your default move.
Aren't you oversimplifying things here since yes, the cost of engaging a caravan is low but other factors can make it costly? If you are going to go out and hunt caravans, there is a time cost to it, a risk you won't find one, a risk you won't beat the defenders, and who knows what's being transported. When you compare it to other activities, there are probably going to be more stable, consistent ways to get rewards.
this "no penalties" crap for organized pvp seems really bad for the game.
I see this design as mainly a way to let people enjoy pvp to the fullest. If death penalties are meant to mean anything, then even halved values will still be noticeable. And if you're meant to die dozens of times within a short window of time - no one would be excited for pvp events if it always meant huuuge losses and progression setbacks.
I really hope we learn more about respawn locations and choices (if there are any). Cause right now we know nothing about that part of the overall death penalty system.
If caravan takes 20 minutes to go between nodes and attackers can fully wipe, rez and come back to the caravan 10 times in that period, because rez locations allow for it - the risk for defenders is EVEN HIGHER.
But then same applies to defenders wiping as well. If defenders can return before the caravan is even destroyed - that would be a good thing to know when trying to understand the system.
The showcase implied that respawn might be reaaal fucking far, but then I'm reminded that this showcase was nothing but a scripted roleplay scene - we've got 0 true info on things.
That part where the node you pissed off chain declares war on you for the next week and you get nothing done because as soon as you log back in you'll be getting jumped on.
Who says they would be able to easily find him?
Also - that's kinda the whole point of Ashes - to have rivals for PvP. Especially citizens from rival Nodes.
No one needs to find anyone when they're getting farmed at a respawn after a guild declaration. That is how it'll actually work. They get dec'd on, there is no place for them to run because after they died the first time there is people just sitting at the respawn waiting for them to appear and they keep farming kills till the bandits successfully log out.
No one needs to find anyone when they're getting farmed at a respawn after a guild declaration. That is how it'll actually work. They get dec'd on, there is no place for them to run because after they died the first time there is people just sitting at the respawn waiting for them to appear and they keep farming kills till the bandits successfully log out.
This is precisely why I wanna hear details about respawn choices. Giving a "node center" choice would be probably a bit too abusable, but I'd definitely want at least 2-3 options of respawn points at the nearest POIs.
Of course a massive guild can still camp those, but it'd at least be a bit harder and could potentially make it easier for any help to approach one of said points and drive out the portion of the massive guild that's camping that spot.
No one needs to find anyone when they're getting farmed at a respawn after a guild declaration. That is how it'll actually work. They get dec'd on, there is no place for them to run because after they died the first time there is people just sitting at the respawn waiting for them to appear and they keep farming kills till the bandits successfully log out.
This is precisely why I wanna hear details about respawn choices. Giving a "node center" choice would be probably a bit too abusable, but I'd definitely want at least 2-3 options of respawn points at the nearest POIs.
Of course a massive guild can still camp those, but it'd at least be a bit harder and could potentially make it easier for any help to approach one of said points and drive out the portion of the massive guild that's camping that spot.
Well as of right now people are getting camped at a respawn.
Raiding caravans as a primary source of income is a false negative for your argument. Attackers being able to easily attack and stand as a constant threat for caravans is a *required* enforcement mechanic to make sure that the caravan system is actually a risk rather than a money printing machine. Then, if they also start a caravan with the stolen goods they are now taking the same risk.
I 100% agree. There needs to be people willing to attack caravans, absolutely.
It's a balancing issue, and that balance hasnt quite been achieved as yet. This is all my point is.
Keep in mind, my argument isnt that people shouldnt be willing to attack caravans. I only pointed out that people will be raiding caravans as a primary income source because others said that no one would.
If course people will. Of course people will take a profitable PvP route for income if it exists.
Thing is, I'm not arguing against that.
My suggestion for how to fix the balance isnt even to add cost to the attacker side (though making the bandit progression path a social organization does seem like a good idea).
Rather, my suggestion to achieve balance is to make it so that losing a caravan as a defender isnt a complete loss. Make it so there is some mechanism by which you lose about 60-70%, rather than 100%.
