Making the case against level cap increases in expansions.

I strongly believe increasing the adventuring level cap in Ashes of Creation after launch is a bad idea for the game, and here are a few of the reasons why:

1. It adds unnecessary development time for each expansion, slowing the pace of content releases.
Increasing the level cap means having to rewrite and change existing areas and content to make room for the new levels, regardless of any new areas being added to the game. Some change to the world is both needed and expected with any major expansion obviously, but the negative impact on existing content will be less if the level cap stays the same.

The ZOI of a node is fixed in size. They can either add more areas under ground or in the sky, or they can shrink the existing lvl 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 etc. areas within each ZOI to make room for the lvl 51-60 and later on the lvl 61-70 stuff, and so on. It's going to feel cramped. Either way, significant changes to the world geography is necessary for each level cap increase, unless all the higher-level content is instanced or moved to an entirely new region. Both those options would be terrible for the game in so many other ways. For the game to function properly, the world needs a pretty active player base in the open world in and around the existing nodes.

2. It makes major pieces of content that Intrepid have spent years making somewhat obsolete.
From itemization to questlines and story arcs, to dungeons and world bosses, all carefully crafted and balanced to give us a great levelling experience to max level, and great gameplay loops while at max level.

It nullifies the progress the players have made with their characters while at the level cap to a large extent. Especially in terms of gearing. That legendary you worked months to get the materials for, sieging other nodes for their relevant relics for crafting, and farming world bosses, is now comparatively worthless compared to a rare you can get in an hour or less at the new max level.

I absolutely want to explore new zones and areas in expansions, especially that harbinger moon, but I also very much want existing old lvl 50 content still be relevant at max level, and not have my progress reset.

Unless they want to pull a WoW and only release major expansions every 1-2 years, I doubt they can match both the quantity and the quality of the initial max level content with their currently planned schedule of releasing content on a monthly, quarterly and six-monthly basis.

3. Time to reach max level and new player acquisition and retention.
It forces Intrepid to either make levelling faster for newbies, as a catch-up mechanic, which means they are more likely to skip content as they blaze through levels, making the entire experience poorer. Or they can keep the levelling speed the same which prolongs the journey to max level for newbies significantly. This can make it harder to retain them, or even get them to sign up in the first place if they think it'll take too long to reach the max level.

Better solutions
There are superior ways of continuing character progression in expansions, both vertical and horizontal, that have already successfully been done in other games in the past.

Dark Age of Camelot was the first MMORPG where I saw a fixed level cap at 50 even with expansions, where they added Master Levels and Realm Ranks to progress. You increased your Master Level by completing trials, which rewarded you with special abilities depending on both class and the skill path you chose. Realm Ranks were gained in RvR (PvP) and you got bonuses to all skills as well as the ability to spend points on skill enhancements and prestige titles. These two systems combined provided players with both vertical and horizontal character progression without completely making old content obsolete. The obvious translation to Ashes would be extra skills and access to powerful augments as players progress.

Guild Wars 2 has the Mastery system, where lvl 80 (max) players can earn mastery points in different masteries which provide account-wide benefits such as gliding, mounts, and other unique abilities. I don't think we should have account wide bonuses in Ashes, but many of the aspects of the GW2 mastery system could be used as inspiration for an Ashes mastery system.

Elder Scrolls Online has the Champion system, where players after hitting lvl 50 (max) start earning champion points they can put into account-wide bonuses that are mostly passive in nature. Again, I don't want account-wide bonuses for Ashes I think, but the basic system with the different champion point trees is something that Ashes can be inspired by.

I don't want to make this post any longer, so I'll wrap it up here. I really hope Intrepid/Steven reconsider their current plans of level cap increases and adopt a smarter system inspired by the successes of the other three games above. It's going to fit so much better with the node system and the lack of level-based zones in Ashes.

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arsnn

I dont think the arguments at the beginning of the thread are convincing.
I think sometimes players are stuck too much in referencing other games.
A level cap increase or other vertical progression systems (whatever they are called), dont come with a set of properties that are carved in stone.

