Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
Mag7spy wrote: » Endowed wrote: » "" assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting."" I'm just going to repeat again, Conclusion there is no resource management while sitting down. Stop trying to say actions you do in combat are counting for out of combat.
Endowed wrote: » "" assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting.""
Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move. We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act. Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while. This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go. On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
Depraved wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Endowed wrote: » "" assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting."" I'm just going to repeat again, Conclusion there is no resource management while sitting down. Stop trying to say actions you do in combat are counting for out of combat. what if u can sit in combat to regen mana a bit faster? like if you are a support for example ;3
Kutsuumugen wrote: » Hello, I often try to watch the Devstreams for AoC but don't get to involed or look too deeply as I don't want to spoil to much of the game for myself and just want to look forward to playing it. However mostly seen in the recent Devstream on Feb 29th I noticed something that rather puts me off and would like some more information and to just give my feedback on, as I can't seem to find any recent information or questions/answers regarding it.Question: After a big fight or any fight/battle to where your Health/Mana have dropped below say 30% you are now at a point where you need to "sit" and just wait for your Health/Mana to be restored, is this going to be how it is going forward and on release? I feel this is an old school mechanic and just doesn't fit AoC or many MMORPGs to this day and it's an outdated mechanic. This is something I saw when I first played Aion Online after it's release and after a single fight/battle of 1-2 mobs I would sit down for 5-10 minutes (everytime) to restore my Health/Mana as Potions were not easy to obtain. The issue is that I don't see Consumables being used in a fitting way or seem to be a 1 time thing and that's it. I just don't see the point of this "sitting down" to restore oneself an ideal or fun mechanic.Example: I just finished a battle/fight and now below 30% Health/Mana now comes along another player and kills me. Doesn't sound very fun for either side nor does the idea to sit and wait for 5 minutes staring at my screen doing nothing.
Myosotys wrote: » Kutsuumugen wrote: » Hello, I often try to watch the Devstreams for AoC but don't get to involed or look too deeply as I don't want to spoil to much of the game for myself and just want to look forward to playing it. However mostly seen in the recent Devstream on Feb 29th I noticed something that rather puts me off and would like some more information and to just give my feedback on, as I can't seem to find any recent information or questions/answers regarding it.Question: After a big fight or any fight/battle to where your Health/Mana have dropped below say 30% you are now at a point where you need to "sit" and just wait for your Health/Mana to be restored, is this going to be how it is going forward and on release? I feel this is an old school mechanic and just doesn't fit AoC or many MMORPGs to this day and it's an outdated mechanic. This is something I saw when I first played Aion Online after it's release and after a single fight/battle of 1-2 mobs I would sit down for 5-10 minutes (everytime) to restore my Health/Mana as Potions were not easy to obtain. The issue is that I don't see Consumables being used in a fitting way or seem to be a 1 time thing and that's it. I just don't see the point of this "sitting down" to restore oneself an ideal or fun mechanic.Example: I just finished a battle/fight and now below 30% Health/Mana now comes along another player and kills me. Doesn't sound very fun for either side nor does the idea to sit and wait for 5 minutes staring at my screen doing nothing. I like sitting to restora mana/HP. It gives sociability to the game.
Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move. We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act. Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while. This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go. On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful. My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss. It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind.
Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move. We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act. Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while. This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go. On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful. My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss. It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind. So if I'm understanding your perspective correctly, you think that down time should exist. You just worry that it will be taken too far. If that is the case, then we are on the same page.What I am considering good would be something like this: 1 - I arrive in an area with a lot of spread out mobs that are around my lvl 2 - I engage a couple of them, since I think i can handle them alone. 3 - After defeating both of them, I'm about half health and half mana 4 - I still have all my more powerful cooldowns left so I take on another 2. 5 - about halfway through, another 2 mobs surprise me and wander in 6 - I'm surviving but I need to start using some of my long cooldowns 7 - Eventually I manage to take them out, but by now all my major cooldowns are gone, I've used a number of consumables and my mana and health are nearly gone. 8 - It's going to take time to recover my health and mana and it's a bit dangerous to re-engage until some of my abilities come back online so I go off to the side, and for 10 to 15 seconds I recover and get ready to go back in. As long as I'm taking on a reasonable number of mobs at a reasonable pace, I'm good, the game will allow me to continue. But the moment I take on too much, or don't pay attention, I am forced to eventually stop. In this way my reward for managing agro and paying attention (not to mention learning the best way to defeat specific enemies) is continued gameplay. My punishment for taking on too much or not knowing my enemies is to be forced to stop playing and recover. This is an example of an area where it's safe to solo. Obviously in a group centered area the mobs may have this effect on the whole group. Its not a perfect example, but this is the sort of loop I'd like to see.
Mag7spy wrote: » Let the content be what makes people take longer pauses to set up their fights, planning and encounters, as they talk about it and think. Not artificial increasing the pause from needing to rest for like 30 seconds. Though if your part wipes and you need rezzes that could be a much longer pause i don't really care about time frame be it 5 min -15 min. That is the side I'm on it being longer pretty much.
Mag7spy wrote: » Second if you are making a argument that people are burning through mobs so they need to artificially slow people down because there is not enough content in the world to support players. That is not a good artificial buffer. Making the mobs more difficult and stronger is a better way to deal with that if that are that easy to deal with on top of the pvx threat.
Mag7spy wrote: » Third if you are making any kind of point on ganking people because they need to sit down or they have low mana sot hey can't win I don't agree with that. If you are getting ganked you shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage.
Mag7spy wrote: » Also if you are killing more mobs and rates need to be lowered to balance that out that is a fine solution to me as well anyway.
Mag7spy wrote: » I feel you are looking at this as L2 with easy mob farming, I'm unsure of the reality of how the game is going to fully turn out but if the mobs are that easy people just blitz through everything, forcing people to slow down by sitting for extended amounts of time isn't really a fix.
Mag7spy wrote: » So we definitely again don't agree, if there isn't enough content for the player base they will have to do other solutions.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Second if you are making a argument that people are burning through mobs so they need to artificially slow people down because there is not enough content in the world to support players. That is not a good artificial buffer. Making the mobs more difficult and stronger is a better way to deal with that if that are that easy to deal with on top of the pvx threat. Now you're the one talking about combat, when the discussion is about out-of-combat regen It doesn't matter how long a single mob takes to get killed, because we're talking about the time between mobs. This suggestion also doesn't take into the account how many mobs are in the vicinity and how big the radius of their aggro is. If a whole party can only pull 1-2 mobs, because they're super difficult, that means that any more mobs would either wipe the party or make it super super difficult to survive. This in turn means that even large locations would only have a few mobs in them, so that people can at least farm said mobs w/o wiping on every other one. Large locations with very few mobs means that soft friction becomes even more aggressive, because there's barely any content left for newcomers to the location. This in turn increases the danger of any mob, because you gotta keep more resources present in case any players decide to steal it or weaken you against it. And in cases where everyone agrees not to attack each other, we come back to the discussion of "farming a spot vs running around". If your party comes to a dungeon w/ 0 desire to pvp others, but all mobs are literally taken by other parties - you'll have to go to another dungeon. Now not only your goals for the day completely shifted, but you've also wasted limit playtime (especially if you checked the entire dungeon-worth of rooms). The balance of this situation is razor-thin and imo making people sit for half a minute in-between pulls creates a more interesting friction situation. The mobs could respawn right before the party regens to full, so any passersby could try going for them, while the og group would argue that this spot was theirs already. The content is present, but it has now become a full pvx situation rather than one or the other. And this is pretty much how quite a lot of situations in L2 went down in my experience. Which is exactly why I'm giving feedback that matches those situations, because I believe that they're the best setup for a pvx game, because this setup is exactly why I liked L2's pvx. Mag7spy wrote: » Third if you are making any kind