If, however, players' health bars were only visible to their own party or raid members, this issue could be mitigated. This change would also open strategic possibilities like deliberately maintaining low HP to bait enemies.
You could also sit down pretending you are low on health and mana. Or remain ready to fight as if you are full.
Still the game having the corruption mechanic, players will not attack you unless the corruption is tuned down or you are corrupted. But as a corrupted player you will have to run if anyone finds you, no matter how much health you have.
Or maybe guild wars and node wars will be more common that we imagine.
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
That would separate PvEers from PvPers.
How would that work in AoC?
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
That would separate PvEers from PvPers.
How would that work in AoC?
What do you mean by that? Attacking greens gets you corruption. That's already in the game. What separation are you talking about?
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
Or we can go with the other end, remove corruption altogether and force people to fight or be pked and lose all their items.
Rather than than you trying tot throw a suggestion on removing owpvp pretty much. Like you are literarily suggesting when someone attacks you they have a chance to lose their equipped gear and 4* mats lol?
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
Or we can go with the other end, remove corruption altogether and force people to fight or be pked and lose all their items.
Rather than than you trying tot throw a suggestion on removing owpvp pretty much. Like you are literarily suggesting when someone attacks you they have a chance to lose their equipped gear and 4* mats lol?
Thats a false equivalent. You are exaggerating what was said to push the needle the way you want.
I don't see the issue. If we have corruption, assign corruption for attacking as well as killing. If thats a problem explain how.
So does the L2 system work or does it not work? The system works in Eve, but they heighten and lessen the penalty in certain areas to create the type of combat they want in specific parts of space.
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
The corruption/flagging system in L2 was GOOD. Ashes of Creation took that system and refined it in order to mitigate the risks of griefing even more. However, HP bars were not visible in L2 but they are in AoC and this is an issue.
There is absolutely no logical necessity to change the entire idea of corruption/flagging system or make it more complicated by implementing complex decisions. There is no need to solve the problem in 3 steps, when it could be solved in one.
Forget about what you like or don't like. Forget about what you used to or not used to. We are not discussing whether a certain cosmetic item looks pretty or not, so our subjective opinions should not matter, only rational analysis, based on common sense and experience in games with similar systems. Think what is better for the game, not for yourself.
I used to have such encounters in L2, where all possible dirty tricks are acceptable and you compete with really tough players. It is NOT a problem for me to do that for 12 hours straight and then do it again the next day, but it is a problem for 95% of OTHER players, especially if they are casual. I am among those who would benefit from the current state of affairs, but here I am, trying to explain why it shouldn't be like that, so that the competition will be fair and healthy; and there is both risk and reward for both sides.
I made a video about this topic where I provide a detailed explanation about it, hope it will help you to get a better understanding of what I'm trying to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tScTLVQh_7E
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
Or we can go with the other end, remove corruption altogether and force people to fight or be pked and lose all their items.
Rather than than you trying tot throw a suggestion on removing owpvp pretty much. Like you are literarily suggesting when someone attacks you they have a chance to lose their equipped gear and 4* mats lol?
Thats a false equivalent. You are exaggerating what was said to push the needle the way you want.
I don't see the issue. If we have corruption, assign corruption for attacking as well as killing. If thats a problem explain how.
That tells me you have not played a game involving pvp lol...First off you must not thinking the corruption system is harsh to even think of that.
Or you just don't know about the corruption system and the draw backs. I shouldnt have to explained every single one of these draw backs
Effectively you are trying to suggest a player upon attack should be met with a dozen draw backs no longer able to ever cc the person they are attacking while able to be cc'd themselves. I literarily just said this a chance to drop the gear you have EQUIPED on top of 4* mats in your inventory.
Bh around the area will get pinged you have attacked someone, on top of all other players in the area able to turn on you and attack you.
You need to understand the severity of corruption as it is a mmorpg that has the highest consequences in terms of pvp and corruption.
I think the bar should be there, but they could make it less sections. I would love to se a 33% split.
And how could it possibly solve the issue? (Spoiler: first of all, it won't make a difference and secondly, if you watched the stream where Steven talked about, he said that there will be MORE of those segments, 6 to 8, not less)
So does the L2 system work or does it not work? The system works in Eve, but they heighten and lessen the penalty in certain areas to create the type of combat they want in specific parts of space.
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
The corruption/flagging system in L2 was GOOD. Ashes of Creation took that system and refined it in order to mitigate the risks of griefing even more. However, HP bars were not visible in L2 but they are in AoC and this is an issue.
There is absolutely no logical necessity to change the entire idea of corruption/flagging system or make it more complicated by implementing complex decisions. There is no need to solve the problem in 3 steps, when it could be solved in one.
Forget about what you like or don't like. Forget about what you used to or not used to. We are not discussing whether a certain cosmetic item looks pretty or not, so our subjective opinions should not matter, only rational analysis, based on common sense and experience in games with similar systems. Think what is better for the game, not for yourself.