Ultimately you can construct any system how you want it, depending on the properties you want it to have. Things like „adding unnecessary development time, making content obsolete or dividing the playerbase too much“ are also true for eso‘s champion points and dont need to be true for a level cap increase in AoC.

I think the reason why many developers tend to introduce these systems after the level cap, is to give the player base a new shiny thing to chase. And that is important imo, but they are often rather shallow and essentially function like a level cap increase (the increments often differ though).

I currently dont see how a level cap increase would hurt AoC. But there definitely should be new exciting things to shake up the progression chase and introduce new avenues to build out your character.

Nerror

arsnn wrote: »

I dont think the arguments at the beginning of the thread are convincing.
I think sometimes players are stuck too much in referencing other games.
A level cap increase or other vertical progression systems (whatever they are called), dont come with a set of properties that are carved in stone.

Ultimately you can construct any system how you want it, depending on the properties you want it to have. Things like „adding unnecessary development time, making content obsolete or dividing the playerbase too much“ are also true for eso‘s champion points and dont need to be true for a level cap increase in AoC.

I think the reason why many developers tend to introduce these systems after the level cap, is to give the player base a new shiny thing to chase. And that is important imo, but they are often rather shallow and essentially function like a level cap increase (the increments often differ though).

I currently dont see how a level cap increase would hurt AoC. But there definitely should be new exciting things to shake up the progression chase and introduce new avenues to build out your character.

Implementation is key obviously. You can make a horrible alternate progression system. The Champion system of ESO is my least favourite of the three I mentioned, and DAoCs is my preferred. I am not advocating copying them straight up, but being inspired by them.

But so far I have never seen an example of a level cap increase that wasn't bad for an MMORPG, so that's my reference. If Intrepid has some genius never-before-seen way of doing it, I am all ears.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

It’s one thing to make people get new and improved gear from new recipes found in the world, it’s another to tell a player, guess what you’re not max level anymore, go grind 10 more levels AND get new gear. It’s a mechanic that made many leave games like WoW making their time devalued.

Mag7spy

Nerror wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Jhoren wrote: »

A WoW style increase of level cap is a bad idea. It's like an almost total power and progress reset. All the time spent at max level is worthless in terms of character progress. Assuming a level cap increase to 60, a new player and a veteran player will be at exactly the same progress once they hit lvl 54 for example. For some games, a progress reset is fine. Even needed. Not for MMORPGs IMO.

I understand that people who have never tried alternate ways to progress like outlined in the OP might be hesitant. And people also like to see numbers go up. But all that is still possible with a mastery/master level/champion/prestige system. You still get the long-term progress and numbers going up and ability to work up towards more challenging content. What you avoid is that almost complete progress reset we normally see with a level cap increase, because all your nice gear is still relevant. At least if the alternate progress system is implemented well.

As for level scaling and level sync, it seems like they don't want to do it like we know from other games. But they are going to implement a mentor program: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mentor_program

I am a little unsure exactly how that will work, just from the description we have now.

That is the point you will be at the same power, meaning the new content will be equal for both players to experience.

You fear reeks of not wanting to worry about needing to progress anymore in a mmorpg or thinking you should be able to grind infinite power without cap or loss ever...

Not a fan of any kind of suggestion where one tries to say infinite play time can mean infinite strength and that is how one can beat someone.

That's not how those other systems work. You've clearly never tried them so it's fair that you don't know, but it's not about infinite power given infinite time. That's obviously silly and bad design. It's about not shitting on the players that have put in the time, and providing a better and more gradual progression over time. New players can still catch up, but it won't leave older players with that feeling of it all being worthless every time the level cap increases.

There are only a few mmorpgs i haven't played, either progression is relevant or it is not relevant. If these extra mastery levels are giving any kind of power more dmg / hp / etc than you are talking about booster power infinitely. If you are trying to suggest it makes almost 0 difference in power no matter how much someone plays it isn't relevant.

"Shitting on players" no one craping on players, they are being given more content and a chance to grow evenly with everyone. If you are worried about you won't be competitive since people are on a even playing field that is literarily the point. Mmorpg progression is part of the game no matter how the devs choose to do something with that progression your current gear is not going to be useful as you will have to get new items regardless.

