does combat need a revamp?

as for the graphics and esthetics of the game everything is looking great and the more time that passes it looks better and better each live stream, however one issue i have and this may just be my opinion but having such a long development cycle for this game has the issue that combat needs to be revamped or overhauled 3-4x before we even launch, there are so many positives about the game over the past year however the combat to me still looks extremely dull, slow-paced and almost looks like a isometric game whilst watching it, ( think diablo ) this might feel way different when actually playing the game so take that with a grain of salt but does anyone have any suggestions or feedback for this?

a good example to me would be mage in wow dragon flight vs mage in AoC, i don't play wow but from the shorts i have seen the mage in wow looks super reactive, versatile, fast paced, exactly what a mage should be, the mage in AoC looks like its trying to play while it has 2 feet and an arm in quicksand, the abilities are slow, the combat isn't reactive, blizzard looks terrible to use as it almost ccs your self and it just doesn't seem fun to play, this isnt a FuD or critique post just my opinions and id love to hear yours, have a great day!

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Mag7spy

I'm waiting for that UE6 revamp

Ludullu

Chicago wrote: »

those asking for references here are some

I didn't go frame by frame, but cast times seem to be somewhat similar (with maybe a few more high impact spells in Ashes, which are slightly slower for balancing reasons).

I see your point about the lightning ball in Ashes, but I'd hope/imagine that augments and buffs will give us the ability to speed things up - both cast speeds and spell effects. The ever-fucking-present example of "rush becomes a blink" is best representation of that. Instead of a rush that might take 1.5-2s of animation, the blink would probably be closer to 1-1.5s over the same distance.

Also, afaik wow relies on casts more than on casts+basic attacks. Ashes will supposedly rely on the combo of abilities and basic attacks (cause procs and shit), so while the abilities might be on a slightly slower side (with higher impact) - overall combat is faster because you're also spamming some basic attacks to gain procs.

Azherae

Chicago wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Yes, we should definitely have a tenth full redesign of the combat before even entering A2. Then we'll have 20 more redesigns during A2 and then when the game comes out Intrepid will need to do at least 3 more, because people will complain then too.

That would definitely be the most logical and reasonable way to do things

i love how impossible it is to actually have a conversation about anything on these forums without posts like this but okay mate you obviously know thats not what i was saying

Nope, this time we seriously do not actually know what you're saying.

There are many different types of combat for many different MMOs

Chicago wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

those asking for

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw

like just as an example in my opinion little things like having a cast time on a spell that then creates a ball that moves in slow motion towards the enemy looks like it would feel super bad, make it move faster or remove the cast time, by the way i am aware it may feel totally different whilst playing the game

Ok, to get the first bit out of the way, if your main problem is the lightning ball, just 'don't take that skill' and the whole kit would feel faster, right? Some mages like slow big stuff, some don't.

If I assume you think 'everything' is slow, unlike NiKr I do like to step through frame by frame, and Ashes is the same or faster. What Intrepid might not have mastered yet is the BDO trick of having more individual flashy parts happen to mask the fact that it's moving at the standard game design speed.

Designers literally know this, human brains are super easy to trick this way. You want someone to feel an ability is 'more effective'? Shoot 10 shots in 1 second instead of 4. It doesn't matter if they have the same total animation time, same damage, and same ability to move while shooting.

People just wanna see more stuff seem to happen in the same amount of time.

Some days I just wanna build Prophecy Typhoon Skysplitter Sevarog just to see my basic attack rate go whoosh. Am I more effective? Nah. Most of the time it's less because Predecessor is an actual Hybrid Combat game and wobbling my view around to make it feel like I'm 'reacting' might make all those hammer swings miss.

That's the other part, btw. The Ashes part didn't have the 'camera wiggle'. If you want to feel like you're playing a faster game, wiggle your camera more. Especially during your 2-5s of being CCed and unable to do anything. Or take a quick look 90 degrees to either side right as your animation for a Tab Targeted attack starts to 'watch for other enemies'.

That should be enough to make Ashes combat feel the same as WoW, that's the 'difference you feel when you get your hands on it'. The game isn't different, you're just 'more frantic'.

I'd fear the player who makes WoW PvP look slow, because they're the one with the least wasted motion.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

Designers literally know this, human brains are super easy to trick this way. You want someone to feel an ability is 'more effective'? Shoot 10 shots in 1 second instead of 4. It doesn't matter if they have the same total animation time, same damage, and same ability to move while shooting.

People just wanna see more stuff seem to happen in the same amount of time.

It was either Margret or Toast that told a story on a livestream a few years ago about players complaining that an ability wasnt strong enough.

Developers went through the data and found that if anything it was a little too strong. They tweaked the graphics to make the casting animation feel a bit more grand, and those same players posted a thanks to the developers for making the ability stronger.

Point is, many people have no idea about anything in an MMO other than how something looks and feels. They dont want to get any more detailed than that, and so dont.

Dezemi

Chicago wrote: »

those asking for

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw

So, as someone who has played WoW as well, and dreadful music aside...

If I am completely honest, I am quite certain that the WoW video you linked isn't too far off from where AoC is headed. Remember that you are comparing a max level mage of WoW to a level 15 mage of Verra. xd

Imo, the mage gameplay in that WoW video is not very "fast" per se, but it is a mix of weaving instantanous spells and casted spells (and standing there silenced xd ). I think most of the illusion comes from the upbeat music and the blinking WeakAuras that the WoW guy has installed. Also, remember that it is very different to watch people playing PvP vs people playing PvE in open world. Honestly, I think AoC is going to be played much smoother and quicker than the mage of WoW when they hit endgame with quicker casting times through better gear and/or skill/weapon augments.

Personally, I am not sure if that is the ideal kind of gameplay that I'd prefer - I would take GW1 or GW2s combat over WoWs any day, because of the kit design and the choice beteen your abilities.... And even if there are spells like the Blizzard spell that slows the character down (there are spells like that in GW2 as well), they are still mobile as opposed to many WoW casts that actually require the caster to stand absolutely still like a target dummy (thank you, thank you, thank you, Intrepid for not going that route). And while WoWs combat certainly isn't what makes it fun, I can "live with it," should Intrepid choose to take combat in that direction, but right now I am very pleased with where it is at. But alas, I share @ILLPeonU s take - combat is not "make or break" for me, as long as it is decent enough I'll live with it...

Blip

We should see more combat and action mode as well, not the tab targeting crap all the time.

Its suposed to be hybrid but we never see that side in streams. I dont think they have a working prototype even or they just given up on hybrid tab/action combat all together.

Ether way they need to show more before we talk redesign.

TheDarkSorcerer

I truly get what you are saying regarding the mage. I feel the same way... But I think it's mainly coming from games like ESO where Sorcerers have insane mobility and speed. As far as doing an revamp, I don't think that will be be happening until they get feedback from A2.

KingDDD

Gcds between games seem to be roughly the exact same. Level, pvp, combat depth, animation tricks are all factors for why wow looks so much more entertaining in this clip comparison. I've always thought allowing a small amount of movement while casting makes the game feel slower, but feel is completely subjective.

The discussion and feedback process for this game suffers from being an echo chamber. While it's no different than any other MMO prerelease, I do wonder how much the poor feedback process has hurt the development of games I've watched ranging from Vanguard to Crowfall. After seeing the office hours yesterday, this game is in desperate need of feedback from different sources. I hope you continue to share your feedback.

MissionCreep

Combat is not in a finished state. At all.

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