I used to have such encounters in L2, where all possible dirty tricks are acceptable and you compete with really tough players. It is NOT a problem for me to do that for 12 hours straight and then do it again the next day, but it is a problem for 95% of OTHER players, especially if they are casual. I am among those who would benefit from the current state of affairs, but here I am, trying to explain why it shouldn't be like that, so that the competition will be fair and there was both risk and reward for both sides.
I made a video about this topic where I provide a detailed explanation about it, hope it will help you to get a better understanding of what I'm trying to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tScTLVQh_7E
Im not interested in forgetting about anything. I'd rather suggest that you remember that you are not playing L2 anymore.
Flagging systems exist in many games, and they show hp (or what represents hp) just fine.
The issue is that you are tieing corruption to strictly killing. Scale the corruption based on damage. If you bring somone close to death you incure almost as much corruption as actually killing them
No matter what you do, if the system only counts kills, then its wide open to exploits. People will game it whether you can see the bar or not. No need to fundamentally change the way we experience all pvp encounters in order to not fix the problem.
In 20 years of L2 you guys never fixed this issue. Maybe we need to stretch beyond their framework a bit to find answers.
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
Or we can go with the other end, remove corruption altogether and force people to fight or be pked and lose all their items.
Rather than than you trying tot throw a suggestion on removing owpvp pretty much. Like you are literarily suggesting when someone attacks you they have a chance to lose their equipped gear and 4* mats lol?
Thats a false equivalent. You are exaggerating what was said to push the needle the way you want.
I don't see the issue. If we have corruption, assign corruption for attacking as well as killing. If thats a problem explain how.
That tells me you have not played a game involving pvp lol...First off you must not thinking the corruption system is harsh to even think of that.
Or you just don't know about the corruption system and the draw backs. I shouldnt have to explained every single one of these draw backs
Effectively you are trying to suggest a player upon attack should be met with a dozen draw backs no longer able to ever cc the person they are attacking while able to be cc'd themselves. I literarily just said this a chance to drop the gear you have EQUIPED on top of 4* mats in your inventory.
Bh around the area will get pinged you have attacked someone, on top of all other players in the area able to turn on you and attack you.
You need to understand the severity of corruption as it is a mmorpg that has the highest consequences in terms of pvp and corruption.
Again spare me the arrogant "you clearly can't comprehend" speech.
Like I said in the above post, scale corruption to damage to a player, not as all or nothing based on a kill.
Then put scales in that up the corruption consequences as you gain more. Don't call in the bounty hunter just because you had a tussle with one player.
Centering things around one singular condition, in this case a killing blow, will cause you exploit issues no what you do. HP bars won't change that.
Im not interested in forgetting about anything. I'd rather suggest that you remember that you are not playing L2 anymore.
Flagging systems exist in many games, and they show hp (or what represents hp) just fine.
The issue is that you are tieing corruption to strictly killing. Scale the corruption based on damage. If you bring somone close to death you incure almost as much corruption as actually killing them
No matter what you do, if the system only counts kills, then its wide open to exploits. People will game it whether you can see the bar or not. No need to fundamentally change the way we experience all pvp encounters in order to not fix the problem.
In 20 years of L2 you guys never fixed this issue. Maybe we need to stretch beyond their framework a bit to find answers.
1. We don't play L2, but the system was taken from there.
2. "Scale the corruption based on damage", Meaning no offence, but I have a strong impression that you don't understand what you are talking about.
3. Based on your posts, you disagree because your decision is based on what suits you and what you like/want. It's not the best approach to take in such discussions.
4. "You guys never fixed the issue?". First of all, none of us are L2 devs. Secondly, that game was meant to be hardcore. Your argument makes no point and such rhetorical questions are irrelevant. It is some sort of ad hominem fallacy that is applied to the game, not the issue that we discuss
Then put scales in that up the corruption consequences as you gain more. Don't call in the bounty hunter just because you had a tussle with one player.
So you offer is to entirely change the flagging system. corruption system, bountry system and implement unnecessary scaling, instead of... just making a few clicks and making HP bar visible only to group/raid. Makes a lot of sense (no)
Centering things around one singular condition, in this case a killing blow, will cause you exploit issues no what you do. HP bars won't change that.
Yes, they will change it completely. It makes a counter-strategy valid which is keeping your own HP low or burning your own HP intentionally. As a result, attacker doesn't know which of his hits may eventually kill you and risks going corrupt any moment. Corruption leads to severe consequences and makes sense in exceptionally rare situations
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
Or we can go with the other end, remove corruption altogether and force people to fight or be pked and lose all their items.
Rather than than you trying tot throw a suggestion on removing owpvp pretty much. Like you are literarily suggesting when someone attacks you they have a chance to lose their equipped gear and 4* mats lol?
Thats a false equivalent. You are exaggerating what was said to push the needle the way you want.
I don't see the issue. If we have corruption, assign corruption for attacking as well as killing. If thats a problem explain how.
That tells me you have not played a game involving pvp lol...First off you must not thinking the corruption system is harsh to even think of that.