It doesn't matter how hard you want the devs to bloat the game trying to get them add mastery levels, prestige class level, etc you are asking them to over bloat the game and ruin the balance because you don't want to level and gear up again. And than expecting new players to need to figure out 100 other systems and level progression nd just make the game a overall worse experience.

And no mater how you want to mask it up, that is still the exact same result. Your current gear is useless so you need to get other pieces / upgrades / etc to be relevant. So it becomes the exact same thing as releveling up where your current gear is useless and you don't even realize it.

The only way this makes sense is if you start advocating for a completely different progression system in a mmorpg not based on not based on gear. Unless you bring points in relationship AoC shouldn't have gearing as a means for increased power this point isn't going to stand.

Long story short to sum it up, you are asking for increased bloat of the game with multiple progression adventuring level systems to create bloat and still leading to the same result of leveling but creating a worse experience for new players.

Anyone for feels worseless because there is new content in the game and a reason to gear up, challenge content and players, are really not about playing a mmorpg and just sitting and doing nothing or flexing once power in awhile. People literally scared of change and unable to adapt. If level increases go up multiple times it sounds like the game has been going strong for like 5 years which is a good sign.

Azherae

Nerror wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

I dont think the arguments at the beginning of the thread are convincing.
I think sometimes players are stuck too much in referencing other games.
A level cap increase or other vertical progression systems (whatever they are called), dont come with a set of properties that are carved in stone.

Ultimately you can construct any system how you want it, depending on the properties you want it to have. Things like „adding unnecessary development time, making content obsolete or dividing the playerbase too much“ are also true for eso‘s champion points and dont need to be true for a level cap increase in AoC.

I think the reason why many developers tend to introduce these systems after the level cap, is to give the player base a new shiny thing to chase. And that is important imo, but they are often rather shallow and essentially function like a level cap increase (the increments often differ though).

I currently dont see how a level cap increase would hurt AoC. But there definitely should be new exciting things to shake up the progression chase and introduce new avenues to build out your character.

Implementation is key obviously. You can make a horrible alternate progression system. The Champion system of ESO is my least favourite of the three I mentioned, and DAoCs is my preferred. I am not advocating copying them straight up, but being inspired by them.

But so far I have never seen an example of a level cap increase that wasn't bad for an MMORPG, so that's my reference. If Intrepid has some genius never-before-seen way of doing it, I am all ears.

As always I can confirm something said earlier in the thread, that all early level caps for FFXI were, at worst, neutral to the long term flow and health of the game.

I believe they all got the usual complaints, though, from people who wanted to get to the end faster. They got additional complaints from those who did get to the end faster, realize that a lot of older content was still relevant, and then got irritated that they had to 'go back and do it'.

Pleasing the majority of MMO audiences at once is an endurance problem.

Nerror

Mag7spy wrote: »

And no mater how you want to mask it up, that is still the exact same result. Your current gear is useless so you need to get other pieces / upgrades / etc to be relevant. So it becomes the exact same thing as releveling up where your current gear is useless and you don't even realize it.

The only way this makes sense is if you start advocating for a completely different progression system in a mmorpg not based on not based on gear. Unless you bring points in relationship AoC shouldn't have gearing as a means for increased power this point isn't going to stand.

Long story short to sum it up, you are asking for increased bloat of the game with multiple progression adventuring level systems to create bloat and still leading to the same result of leveling but creating a worse experience for new players..

Gear not being the primary means of progression is one of the main benefits of those alternate progression systems. That's the whole point and a good thing IMO. I want character progression, not gear progression as primary. The character should get stronger, not their tools. New gear can still enter the game and be nice and relevant without making the old gear completely obsolete. Just increasing character levels like we've seen in many games is a crappy way to do that for the reasons already mentioned.

So no, it's not bloat for the same result. At all. It's just a different system of progression that provides for a superior gameplay, IMO, without all the major downsides to old content.