This brings the balance in line, keeps people willing to attack caravans which in turn keeps the risk with running caravans alive, but also takes an amount of that risk off of those running caravans, making more people more willing to risk running them.
All up, it is nothing but a benefit to the system as a whole, imo
this "no penalties" crap for organized pvp seems really bad for the game.
I really hope we learn more about respawn locations and choices (if there are any). Cause right now we know nothing about that part of the overall death penalty system.
If caravan takes 20 minutes to go between nodes and attackers can fully wipe, rez and come back to the caravan 10 times in that period, because rez locations allow for it - the risk for defenders is EVEN HIGHER.
But then same applies to defenders wiping as well. If defenders can return before the caravan is even destroyed - that would be a good thing to know when trying to understand the system.
The showcase implied that respawn might be reaaal fucking far, but then I'm reminded that this showcase was nothing but a scripted roleplay scene - we've got 0 true info on things.
But can't there be multiple different attacking parties??? not even associated with ea other
Which just makes thing even riskier for the caravan.
*and again, I'm all for the caravan be risky, but the raiders have damn near none.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
Not joking around here -> what if THAT is actually really their Main Account Goal ?
You could combine the Art of Griefing, Ganking, Trolling - whatever you call it, with an "actual" Role as a feared Band of Brigants, Highwaymen, You know People who are Cuttthroats who wait for honest-working People to come by and then murder them all in cold Blood and take all their Stuff. 😅
Unironically.
Sir Steven showed us with the last monthly Presentation that this can even be part of the Economy as you can sell stolen Goods on the Blackmarket.
So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
I'm also not sure why you think being on an alt on another continent would see us unprepared for a node war or some such. The profit I am making from robbing your caravans is what is ensuring that I am ready for such things. If anything, I am more prepared for it than someone that is 5 minutes away from the middle of the node gathering resources - all I need to do to get there is log out of my alt and then in on my main and I'm ready to do what ever needs to be done.
Hours spent on alt on another part of the map with no fast travel and not dealing with people already fighting in your area = time wasted not being on your main engaging in those things with your already group of people that are fighting you, attacking you.
Keep in mind here, your comment was that being on another continent would keep me away from things happening on my own continent.
If my bandit alt is on my own continent and something happens that needs my attention, I log off and log on to my main to deal with it.
If my bandit is on a different continent and something happens that needs my attention, I log off and log on to my main to deal with it.
My point is, the notion of being on a different continent for what you are talking about literally doesn't matter. In both cases, I wouldn't be dealing with the situation on the bandit alt, and so logging out and in on my main would be required.
If you have an alt account that is taking 10% of random resources in some other part of the map and I have one taking 10% of resources from my direct competitors/rivals, i am growing the same amount but hampering the people I need to. What you're claiming is not optimal. That's ignoring any fast travel issues that might happen with having two accounts across the world from each other, which opens up another mess of issues.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
No one needs to find anyone when they're getting farmed at a respawn after a guild declaration. That is how it'll actually work. They get dec'd on, there is no place for them to run because after they died the first time there is people just sitting at the respawn waiting for them to appear and they keep farming kills till the bandits successfully log out.
I don't think the Ashes design allows farming at a respawn.
My understanding is that respawn locations are intended to not be static.
So, you benefit from taking caravans from other guilds, but you don't think they would benefit doing the same?
What if all of the guilds you're attacking and taking 10% from decide that they're going to each take 10% from you. What happens when the average node size of 100 people is sieged by 2-3 nodes tired of getting attacked by the same node, making it a 250 v 100 and putting themselves in a good situation to level all progress made so far and then cleaning up all of those resources collected.
Not getting vassaled without a fight doesn't seem like a waste of time to me.
It is unlikely that anyone putting any effort in to being a bandit would be a citizen of a node.
So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
I'm also not sure why you think being on an alt on another continent would see us unprepared for a node war or some such. The profit I am making from robbing your caravans is what is ensuring that I am ready for such things. If anything, I am more prepared for it than someone that is 5 minutes away from the middle of the node gathering resources - all I need to do to get there is log out of my alt and then in on my main and I'm ready to do what ever needs to be done.