Or you just don't know about the corruption system and the draw backs. I shouldnt have to explained every single one of these draw backs
Effectively you are trying to suggest a player upon attack should be met with a dozen draw backs no longer able to ever cc the person they are attacking while able to be cc'd themselves. I literarily just said this a chance to drop the gear you have EQUIPED on top of 4* mats in your inventory.
Bh around the area will get pinged you have attacked someone, on top of all other players in the area able to turn on you and attack you.
You need to understand the severity of corruption as it is a mmorpg that has the highest consequences in terms of pvp and corruption.
Again spare me the arrogant "you clearly can't comprehend" speech.
Like I said in the above post, scale corruption to damage to a player, not as all or nothing based on a kill.
Then put scales in that up the corruption consequences as you gain more. Don't call in the bounty hunter just because you had a tussle with one player.
Centering things around one singular condition, in this case a killing blow, will cause you exploit issues no what you do. HP bars won't change that.
That game is doing trinity this does not make any sense from a balance perspective....You literally aren't giving real solutions with thought process behind it based on the game.
And its arrogant because its the truth and why i linked the corruption so you could read over it since there is a lot of detail inside it.
So if you have a healer you just heal your team until the pkers tun corrupted and you get to kill them for free lmao.
Again its a terrible suggestion that leans towards pure pve and kills part of the pvp scene.
Im not interested in forgetting about anything. I'd rather suggest that you remember that you are not playing L2 anymore.
Flagging systems exist in many games, and they show hp (or what represents hp) just fine.
The issue is that you are tieing corruption to strictly killing. Scale the corruption based on damage. If you bring somone close to death you incure almost as much corruption as actually killing them
No matter what you do, if the system only counts kills, then its wide open to exploits. People will game it whether you can see the bar or not. No need to fundamentally change the way we experience all pvp encounters in order to not fix the problem.
In 20 years of L2 you guys never fixed this issue. Maybe we need to stretch beyond their framework a bit to find answers.
1. We don't play L2, but the system was taken from there.
2. "Scale the corruption based on damage", Meaning no offence, but I have a strong impression that you don't understand what you are talking about.
3. Based on your posts, you disagree because your decision is based on what suits you and what you like/want. It's not the best approach to take in such discussions.
4. "You guys never fixed the issue?". First of all, none of us are L2 devs. Secondly, that game was meant to be hardcore. Your argument makes no point and such rhetorical questions are irrelevant. It is some sort of ad hominem fallacy that is applied to the game, not the issue that we discuss
Then put scales in that up the corruption consequences as you gain more. Don't call in the bounty hunter just because you had a tussle with one player.
So you offer is to entirely change the flagging system. corruption system, bountry system and implement unnecessary scaling, instead of... just making a few clicks and making HP bar visible only to group/raid. Makes a lot of sense (no)
Centering things around one singular condition, in this case a killing blow, will cause you exploit issues no what you do. HP bars won't change that.
Yes, they will change it completely. It makes a counter-strategy valid which is keeping your own HP low or burning your own HP intentionally. As a result, attacker doesn't know which of his hits may eventually kill you and risks going corrupt any moment. Corruption leads to severe consequences and makes sense in exceptionally rare situations
Again, don't base it strictly around the killing blow.
You have even said yourself, people will just learn to calculate damage anyway and time their attacks to not kill. Bars or no bars. It doesn't solve your issue.
How and under what circumstances you dish out corruption is the issue.
Again, don't base it strictly around the killing blow.
You have even said yourself, people will just learn to calculate damage anyway and time their attacks to not kill. Bars or no bars. It doesn't solve your issue.
How and under what circumstances you dish out corruption is the issue.
It does solve the problem, as there is a viable counter-strategy and this change provides risks for BOTH sides and I already explained how exactly it works. If it doesn't answer your question, then I don't know what will.
Yes, they will change it completely. It makes a counter-strategy valid which is keeping your own HP low or burning your own HP intentionally. As a result, attacker doesn't know which of his hits may eventually kill you and risks going corrupt any moment. Corruption leads to severe consequences and makes sense in exceptionally rare situations
You just want to have HP bars in game for whatever reason and make an attempt to rationalize it. It's not the best approach to choose. Think about the game, don't touch it's core pillars (as they will not change anyway), stay on point and don't try to think of a complex solution when there is a simple solution.
Again, don't base it strictly around the killing blow.
You have even said yourself, people will just learn to calculate damage anyway and time their attacks to not kill. Bars or no bars. It doesn't solve your issue.
How and under what circumstances you dish out corruption is the issue.
It does solve the problem, as there is a viable counter-strategy and this change provides risks for BOTH sides and I already explained how exactly it works. If it doesn't answer your question, then I don't know what will.
Yes, they will change it completely. It makes a counter-strategy valid which is keeping your own HP low or burning your own HP intentionally. As a result, attacker doesn't know which of his hits may eventually kill you and risks going corrupt any moment. Corruption leads to severe consequences and makes sense in exceptionally rare situations
And I've pointed out that there can be other ways to tackle the problem than completely altering the way we experience pvp encounters. For example, obscuring the exact hp number like they have already done.
If you simply can't be bothered to explore those alternatives than there is not much else to talk about.