Nerror

Azherae wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

I dont think the arguments at the beginning of the thread are convincing.
I think sometimes players are stuck too much in referencing other games.
A level cap increase or other vertical progression systems (whatever they are called), dont come with a set of properties that are carved in stone.

Ultimately you can construct any system how you want it, depending on the properties you want it to have. Things like „adding unnecessary development time, making content obsolete or dividing the playerbase too much“ are also true for eso‘s champion points and dont need to be true for a level cap increase in AoC.

I think the reason why many developers tend to introduce these systems after the level cap, is to give the player base a new shiny thing to chase. And that is important imo, but they are often rather shallow and essentially function like a level cap increase (the increments often differ though).

I currently dont see how a level cap increase would hurt AoC. But there definitely should be new exciting things to shake up the progression chase and introduce new avenues to build out your character.

Implementation is key obviously. You can make a horrible alternate progression system. The Champion system of ESO is my least favourite of the three I mentioned, and DAoCs is my preferred. I am not advocating copying them straight up, but being inspired by them.

But so far I have never seen an example of a level cap increase that wasn't bad for an MMORPG, so that's my reference. If Intrepid has some genius never-before-seen way of doing it, I am all ears.

As always I can confirm something said earlier in the thread, that all early level caps for FFXI were, at worst, neutral to the long term flow and health of the game.

I believe they all got the usual complaints, though, from people who wanted to get to the end faster. They got additional complaints from those who did get to the end faster, realize that a lot of older content was still relevant, and then got irritated that they had to 'go back and do it'.

Pleasing the majority of MMO audiences at once is an endurance problem.

FFXI was one I never played. How did they make the old content relevant? Was it like attunement stuff like Killion's examples? Or did it give skills or something?

Azherae

Nerror wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

I dont think the arguments at the beginning of the thread are convincing.
I think sometimes players are stuck too much in referencing other games.
A level cap increase or other vertical progression systems (whatever they are called), dont come with a set of properties that are carved in stone.

Ultimately you can construct any system how you want it, depending on the properties you want it to have. Things like „adding unnecessary development time, making content obsolete or dividing the playerbase too much“ are also true for eso‘s champion points and dont need to be true for a level cap increase in AoC.

I think the reason why many developers tend to introduce these systems after the level cap, is to give the player base a new shiny thing to chase. And that is important imo, but they are often rather shallow and essentially function like a level cap increase (the increments often differ though).

I currently dont see how a level cap increase would hurt AoC. But there definitely should be new exciting things to shake up the progression chase and introduce new avenues to build out your character.

Implementation is key obviously. You can make a horrible alternate progression system. The Champion system of ESO is my least favourite of the three I mentioned, and DAoCs is my preferred. I am not advocating copying them straight up, but being inspired by them.

But so far I have never seen an example of a level cap increase that wasn't bad for an MMORPG, so that's my reference. If Intrepid has some genius never-before-seen way of doing it, I am all ears.

As always I can confirm something said earlier in the thread, that all early level caps for FFXI were, at worst, neutral to the long term flow and health of the game.

I believe they all got the usual complaints, though, from people who wanted to get to the end faster. They got additional complaints from those who did get to the end faster, realize that a lot of older content was still relevant, and then got irritated that they had to 'go back and do it'.

Pleasing the majority of MMO audiences at once is an endurance problem.

FFXI was one I never played. How did they make the old content relevant? Was it like attunement stuff like Killion's examples? Or did it give skills or something?

FFXI just doesn't throw all gear into the same effectiveness pile. It has more stats and functions to the gear so your goal isn't always just 'get latest higher level gear piece'.

The result is actually that as you level up, the driving force for you to actually go get the next gear piece is because you have conceptualized an entirely new build or entirely new rebalance of your build. You can't just 'get the latest thing and it be better'.

Secondarily, I should clarify something about what I mean when I say 'level Capped' content. I mean content that literally restricts a level 60 player to level 40 abilities (and originally, to level 40 gear, until Level Sync got worked out properly and you could wear your level 60 gear but it would downgrade and lose certain abilities).