of point on ganking people because they need to sit down or they have low mana sot hey can't win I don't agree with that. If you are getting ganked you shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage. This is the risk/reward of the situation. Do you pull a weaker mob/group just so that you remain at higher resource values in case the location is super active and there's a ton of people, or do you go all out and clear more pve because you believe that no one else will come while you're regening. To me, these kinds of considerations are the interesting part of pvx. Mag7spy wrote: » Also if you are killing more mobs and rates need to be lowered to balance that out that is a fine solution to me as well anyway. And I believe you're in the same minority as me Most people hate grinding shit for a reward. And lower rates lead to grindy designs. Mag7spy wrote: » I feel you are looking at this as L2 with easy mob farming, I'm unsure of the reality of how the game is going to fully turn out but if the mobs are that easy people just blitz through everything, forcing people to slow down by sitting for extended amounts of time isn't really a fix. Yes, of course, which is exactly why I've been saying that I want pve that's much harder than L2's, because that is OBVIOUSLY the exact same thing as L2 had. You are literally responding to a comment that says "I want super hard pve", yet you still bring this up. Mag7spy wrote: » So we definitely again don't agree, if there isn't enough content for the player base they will have to do other solutions. I'd be interested in hearing what exactly would those solutions look like in your opinion, cause there's 2 Noaani options of "just have more game" and "have instances", there's mine of "balance out regening better', there's the obvious "this game is not for you, so go fight for those mobs" - so what does your solution look like? Or do you not know and simply hope that Intrepid will come up with some absolutely new way to have both the exciting and thrilling pvx and enough content for everyone at all times (which kinda remove the thrill and excite from that pvx imo).
Mag7spy wrote: » IF you are in a pvp situation you are going to be focused on killing players and not farming mobs. If pvp is wait for someone to go kill mobs then watch them sit to gank that isn't going to paint a great picture. Letting things lean more towards the sider of a ganker isn't really competitive pvp, both sides should have a chance to fight back even more so with the corruption system. So les chance for people to default with the mind set let them get corrupted and don't fight back. IE if your team has low mana you decide to take the loss with some members and just come back after to kill the corrupted players since you can't win.
Mag7spy wrote: » Unless they are being unreasonable in very heavy pulls (which shouldn't be the basis for the conversation, it should be what the norm is for people. Not on the assumption they are doing light or heavy pulls but the average that is expected).
Mag7spy wrote: » If the issue is more there is not enough land space for all the players to give them content and people have nothing to do or are forced to pvp 24/7. Than instances or shards is the other solution.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » IF you are in a pvp situation you are going to be focused on killing players and not farming mobs. If pvp is wait for someone to go kill mobs then watch them sit to gank that isn't going to paint a great picture. Letting things lean more towards the sider of a ganker isn't really competitive pvp, both sides should have a chance to fight back even more so with the corruption system. So les chance for people to default with the mind set let them get corrupted and don't fight back. IE if your team has low mana you decide to take the loss with some members and just come back after to kill the corrupted players since you can't win. It's precisely because I the corruption system in mind that I support sitting down. Only a fraction of a fraction of players would be fine going Red in a dungeon. So majority of people wouldn't try to kill someone who's sitting on their ass and regening. But quite a lot of people would be completely fine flagging up on someone who's fighting hardcore mobs, because reducing players' hp would make it easier for mobs to kill them. Now tell me, what situation would make it easier to do what I described above: players can farm mobs non-stop forever players have to take small breaks between pulls As I see it, it's the first situation that's more beneficial to gankers and bullies. In the second situation the newcomers would either go to the next room (because this one is "taken") or they'd start fighting mobs themselves. And you know who'd benefit from them doing that? The OG party, because now they are the ones who'll have more resources (cause they'd regen up, while the newcomers are fighting) and they'd have the advantage of the mob threat. And of course there's the option that newcomers just wait till the OGs start fighting mobs and only then start flagging up, but then it's on the OGs to realize this possibility and address it accordingly. Like I said, this design creates more interesting and thrilling pvx situations. Mag7spy wrote: » Unless they are being unreasonable in very heavy pulls (which shouldn't be the basis for the conversation, it should be what the norm is for people. Not on the assumption they are doing light or heavy pulls but the average that is expected). So we once again come to a point where I want harder pve than you. The "average" should already be a super hard encounter imo, so only the strongest (or dumbest) groups would be overpulling. So right now it seems you not only want a more pver-friendly game, but also an easier game, than what I'd prefer. Mag7spy wrote: » If the issue is more there is not enough land space for all the players to give them content and people have nothing to do or are forced to pvp 24/7. Than instances or shards is the other solution. So you'd be fine with the game's design changing WAAAAAAY fucking more simply because you don't want to sit for a few seconds between pulls? I mean, if that's your opinion that's completely fine. But I'd rather have what Steven promised us, and imo a good balance of out-of-combat regen and mob respawn would do precisely that.