Im not interested in forgetting about anything. I'd rather suggest that you remember that you are not playing L2 anymore.
Flagging systems exist in many games, and they show hp (or what represents hp) just fine.
The issue is that you are tieing corruption to strictly killing. Scale the corruption based on damage. If you bring somone close to death you incure almost as much corruption as actually killing them
No matter what you do, if the system only counts kills, then its wide open to exploits. People will game it whether you can see the bar or not. No need to fundamentally change the way we experience all pvp encounters in order to not fix the problem.
In 20 years of L2 you guys never fixed this issue. Maybe we need to stretch beyond their framework a bit to find answers.
1. We don't play L2, but the system was taken from there.
2. "Scale the corruption based on damage", Meaning no offence, but I have a strong impression that you don't understand what you are talking about.
3. Based on your posts, you disagree because your decision is based on what suits you and what you like/want. It's not the best approach to take in such discussions.
4. "You guys never fixed the issue?". First of all, none of us are L2 devs. Secondly, that game was meant to be hardcore. Your argument makes no point and such rhetorical questions are irrelevant. It is some sort of ad hominem fallacy that is applied to the game, not the issue that we discuss
Then put scales in that up the corruption consequences as you gain more. Don't call in the bounty hunter just because you had a tussle with one player.
So you offer is to entirely change the flagging system. corruption system, bountry system and implement unnecessary scaling, instead of... just making a few clicks and making HP bar visible only to group/raid. Makes a lot of sense (no)
Centering things around one singular condition, in this case a killing blow, will cause you exploit issues no what you do. HP bars won't change that.
Yes, they will change it completely. It makes a counter-strategy valid which is keeping your own HP low or burning your own HP intentionally. As a result, attacker doesn't know which of his hits may eventually kill you and risks going corrupt any moment. Corruption leads to severe consequences and makes sense in exceptionally rare situations
Again, don't base it strictly around the killing blow.
You have even said yourself, people will just learn to calculate damage anyway and time their attacks to not kill. Bars or no bars. It doesn't solve your issue.
How and under what circumstances you dish out corruption is the issue.
You are trying to skew the argument
1. it was already mentioned it is something you can improve on and be more effective at gauging. Though it doesn't mean it will be perfect as there will be a lot of scenarios you can't account for and have no data or knowledge to support on. We have referenced multiple points already so id just be repeating myself at this point.
2. You are trying to make a argument that if it doesn't fix the issue 100% than you say it doesn't sovle the issue. So you are trying to look at it as white and black that way you can use that as false reasoning and say its not good because , etc.
People are not that simple, one system alone does not solve 100% of issues. It is multiple systems together that reduce the bar at which people will be willing to do it. 70% can be from the gear drop and being openly flagged, 10% can be from the accumulated gain of corruption, 5% can be from not being able to CC the player, another 10% can be not seeing players almost dead and seeing their bar to be able to get them killed by pve mobs.
Its all in levels, making it more difficult and making sure people are committed to what they are trying to do and ready to accept the consequences.
And I've pointed out that there can be other ways to tackle the problem than completely altering the way we experience pvp encounters. For example, obscuring the exact hp number like they have already done.
If you simply can't be bothered to explore those alternatives than there is not much else to talk about.
I'm sure there are. Can you provide a solution as simple as the one I have provided without affecting 4 other aspects of the game and entirely changing systems that already exist, that are fine and that require no fixes? (only balancing after testing, if necessary)
If you have a solution like this, I'll be glad to hear it. I strongly disagree with your proposal not because I'm not interested in listening to other suggestions, but because that one creates multiple other issues while attempting to deal with one. I don't care if it will be me or anyone else who comes up with a better idea as long as it solves the problem. My goal is not to push my own suggestion, but adjust the system and make its serve it purpose with little to no potential exploits.
And I've pointed out that there can be other ways to tackle the problem than completely altering the way we experience pvp encounters. For example, obscuring the exact hp number like they have already done.
If you simply can't be bothered to explore those alternatives than there is not much else to talk about.
I'm sure there are. Can you provide a solution as simple as the one I have provided without affecting 4 other aspects of the game and entirely changing systems that already exist, that are fine and that require no fixes? (only balancing after testing, if necessary)
If you have a solution like this, I'll be glad to hear it. I strongly disagree with your proposal not because I'm not interested in listening to other suggestions, but because that one creates multiple other issues while attempting to deal with one. I don't care if it will be me or anyone else who comes up with a better idea as long as it solves the problem. My goal is not to push my own suggestion, but adjust the system and make its serve it purpose with little to no potential exploits.
Hiding hp bars affects ALL aspects of pvp not "4". Its far more impactful than you are acknowledging. Just because its a single development action doesn't mean its a single in game effect.
Here is one simple, low effort and low impact solution for you: If we are worried about knowing exact HP, why don't we just show HP by sections. That prevents people from knowing the exact number.
You guys might find even that is a hard sell to non L2 players, which is about 97 percent of the MMO population. You guys have things you like and are used to, but we do too.