While the 'easiest to achieve' gear at any given level is more powerful than the 'easiest to achieve' gear at a lower level, this doesn't track linearly for 'hard to get gear'. But these two systems worked together. So you could have level 60 gear, that drops from a Level 60 Instance.

The difference between a player who 'put in the time' is their skill at doing that instance:
A new level 60 finds it difficult because they aren't experienced yet.
A new level 75 finds it difficult because they are only slightly more experienced.
A veteran level 60 who just didn't rush, finds it easier (perhaps they practiced this fight a lot)
A veteran level 75 who still has good level 60 gear also finds it easier (just played more in general).

There's obviously way way more to it than that, since this applies to a massive amount of horizontal progression and 'differential content goals' on top of it.

Recent games don't even have elemental defenses sometimes, far less complex builds, so there's much less way to do it. 'Number go up?' is the answer for many of the 'I don't really understand MMOs but I wanna make the WoW-killer' design styles.

Mag7spy

Nerror wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

And no mater how you want to mask it up, that is still the exact same result. Your current gear is useless so you need to get other pieces / upgrades / etc to be relevant. So it becomes the exact same thing as releveling up where your current gear is useless and you don't even realize it.

The only way this makes sense is if you start advocating for a completely different progression system in a mmorpg not based on not based on gear. Unless you bring points in relationship AoC shouldn't have gearing as a means for increased power this point isn't going to stand.

Long story short to sum it up, you are asking for increased bloat of the game with multiple progression adventuring level systems to create bloat and still leading to the same result of leveling but creating a worse experience for new players..

Gear not being the primary means of progression is one of the main benefits of those alternate progression systems. That's the whole point and a good thing IMO. I want character progression, not gear progression as primary. The character should get not stronger, not their tools. Just increasing character levels like we've seen in many games is a crappy way to do that for the reasons already mentioned.

So no, it's not bloat for the same result. At all. It's just a different system of progression that provides for a superior gameplay, IMO, without all the major downsides to old content.

It really is not superior gameplay I already listed off a bunch of points. But we can focus on certain elements so the conversation doesn't get convoluted.

So with you being more clear you are saying you do not want gear nor level progression. So for that to be the case that means different rarities of gear should not really be a thing else gear has an influence. That means your basic sword your using should be the same from lvl 1-50 or not generally have a large impact on your raw power / defense gameplay. That goes for armor and jewelry as well (doesn't mean you can't have different builds).

So pretty much gear level 1-50 works the same with the same power and builds between items not creating large varying differences in reducing your ability to complete pve challenges.

Unsure how people will feel about the above, doesn't really seem like AoC is going in that direction with your gear.

Onto the point about bloat you are effectively saying you get all your power from levels, so pretty much whoever plays more is the one who is stronger until everyone hits max level. Though what I mean by bloat is if the game is going to add new challenges and since you don't get your power from gear but instead mastery or weird prestige systems.

So being a max level character with a new expansion comes out the game wants you get upgrade your which is not as straight forward as simply leveling. As an example you effectively have to do certain task to gain this kind of power to increase it, than there is another way they increase your power maybe a different kind of enhancement system to push your weapons even stronger with a different system tied to that, than they had prestige levels that give your class new abilities and you have to do different stuff for that.

My point being rather than this being a more slow thing to happen overtime you are effectively speeding up this process to add new powers to players in expansions and bloating up the game with all these additional things players have to do. And starting to alienate new potential player bases more and more. To the point being when you play the game you have to worry about 10 different progression systems.

That is what i mean by bloat, also people reference older makes mainly the DoAC, shadowbane, darkfall etc. Those games don't compare to the pve content of post WoW as they were more focused on PvP.

Growth will happen on a accelerated rate with a PvE game over a PvP focused mmorpg. And AoC plans to have good PvE content so there will be more growth on AoC compared to pvp focsued mmorpgs.

The thing is anyway is no one is really getting craped on your power is still going to be the same at that point you aren't going to be suddenly weaker. But if you want to take on new challenges you will need new power for that and leveling is a easier way for them to accomplish leveling the playing field without resorting to only relying on adding new mechanics.