Hours spent on alt on another part of the map with no fast travel and not dealing with people already fighting in your area = time wasted not being on your main engaging in those things with your already group of people that are fighting you, attacking you.
Keep in mind here, your comment was that being on another continent would keep me away from things happening on my own continent.
If my bandit alt is on my own continent and something happens that needs my attention, I log off and log on to my main to deal with it.
If my bandit is on a different continent and something happens that needs my attention, I log off and log on to my main to deal with it.
My point is, the notion of being on a different continent for what you are talking about literally doesn't matter. In both cases, I wouldn't be dealing with the situation on the bandit alt, and so logging out and in on my main would be required.
If you have an alt account that is taking 10% of random resources in some other part of the map and I have one taking 10% of resources from my direct competitors/rivals, i am growing the same amount but hampering the people I need to. What you're claiming is not optimal. That's ignoring any fast travel issues that might happen with having two accounts across the world from each other, which opens up another mess of issues.
Well now, this depends, doesnt it
The reason I said I *could well be* on a different continent was if I was in a situation where I didnt want to raid caravans near my main node.
If I do want to raid those caravans, that is quite obviously what I'd be doing.
The point I was making with it being a different continent was that I have no need at all to raid caravans of nodes I dont want to raid, and there is no reason at all that I would have to slow down my raiding adventures because of that fact.
Do we know what system Ashes will use for moving resources/gold between characters? Will you be able to send ingame mails to yourself?
I think your home will have shared storage. I am not sure if the node storage is shared. Possibly? There is no mailing gathered or processed goods to alts or yourself. We may or may not see the option to mail finished goods.
Edit: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Storage has all the info. It looks like only player housing will have full sharing of stuff between alts, but node storage can have sharing of finished goods.
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So, if I take 10% from you, and you try to take the same from me... that would be hard to do if I am not running caravans.
If you and your node, and even a few other nearby nodes decide they want to siege my node, that would be really hard if I have no citizenship.
I'm not sure why people dont understand this. Some games set things up for you to have a PK alt where no one knows it's you. Ashes version of that is a bandit guild that's all alts, specific to the purpose of banditry/piracy.
Citizenship is not a requirement, neither is operating on the game continent as your main guild.
Nah, I'll question others opinions, that doesnt mean I dont consider many of them (not all) to be valid opinions.
Ah yes, because people just run bandit guilds on the other side of the map and not in conjunction with their own main account goals.
You do that and by your own definition you're wasting your time because "that time attacking caravans leaves you unprepared for the next node war"
I mean, yeah, people do.
It isn't as if wealth is all that hard to transfer - much easier than materials, that's for sure. Since we know that you don't drop gold when you're killed, under any circumstance, and we also know it has no weight, transporting it is easy.
This means all you need to do is convert what ever you plunder in to gold, and then transfer it to your main, potentially just using the mail system (there is no indication that coin can't be mailed as yet). At most, it would be a run across the game world to perform an in person trade - a run that can be done on a neutral alt at level 1 for all it matters. If I had to resort to this, I would run about a third of the way across the map, but in a way where I am not heading directly to my main, and then I would log out. Then I'd log in a few days later and run the next leg, and log out. Then do the last leg a few days later again - this whole process ensures it is literally impossible to be followed, so no one could make the connection at all between that alt and my main - even if they had made the connection between that alt and my bandit alt.
I'm also not sure why you think being on an alt on another continent would see us unprepared for a node war or some such. The profit I am making from robbing your caravans is what is ensuring that I am ready for such things. If anything, I am more prepared for it than someone that is 5 minutes away from the middle of the node gathering resources - all I need to do to get there is log out of my alt and then in on my main and I'm ready to do what ever needs to be done.
The reason it works this way around but not the other is because I can pick and chose when I go out hunting caravans. I can start and stop on a whim.
On the other hand, if you decide you are going to hunt me down, that will take up all of your time for at least a while. If you are running a single caravan, you need to provide it with enough protection to stop me and my guild taking it over, regardless of whether we are even online or not.