Hiding hp bars affects ALL aspects of pvp not "4". Its far more impactful than you are acknowledging. Just because its a single development action doesn't mean its a single in game effect.
Specify, which "ALL" aspects exactly does it affect in a NEGATIVE way? If there is multiple, then it should be easy to make a list of them, right?
Here is one simple, low effort and low impact solution for you: If we are worried about knowing exact HP, why don't we just show HP by sections. That prevents people from knowing the exact number.
This part made me realize that you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Meaning no offence, once again, this is a FACT. Because the exact HP is NOT displayed, FOUR 25% segments are shown by default and Steven mentioned that it will be possible to increase the number of segments to 6 and 8 (which will make the situation even worse for obvious reason).
You guys might find even that is a hard sell to non L2 players, which is about 97 percent of the MMO population. You guys have things you like and are used to, but we do too.
Smh, I just explained how it is NOT in my personal interest to change the way it is and I write it because it will make game better, even though some of you might not realize it at this point. If you are actually trying to have a meaningful discussion, then try to read and understand the other side, instead of turning it into "No, you" argument.
I used to have such encounters in L2, where all possible dirty tricks are acceptable and you compete with really tough players. It is NOT a problem for me to do that for 12 hours straight and then do it again the next day, but it is a problem for 95% of OTHER players, especially if they are casual. I am among those who would benefit from the current state of affairs, but here I am, trying to explain why it shouldn't be like that, so that the competition will be fair and there was both risk and reward for both sides.
Forget about what you like or don't like. Forget about what you used to or not used to. We are not discussing whether a certain cosmetic item looks pretty or not, so our subjective opinions should not matter, only rational analysis, based on common sense and experience in games with similar systems. Think what is better for the game, not for yourself.
Hiding hp bars affects ALL aspects of pvp not "4". Its far more impactful than you are acknowledging. Just because its a single development action doesn't mean its a single in game effect.
Specify, which "ALL" aspects exactly does it affect in a NEGATIVE way? If there is multiple, then it should be easy to make a list of them, right?
Here is one simple, low effort and low impact solution for you: If we are worried about knowing exact HP, why don't we just show HP by sections. That prevents people from knowing the exact number.
This part made me realize that you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Meaning no offence, once again, this is a FACT. Because the exact HP is NOT displayed, FOUR 25% segments are shown by default and Steven mentioned that it will be possible to increase the number of segments to 6 and 8 (which will make the situation even worse for obvious reason).
You guys might find even that is a hard sell to non L2 players, which is about 97 percent of the MMO population. You guys have things you like and are used to, but we do too.
Smh, I just explained how it is NOT in my personal interest to change the way it is and I write it because it will make game better, even though some of you might not realize it at this point. If you are actually trying to have a meaningful discussion, then try to read and understand the other side, instead of turning it into "No, you" argument.
I used to have such encounters in L2, where all possible dirty tricks are acceptable and you compete with really tough players. It is NOT a problem for me to do that for 12 hours straight and then do it again the next day, but it is a problem for 95% of OTHER players, especially if they are casual. I am among those who would benefit from the current state of affairs, but here I am, trying to explain why it shouldn't be like that, so that the competition will be fair and there was both risk and reward for both sides.
Forget about what you like or don't like. Forget about what you used to or not used to. We are not discussing whether a certain cosmetic item looks pretty or not, so our subjective opinions should not matter, only rational analysis, based on common sense and experience in games with similar systems. Think what is better for the game, not for yourself.
Let's just call it good. If all you're going to do is repeatedly insult and not explain your vague statements because they are "obvious", then what's the point.
I'm sure this conversation will occur many times during testing.
Let's just call it good. If all you're going to do is repeatedly insult and not explain your vague statements because they are "obvious", then what's the point.
I'm sure this conversation will occur many times during testing.
I haven't insulted you in any way, for the love of God, don't try to play the victim card. I've read what you said and it became obvious that you didn't know what you were talking about, because you suggested something that is already in game. It is a 100% fact, whether you like it or not.
There is no shame in not knowing something, but it's better to familiarize yourself with existing information prior to sharing your opinion or making a suggestion.
My statements are not vague as I provided all necessary information and details about the potential consequences of current state of affairs. Discuss facts and reasonable arguments. Don't put labels as it doesn't contribute to a healthy discussion.
I am not your enemy. I dedicated my time to write all this in attempt to make the game better, despite the fact that it is not in my best interest to change the existing situation.
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
That would separate PvEers from PvPers.
How would that work in AoC?
What do you mean by that? Attacking greens gets you corruption. That's already in the game. What separation are you talking about?
You assume players do not want to PvP.
What if they want? Or what if they are undecided? Or what if they know based on who their opponent is, that PvP is unavoidable and is better to attack first in order to survive?
How do you solve those cases?
If you add some flag which players have to voluntarily turn on, it splits the player base in PvPers and PvEers.
If you do not add that flag, you ask for Steven and all AoC players to see the act of attacking a green as a bad thing which deserves to be punished, which actually is not true.
You mentioned Eve. Explain how that works there and how attackers are punished and how you would take that over to AoC.