Also I don't think AoC is going to angle of gear doesn't provide power, gear and levels will both be important and honestly i prefer that because it makes me feel like I'm playing a mmorpg. Both of course need to be balanced knowing there is pvp in this game that is quite important.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

And no mater how you want to mask it up, that is still the exact same result. Your current gear is useless so you need to get other pieces / upgrades / etc to be relevant. So it becomes the exact same thing as releveling up where your current gear is useless and you don't even realize it.

The only way this makes sense is if you start advocating for a completely different progression system in a mmorpg not based on not based on gear. Unless you bring points in relationship AoC shouldn't have gearing as a means for increased power this point isn't going to stand.

Long story short to sum it up, you are asking for increased bloat of the game with multiple progression adventuring level systems to create bloat and still leading to the same result of leveling but creating a worse experience for new players..

Gear not being the primary means of progression is one of the main benefits of those alternate progression systems. That's the whole point and a good thing IMO. I want character progression, not gear progression as primary. The character should get not stronger, not their tools. Just increasing character levels like we've seen in many games is a crappy way to do that for the reasons already mentioned.

So no, it's not bloat for the same result. At all. It's just a different system of progression that provides for a superior gameplay, IMO, without all the major downsides to old content.

It really is not superior gameplay I already listed off a bunch of points. But we can focus on certain elements so the conversation doesn't get convoluted.

So with you being more clear you are saying you do not want gear nor level progression. So for that to be the case that means different rarities of gear should not really be a thing else gear has an influence. That means your basic sword your using should be the same from lvl 1-50 or not generally have a large impact on your raw power / defense gameplay. That goes for armor and jewelry as well (doesn't mean you can't have different builds).

So pretty much gear level 1-50 works the same with the same power and builds between items not creating large varying differences in reducing your ability to complete pve challenges.

Unsure how people will feel about the above, doesn't really seem like AoC is going in that direction with your gear.

Onto the point about bloat you are effectively saying you get all your power from levels, so pretty much whoever plays more is the one who is stronger until everyone hits max level. Though what I mean by bloat is if the game is going to add new challenges and since you don't get your power from gear but instead mastery or weird prestige systems.

So being a max level character with a new expansion comes out the game wants you get upgrade your which is not as straight forward as simply leveling. As an example you effectively have to do certain task to gain this kind of power to increase it, than there is another way they increase your power maybe a different kind of enhancement system to push your weapons even stronger with a different system tied to that, than they had prestige levels that give your class new abilities and you have to do different stuff for that.

My point being rather than this being a more slow thing to happen overtime you are effectively speeding up this process to add new powers to players in expansions and bloating up the game with all these additional things players have to do. And starting to alienate new potential player bases more and more. To the point being when you play the game you have to worry about 10 different progression systems.

That is what i mean by bloat, also people reference older makes mainly the DoAC, shadowbane, darkfall etc. Those games don't compare to the pve content of post WoW as they were more focused on PvP.

Growth will happen on a accelerated rate with a PvE game over a PvP focused mmorpg. And AoC plans to have good PvE content so there will be more growth on AoC compared to pvp focsued mmorpgs.

The thing is anyway is no one is really getting craped on your power is still going to be the same at that point you aren't going to be suddenly weaker. But if you want to take on new challenges you will need new power for that and leveling is a easier way for them to accomplish leveling the playing field without resorting to only relying on adding new mechanics.

Also I don't think AoC is going to angle of gear doesn't provide power, gear and levels will both be important and honestly i prefer that because it makes me feel like I'm playing a mmorpg. Both of course need to be balanced knowing there is pvp in this game that is quite important.

My parser labels this post 88% Strawman Argument, for those who don't feel like reading through it.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

And no mater how you want to mask it up, that is still the exact same result. Your current gear is useless so you need to get other pieces / upgrades / etc to be relevant. So it becomes the exact same thing as releveling up where your current gear is useless and you don't even realize it.

The only way this makes sense is if you start advocating for a completely different progression system in a mmorpg not based on not based on gear. Unless you bring points in relationship AoC shouldn't have gearing as a means for increased power this point isn't going to stand.