The resources needed to protect against bandit type attacks are exponentially greater than the resources those same bandits need to spend. This is just a basic fact that can't be avoided, and has been a part of real war for thousands of years (going at least as far back as Sun Tzu). It isn't something that a game could change if they wanted to unless they gave only the defender unlimited fast travel.
Ah, but does it spark joy?
The demographic of gaming has long since left that space where even MMO players will just 'log in to be social and try to get ahead of everyone else'. We have standards now. Well... some of us.
If this game's gameplay is fun enough, then the fun is the goal.
I'd argue that the Caravan Defenders also have a large risk, since they might spend 20-50 minutes trundling across the landscape in a huge defense group and not get attacked. Now, I'm not one to judge other people's fun, but this sounds like a massive opportunity cost fail.
MMO or not, unless a person's primary fun is just being the winner/ahead of others (and for all y'all like that, more power to you, no sarc), they're going to do all sorts of strange things that the developers of any individual system can't (and shouldn't have to) expect.
This is part of my personal issue with most higher-budget PvP MMOs. They're not good enough to be fun while losing. They're not good enough to be fun when you're average at them.
Meanwhile I can play an unnecessary 30 extra minutes of a known-to-be-long-lost Predecessor match, just because the fights that do happen are not unbalanced enough to quit.
I'd put money on a substantial population of a game like Ashes, in this era, just being bandits for similar reasons, if the game's combat was good enough, because banditry is the 'fun, unpredictable, Combatant Death Penalties Only' type of Tactical(?) PvP.
And when they don't feel like being bandits anymore, they will log to their main and continue their playtime.
I wasn't going to say it, but one of the main reasons is because I don't want to lose more brain cells reading your shit, every time you start spamming posts with your nonsense I immediately tune out
its called self-preservation lol
Hours spent on alt on another part of the map with no fast travel and not dealing with people already fighting in your area = time wasted not being on your main engaging in those things with your already group of people that are fighting you, attacking you.
I'm not arguing that bandits won't exist and people won't use them to have fun and loot caravans, but the idea that it's actually optimal to have a bandit guild on the opposite side of the world where your main guild is investing time, energy and resources fighting people over theirs...it just doesn't make much sense. If you're trying to be optimal and maximize your resource output efficiently, especially relative to your peers, your bandit guild would be within range of your main account, impacting people that are hampering your progress. Then you get the farming return you want while also directly impacting them.
This is why these types of guilds are often easy to see who they're affiliated with.
If you just make an alt account for fun then sure, but that's not what we're talking about here.
There should be some built in game mechanical risk that has nothing to do with a perfect world 'what if' of player response.
Keep in mind here, your comment was that being on another continent would keep me away from things happening on my own continent.
If my bandit alt is on my own continent and something happens that needs my attention, I log off and log on to my main to deal with it.
If my bandit is on a different continent and something happens that needs my attention, I log off and log on to my main to deal with it.
My point is, the notion of being on a different continent for what you are talking about literally doesn't matter. In both cases, I wouldn't be dealing with the situation on the bandit alt, and so logging out and in on my main would be required.
In this thread, it was the notion of players only raiding caravans in their spare time, and the cost of raiding caravans being low.
You are smart enough to know that these two things can't both be true - if the in game cost is low, many players will make it their primary means of income.
Quite honestly, this is all I have ever needed to do to get you to stop engaging in most threads - simply point out where you have conflicting, mutually exclusive thoughts on a topic (you have these on most topics we disagree on).
Rather than face that fact and attempt to form a better, more cohesive opinion, you never fail to just run away.
This is why I can't imagine you being an issue if we were on the same server, making you run would be easy - it seems to be your default move.
edit: nvm, I'll follow my own advice, ignore that and save myself brain cells
Raiding caravans as a primary source of income is a false negative for your argument. Attackers being able to easily attack and stand as a constant threat for caravans is a *required* enforcement mechanic to make sure that the caravan system is actually a risk rather than a money printing machine. Then, if they also start a caravan with the stolen goods they are now taking the same risk.
I will say this as a concession. Defenders and attackers should both take death penalties as if they were combatants, this "no penalties" crap for organized pvp seems really bad for the game. Especially in a system about moving resources between towns.