I must admit that removing health bars are something that we as a community would never agree to within an MMO setting. It is very important for PvE and PvP interactions and there is a reason that no mainstream MMO in the past 15 years or so has tried to do it.
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Personally I was disappointed enough to hear about the incremental health bars, this would be even worse and isn't something I would vote for I'm afraid.
I don't mind the basic idea, but the bias on those of you who are used to games where corruption exists, and the HP is hidden in order to make it more threatening, is extremely obvious. For some reason you seem to view it as the indisputable ne plus ultra solution to player killing. To me it seems obvious that these mechanisms are default choices made by developers from a genre where certain mechanics just became the norm, and so any thoroughly new games with new design philosophies would need redesigned mechanics for these systems, too.
It's also obvious to me that if Corruption is the mechanic of choice for AoC, then any player who got flagged for attacking a player should be corrupted if that player dies. If that means that a player might suicide because you attacked them on accident - well you probably shouldn't have attacked them on accident. The fact that this isn't the immediate default design choice for the Corruption mechanic is one of the reasons why these sorts of antiquated systems cause so many problems. Because everyone has their preconceived assumptions and connotations about them, and it just leads to bad decisions to circumvent problems, instead of just designing something that's internally consistent and avoids these potential concerns from scratch.
I don't mind the basic idea, but the bias on those of you who are used to games where corruption exists, and the HP is hidden in order to make it more threatening, is extremely obvious. For some reason you seem to view it as the indisputable ne plus ultra solution to player killing. To me it seems obvious that these mechanisms are default choices made by developers from a genre where certain mechanics just became the norm, and so any thoroughly new games with new design philosophies would need redesigned mechanics for these systems, too.
It's also obvious to me that if Corruption is the mechanic of choice for AoC, then any player who got flagged for attacking a player should be corrupted if that player dies. If that means that a player might suicide because you attacked them on accident - well you probably shouldn't have attacked them on accident. The fact that this isn't the immediate default design choice for the Corruption mechanic is one of the reasons why these sorts of antiquated systems cause so many problems. Because everyone has their preconceived assumptions and connotations about them, and it just leads to bad decisions to circumvent problems, instead of just designing something that's internally consistent and avoids these potential concerns from scratch.
You probably miss the point a little. There is no issue with corruption system and/or killing another player. The problem is that visible health bars of players outside your group/raid create an environment for a competition that may be consider by many players (especially casual players) as unhealthy
Everything you're saying tells me I'm not missing your point, you're just ignoring mine.
There is no issue with corruption system and/or killing another player.
Yes, there is. You have an issue with it in your original post. You're just hyperfocusing on one element enabling that issue, and turning a blind eye to the broader problems that your suggestion would leave unaddressed.
There are other ways to allow for "healthy competition for bosses or locations" than finding the perfect balance between more or less subtle forms of ratting. You could just turn it into a competition from the start and lift Corruption around certain objectives entirely, instead of playing these rhetoric games about how much risk needs to be involved for each side before you deem it a "healthy" mechanic. Or you do allow Corruption protection, but you raise the stakes: Give players in the area the boss spawned in rezz and respawn debuffs that stack, so the group that dies least often wins. There's strong incentive to go corrupt in that area, but you better come ready to stand your ground.
There are so many creative solutions for creating competition that doesn't interfere with PK protection mechanisms. You don't have to create obscure mental deterrents that don't do anything to address the bigger issue.
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You could also sit down pretending you are low on health and mana. Or remain ready to fight as if you are full.
Still the game having the corruption mechanic, players will not attack you unless the corruption is tuned down or you are corrupted. But as a corrupted player you will have to run if anyone finds you, no matter how much health you have.
Or maybe guild wars and node wars will be more common that we imagine.
How would that work in AoC?
What do you mean by that? Attacking greens gets you corruption. That's already in the game. What separation are you talking about?
Or we can go with the other end, remove corruption altogether and force people to fight or be pked and lose all their items.
Rather than than you trying tot throw a suggestion on removing owpvp pretty much. Like you are literarily suggesting when someone attacks you they have a chance to lose their equipped gear and 4* mats lol?
Thats a false equivalent. You are exaggerating what was said to push the needle the way you want.
I don't see the issue. If we have corruption, assign corruption for attacking as well as killing. If thats a problem explain how.
The corruption/flagging system in L2 was GOOD. Ashes of Creation took that system and refined it in order to mitigate the risks of griefing even more. However, HP bars were not visible in L2 but they are in AoC and this is an issue.
There is absolutely no logical necessity to change the entire idea of corruption/flagging system or make it more complicated by implementing complex decisions. There is no need to solve the problem in 3 steps, when it could be solved in one.
Forget about what you like or don't like. Forget about what you used to or not used to. We are not discussing whether a certain cosmetic item looks pretty or not, so our subjective opinions should not matter, only rational analysis, based on common sense and experience in games with similar systems. Think what is better for the game, not for yourself.