Long story short to sum it up, you are asking for increased bloat of the game with multiple progression adventuring level systems to create bloat and still leading to the same result of leveling but creating a worse experience for new players..

Gear not being the primary means of progression is one of the main benefits of those alternate progression systems. That's the whole point and a good thing IMO. I want character progression, not gear progression as primary. The character should get not stronger, not their tools. Just increasing character levels like we've seen in many games is a crappy way to do that for the reasons already mentioned.

So no, it's not bloat for the same result. At all. It's just a different system of progression that provides for a superior gameplay, IMO, without all the major downsides to old content.

It really is not superior gameplay I already listed off a bunch of points. But we can focus on certain elements so the conversation doesn't get convoluted.

So with you being more clear you are saying you do not want gear nor level progression. So for that to be the case that means different rarities of gear should not really be a thing else gear has an influence. That means your basic sword your using should be the same from lvl 1-50 or not generally have a large impact on your raw power / defense gameplay. That goes for armor and jewelry as well (doesn't mean you can't have different builds).

So pretty much gear level 1-50 works the same with the same power and builds between items not creating large varying differences in reducing your ability to complete pve challenges.

Unsure how people will feel about the above, doesn't really seem like AoC is going in that direction with your gear.

Onto the point about bloat you are effectively saying you get all your power from levels, so pretty much whoever plays more is the one who is stronger until everyone hits max level. Though what I mean by bloat is if the game is going to add new challenges and since you don't get your power from gear but instead mastery or weird prestige systems.

So being a max level character with a new expansion comes out the game wants you get upgrade your which is not as straight forward as simply leveling. As an example you effectively have to do certain task to gain this kind of power to increase it, than there is another way they increase your power maybe a different kind of enhancement system to push your weapons even stronger with a different system tied to that, than they had prestige levels that give your class new abilities and you have to do different stuff for that.

My point being rather than this being a more slow thing to happen overtime you are effectively speeding up this process to add new powers to players in expansions and bloating up the game with all these additional things players have to do. And starting to alienate new potential player bases more and more. To the point being when you play the game you have to worry about 10 different progression systems.

That is what i mean by bloat, also people reference older makes mainly the DoAC, shadowbane, darkfall etc. Those games don't compare to the pve content of post WoW as they were more focused on PvP.

Growth will happen on a accelerated rate with a PvE game over a PvP focused mmorpg. And AoC plans to have good PvE content so there will be more growth on AoC compared to pvp focsued mmorpgs.

The thing is anyway is no one is really getting craped on your power is still going to be the same at that point you aren't going to be suddenly weaker. But if you want to take on new challenges you will need new power for that and leveling is a easier way for them to accomplish leveling the playing field without resorting to only relying on adding new mechanics.

Also I don't think AoC is going to angle of gear doesn't provide power, gear and levels will both be important and honestly i prefer that because it makes me feel like I'm playing a mmorpg. Both of course need to be balanced knowing there is pvp in this game that is quite important.

My parser labels this post 88% Strawman Argument, for those who don't feel like reading through it.

If you want to challenge the points feel free to rather than trying to use a broad term, if you are here trying to push gear / level is not where you gain power. Doesn't add anything relevant to the disccusion. Please speak with your own words.

I want character progression, not gear progression as primary

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

And no mater how you want to mask it up, that is still the exact same result. Your current gear is useless so you need to get other pieces / upgrades / etc to be relevant. So it becomes the exact same thing as releveling up where your current gear is useless and you don't even realize it.

The only way this makes sense is if you start advocating for a completely different progression system in a mmorpg not based on not based on gear. Unless you bring points in relationship AoC shouldn't have gearing as a means for increased power this point isn't going to stand.

Long story short to sum it up, you are asking for increased bloat of the game with multiple progression adventuring level systems to create bloat and still leading to the same result of leveling but creating a worse experience for new players..

Gear not being the primary means of progression is one of the main benefits of those alternate progression systems. That's the whole point and a good thing IMO. I want character progression, not gear progression as primary. The character should get not stronger, not their tools. Just increasing character levels like we've seen in many games is a crappy way to do that for the reasons already mentioned.