So we once again come to a point where I want harder pve than you. The "average" should already be a super hard encounter imo, so only the strongest (or dumbest) groups would be overpulling. So right now it seems you not only want a more pver-friendly game, but also an easier game, than what I'd prefer.
So you'd be fine with the game's design changing WAAAAAAY fucking more simply because you don't want to sit for a few seconds between pulls? I mean, if that's your opinion that's completely fine. But I'd rather have what Steven promised us, and imo a good balance of out-of-combat regen and mob respawn would do precisely that.
Mag7spy wrote: » Unsure what you are trying to get at here if people are fighting mobs people are more likely to attack them? That doesn't erase the point of if you aren't moving you are a easy target and it tells a group you are low on resources so it is a easy pk still? Both the same result when the player dies. This question doesn't really matter because if you plan to pk someone you will pick whatever situation is the best for you based on how the game works. It makes no difference if you rest more often or not so that line of thought doesn't really work. If ganking you when you are fighting mobs is the best way to get loot, I just wait till your next pull??? So resting or not doesn't change anything for the ganker.
Mag7spy wrote: » Also can you quote me where i said players can farm mobs non-stop, you are exaggerating my points. I said you don't need to be afk 30 seconds every few pulls, as that time is ridiculous and having your resting time get a 50% buff would be in the right spot.
Mag7spy wrote: » As well as the mob difficulty should be what increases the duration of fight (im not just talking about sponge heavy mobs).
Mag7spy wrote: » Again your idea of PvX and my idea seem quite far apart. You are trying to say its thrilling because as you were resting a group went head of you and now you can gank them? This doesn't really say much to me in terms of content or anything interesting. Its just normal pvp where you can win a fight because they are weakened with limited resources Its really nothing special to write home about.... Now if both groups know they were farming a dungeon with expectation of fighting each other that is a much better vibe. There would be ways to take that to a much higher level but that would get into another conversation.
Mag7spy wrote: » Also unsure how you get to say i want a more pve friendly game when the whole point is so both groups have a more competitive edge against each other in pvp. Again this feels like it comes down to what you feel is thrilling "PvX" content skewing your opinion. Personally as a pvper i don't find it thrilling i see it as a perfect way to take advantage and win a fight easily without a issue. I don't want teams pools to be so small that they feel a issue from a gank, I want people to be able to fight and not feel like they are in crutches.
Mag7spy wrote: » As much it can benefit me to gank, when you get ganked its easily rough against you and its better to have more of a fair shot before you die, or to be able to do something atleast and not be half drained from one pull and needing to be vulnerable sitting down constantly on top of it. Both situations someone will happily gank players.
Mag7spy wrote: » As i said in my examples on increasing rates, if the issue is really 15 seconds of extra rest time, you have mobs spawn 15-30 seconds faster.....no extended rest time needed, why is that so hard to understand?