I used to have such encounters in L2, where all possible dirty tricks are acceptable and you compete with really tough players. It is NOT a problem for me to do that for 12 hours straight and then do it again the next day, but it is a problem for 95% of OTHER players, especially if they are casual. I am among those who would benefit from the current state of affairs, but here I am, trying to explain why it shouldn't be like that, so that the competition will be fair and healthy; and there is both risk and reward for both sides.
I made a video about this topic where I provide a detailed explanation about it, hope it will help you to get a better understanding of what I'm trying to say:
No, it doesn't. Killing them leads to corruption (becoming red), attacking them makes you flagged (purple)
That tells me you have not played a game involving pvp lol...First off you must not thinking the corruption system is harsh to even think of that.
Or you just don't know about the corruption system and the draw backs. I shouldnt have to explained every single one of these draw backs
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption
Effectively you are trying to suggest a player upon attack should be met with a dozen draw backs no longer able to ever cc the person they are attacking while able to be cc'd themselves. I literarily just said this a chance to drop the gear you have EQUIPED on top of 4* mats in your inventory.
Bh around the area will get pinged you have attacked someone, on top of all other players in the area able to turn on you and attack you.
You need to understand the severity of corruption as it is a mmorpg that has the highest consequences in terms of pvp and corruption.
And how could it possibly solve the issue? (Spoiler: first of all, it won't make a difference and secondly, if you watched the stream where Steven talked about, he said that there will be MORE of those segments, 6 to 8, not less)
Im not interested in forgetting about anything. I'd rather suggest that you remember that you are not playing L2 anymore.
Flagging systems exist in many games, and they show hp (or what represents hp) just fine.
The issue is that you are tieing corruption to strictly killing. Scale the corruption based on damage. If you bring somone close to death you incure almost as much corruption as actually killing them
No matter what you do, if the system only counts kills, then its wide open to exploits. People will game it whether you can see the bar or not. No need to fundamentally change the way we experience all pvp encounters in order to not fix the problem.
In 20 years of L2 you guys never fixed this issue. Maybe we need to stretch beyond their framework a bit to find answers.
Again spare me the arrogant "you clearly can't comprehend" speech.
Like I said in the above post, scale corruption to damage to a player, not as all or nothing based on a kill.
Then put scales in that up the corruption consequences as you gain more. Don't call in the bounty hunter just because you had a tussle with one player.
Centering things around one singular condition, in this case a killing blow, will cause you exploit issues no what you do. HP bars won't change that.
1. We don't play L2, but the system was taken from there.
2. "Scale the corruption based on damage", Meaning no offence, but I have a strong impression that you don't understand what you are talking about.
3. Based on your posts, you disagree because your decision is based on what suits you and what you like/want. It's not the best approach to take in such discussions.
4. "You guys never fixed the issue?". First of all, none of us are L2 devs. Secondly, that game was meant to be hardcore. Your argument makes no point and such rhetorical questions are irrelevant. It is some sort of ad hominem fallacy that is applied to the game, not the issue that we discuss
So you offer is to entirely change the flagging system. corruption system, bountry system and implement unnecessary scaling, instead of... just making a few clicks and making HP bar visible only to group/raid. Makes a lot of sense (no)
Yes, they will change it completely. It makes a counter-strategy valid which is keeping your own HP low or burning your own HP intentionally. As a result, attacker doesn't know which of his hits may eventually kill you and risks going corrupt any moment. Corruption leads to severe consequences and makes sense in exceptionally rare situations
That game is doing trinity this does not make any sense from a balance perspective....You literally aren't giving real solutions with thought process behind it based on the game.
And its arrogant because its the truth and why i linked the corruption so you could read over it since there is a lot of detail inside it.
So if you have a healer you just heal your team until the pkers tun corrupted and you get to kill them for free lmao.
Again its a terrible suggestion that leans towards pure pve and kills part of the pvp scene.
Again, don't base it strictly around the killing blow.
You have even said yourself, people will just learn to calculate damage anyway and time their attacks to not kill. Bars or no bars. It doesn't solve your issue.
How and under what circumstances you dish out corruption is the issue.
It does solve the problem, as there is a viable counter-strategy and this change provides risks for BOTH sides and I already explained how exactly it works. If it doesn't answer your question, then I don't know what will.
You just want to have HP bars in game for whatever reason and make an attempt to rationalize it. It's not the best approach to choose. Think about the game, don't touch it's core pillars (as they will not change anyway), stay on point and don't try to think of a complex solution when there is a simple solution.
And I've pointed out that there can be other ways to tackle the problem than completely altering the way we experience pvp encounters. For example, obscuring the exact hp number like they have already done.
If you simply can't be bothered to explore those alternatives than there is not much else to talk about.
You are trying to skew the argument
1. it was already mentioned it is something you can improve on and be more effective at gauging. Though it doesn't mean it will be perfect as there will be a lot of scenarios you can't account for and have no data or knowledge to support on. We have referenced multiple points already so id just be repeating myself at this point.
2. You are trying to make a argument that if it doesn't fix the issue 100% than you say it doesn't sovle the issue. So you are trying to look at it as white and black that way you can use that as false reasoning and say its not good because , etc.