Opening the boxes and getting stuff you can just haul out on foot/mount seems bad for the system, but if the value cut is low enough it might be worth keeping as an option.
These are the two biggest problems with the system in my opinion.
Aren't you oversimplifying things here since yes, the cost of engaging a caravan is low but other factors can make it costly? If you are going to go out and hunt caravans, there is a time cost to it, a risk you won't find one, a risk you won't beat the defenders, and who knows what's being transported. When you compare it to other activities, there are probably going to be more stable, consistent ways to get rewards.
I really hope we learn more about respawn locations and choices (if there are any). Cause right now we know nothing about that part of the overall death penalty system.
If caravan takes 20 minutes to go between nodes and attackers can fully wipe, rez and come back to the caravan 10 times in that period, because rez locations allow for it - the risk for defenders is EVEN HIGHER.
But then same applies to defenders wiping as well. If defenders can return before the caravan is even destroyed - that would be a good thing to know when trying to understand the system.
The showcase implied that respawn might be reaaal fucking far, but then I'm reminded that this showcase was nothing but a scripted roleplay scene - we've got 0 true info on things.
No one needs to find anyone when they're getting farmed at a respawn after a guild declaration. That is how it'll actually work. They get dec'd on, there is no place for them to run because after they died the first time there is people just sitting at the respawn waiting for them to appear and they keep farming kills till the bandits successfully log out.
Of course a massive guild can still camp those, but it'd at least be a bit harder and could potentially make it easier for any help to approach one of said points and drive out the portion of the massive guild that's camping that spot.
Well as of right now people are getting camped at a respawn.
It's a balancing issue, and that balance hasnt quite been achieved as yet. This is all my point is.
Keep in mind, my argument isnt that people shouldnt be willing to attack caravans. I only pointed out that people will be raiding caravans as a primary income source because others said that no one would.
If course people will. Of course people will take a profitable PvP route for income if it exists.
Thing is, I'm not arguing against that.
My suggestion for how to fix the balance isnt even to add cost to the attacker side (though making the bandit progression path a social organization does seem like a good idea).
Rather, my suggestion to achieve balance is to make it so that losing a caravan as a defender isnt a complete loss. Make it so there is some mechanism by which you lose about 60-70%, rather than 100%.
This brings the balance in line, keeps people willing to attack caravans which in turn keeps the risk with running caravans alive, but also takes an amount of that risk off of those running caravans, making more people more willing to risk running them.
All up, it is nothing but a benefit to the system as a whole, imo
But can't there be multiple different attacking parties??? not even associated with ea other
Which just makes thing even riskier for the caravan.
*and again, I'm all for the caravan be risky, but the raiders have damn near none.
Not joking around here -> what if THAT is actually really their Main Account Goal ?
You could combine the Art of Griefing, Ganking, Trolling - whatever you call it, with an "actual" Role as a feared Band of Brigants, Highwaymen, You know People who are Cuttthroats who wait for honest-working People to come by and then murder them all in cold Blood and take all their Stuff. 😅
Unironically.
Sir Steven showed us with the last monthly Presentation that this can even be part of the Economy as you can sell stolen Goods on the Blackmarket.
If you have an alt account that is taking 10% of random resources in some other part of the map and I have one taking 10% of resources from my direct competitors/rivals, i am growing the same amount but hampering the people I need to. What you're claiming is not optimal. That's ignoring any fast travel issues that might happen with having two accounts across the world from each other, which opens up another mess of issues.
My understanding is that respawn locations are intended to not be static.
The reason I said I *could well be* on a different continent was if I was in a situation where I didnt want to raid caravans near my main node.
If I do want to raid those caravans, that is quite obviously what I'd be doing.
The point I was making with it being a different continent was that I have no need at all to raid caravans of nodes I dont want to raid, and there is no reason at all that I would have to slow down my raiding adventures because of that fact.
I think your home will have shared storage. I am not sure if the node storage is shared. Possibly? There is no mailing gathered or processed goods to alts or yourself. We may or may not see the option to mail finished goods.
Edit: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Storage has all the info. It looks like only player housing will have full sharing of stuff between alts, but node storage can have sharing of finished goods.