People are not that simple, one system alone does not solve 100% of issues. It is multiple systems together that reduce the bar at which people will be willing to do it. 70% can be from the gear drop and being openly flagged, 10% can be from the accumulated gain of corruption, 5% can be from not being able to CC the player, another 10% can be not seeing players almost dead and seeing their bar to be able to get them killed by pve mobs.
Its all in levels, making it more difficult and making sure people are committed to what they are trying to do and ready to accept the consequences.
I'm sure there are. Can you provide a solution as simple as the one I have provided without affecting 4 other aspects of the game and entirely changing systems that already exist, that are fine and that require no fixes? (only balancing after testing, if necessary)
If you have a solution like this, I'll be glad to hear it. I strongly disagree with your proposal not because I'm not interested in listening to other suggestions, but because that one creates multiple other issues while attempting to deal with one. I don't care if it will be me or anyone else who comes up with a better idea as long as it solves the problem. My goal is not to push my own suggestion, but adjust the system and make its serve it purpose with little to no potential exploits.
Hiding hp bars affects ALL aspects of pvp not "4". Its far more impactful than you are acknowledging. Just because its a single development action doesn't mean its a single in game effect.
Here is one simple, low effort and low impact solution for you: If we are worried about knowing exact HP, why don't we just show HP by sections. That prevents people from knowing the exact number.
You guys might find even that is a hard sell to non L2 players, which is about 97 percent of the MMO population. You guys have things you like and are used to, but we do too.
Specify, which "ALL" aspects exactly does it affect in a NEGATIVE way? If there is multiple, then it should be easy to make a list of them, right?
This part made me realize that you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Meaning no offence, once again, this is a FACT. Because the exact HP is NOT displayed, FOUR 25% segments are shown by default and Steven mentioned that it will be possible to increase the number of segments to 6 and 8 (which will make the situation even worse for obvious reason).
Smh, I just explained how it is NOT in my personal interest to change the way it is and I write it because it will make game better, even though some of you might not realize it at this point. If you are actually trying to have a meaningful discussion, then try to read and understand the other side, instead of turning it into "No, you" argument.
Let's just call it good. If all you're going to do is repeatedly insult and not explain your vague statements because they are "obvious", then what's the point.
I'm sure this conversation will occur many times during testing.
I haven't insulted you in any way, for the love of God, don't try to play the victim card. I've read what you said and it became obvious that you didn't know what you were talking about, because you suggested something that is already in game. It is a 100% fact, whether you like it or not.
There is no shame in not knowing something, but it's better to familiarize yourself with existing information prior to sharing your opinion or making a suggestion.
My statements are not vague as I provided all necessary information and details about the potential consequences of current state of affairs. Discuss facts and reasonable arguments. Don't put labels as it doesn't contribute to a healthy discussion.
I am not your enemy. I dedicated my time to write all this in attempt to make the game better, despite the fact that it is not in my best interest to change the existing situation.
You assume players do not want to PvP.
What if they want? Or what if they are undecided? Or what if they know based on who their opponent is, that PvP is unavoidable and is better to attack first in order to survive?
How do you solve those cases?
If you add some flag which players have to voluntarily turn on, it splits the player base in PvPers and PvEers.
If you do not add that flag, you ask for Steven and all AoC players to see the act of attacking a green as a bad thing which deserves to be punished, which actually is not true.
You mentioned Eve. Explain how that works there and how attackers are punished and how you would take that over to AoC.
It's also obvious to me that if Corruption is the mechanic of choice for AoC, then any player who got flagged for attacking a player should be corrupted if that player dies. If that means that a player might suicide because you attacked them on accident - well you probably shouldn't have attacked them on accident. The fact that this isn't the immediate default design choice for the Corruption mechanic is one of the reasons why these sorts of antiquated systems cause so many problems. Because everyone has their preconceived assumptions and connotations about them, and it just leads to bad decisions to circumvent problems, instead of just designing something that's internally consistent and avoids these potential concerns from scratch.
You probably miss the point a little. There is no issue with corruption system and/or killing another player. The problem is that visible health bars of players outside your group/raid create an environment for a competition that may be consider by many players (especially casual players) as unhealthy
Yes, there is. You have an issue with it in your original post. You're just hyperfocusing on one element enabling that issue, and turning a blind eye to the broader problems that your suggestion would leave unaddressed.
There are other ways to allow for "healthy competition for bosses or locations" than finding the perfect balance between more or less subtle forms of ratting. You could just turn it into a competition from the start and lift Corruption around certain objectives entirely, instead of playing these rhetoric games about how much risk needs to be involved for each side before you deem it a "healthy" mechanic. Or you do allow Corruption protection, but you raise the stakes: Give players in the area the boss spawned in rezz and respawn debuffs that stack, so the group that dies least often wins. There's strong incentive to go corrupt in that area, but you better come ready to stand your ground.
There are so many creative solutions for creating competition that doesn't interfere with PK protection mechanisms. You don't have to create obscure mental deterrents that don't do anything to address the bigger issue.