So no, it's not bloat for the same result. At all. It's just a different system of progression that provides for a superior gameplay, IMO, without all the major downsides to old content.

It really is not superior gameplay I already listed off a bunch of points. But we can focus on certain elements so the conversation doesn't get convoluted.

So with you being more clear you are saying you do not want gear nor level progression. So for that to be the case that means different rarities of gear should not really be a thing else gear has an influence. That means your basic sword your using should be the same from lvl 1-50 or not generally have a large impact on your raw power / defense gameplay. That goes for armor and jewelry as well (doesn't mean you can't have different builds).

So pretty much gear level 1-50 works the same with the same power and builds between items not creating large varying differences in reducing your ability to complete pve challenges.

Unsure how people will feel about the above, doesn't really seem like AoC is going in that direction with your gear.

Onto the point about bloat you are effectively saying you get all your power from levels, so pretty much whoever plays more is the one who is stronger until everyone hits max level. Though what I mean by bloat is if the game is going to add new challenges and since you don't get your power from gear but instead mastery or weird prestige systems.

So being a max level character with a new expansion comes out the game wants you get upgrade your which is not as straight forward as simply leveling. As an example you effectively have to do certain task to gain this kind of power to increase it, than there is another way they increase your power maybe a different kind of enhancement system to push your weapons even stronger with a different system tied to that, than they had prestige levels that give your class new abilities and you have to do different stuff for that.

My point being rather than this being a more slow thing to happen overtime you are effectively speeding up this process to add new powers to players in expansions and bloating up the game with all these additional things players have to do. And starting to alienate new potential player bases more and more. To the point being when you play the game you have to worry about 10 different progression systems.

That is what i mean by bloat, also people reference older makes mainly the DoAC, shadowbane, darkfall etc. Those games don't compare to the pve content of post WoW as they were more focused on PvP.

Growth will happen on a accelerated rate with a PvE game over a PvP focused mmorpg. And AoC plans to have good PvE content so there will be more growth on AoC compared to pvp focsued mmorpgs.

The thing is anyway is no one is really getting craped on your power is still going to be the same at that point you aren't going to be suddenly weaker. But if you want to take on new challenges you will need new power for that and leveling is a easier way for them to accomplish leveling the playing field without resorting to only relying on adding new mechanics.

Also I don't think AoC is going to angle of gear doesn't provide power, gear and levels will both be important and honestly i prefer that because it makes me feel like I'm playing a mmorpg. Both of course need to be balanced knowing there is pvp in this game that is quite important.

My parser labels this post 88% Strawman Argument, for those who don't feel like reading through it.

If you want to challenge the points feel free to rather than trying to use a broad term, if you are here trying to push gear / level is not where you gain power. Doesn't add anything relevant to the disccusion. Please speak with your own words.

I want character progression, not gear progression as primary

Literally the entire point of going 'This is a Strawman' is to inform people that there are no worthwhile points in the post to challenge, and that you are the one who didn't add anything relevant to the discussion. So... um... no?

If it concerns you, make your posts better, I've told you (and you've experienced) why I post like this. So in response I ask you:

Please ignore such posts, the people they are for, hate engaging with you anyway, I'm saving you time.

Kilion

I guess one of the things we should keep in mind that Intrepid has a different approach to expansions than WoW and GW. Here Steven indicates that content expansion may happen much more regularly (quaterly or 2 times a year), rather than in big chunks every two years, which could mean that for Ashes different progression systems are feasible than in other games, but it also requires these systems to work with just small added progression and be expandable in smaller steps as well.

IMO new progression systems do best when they make older players feel that their prior efforts are still of value, while new players are not overloaded by the number of systems and feel that the systems that exist are organically working together

I gave two examples in earlier comments but let me add another one here for a vertical progression system based on the assumption that it needs to be more general and expanded with every expansion Intrepid adds later:

Essence Attunement
With every adventure the cahracter goes on, with every challenge they overcome the are using the Essence to help them adapt to the new hurdle that they need to overcome. As such, our knowledge of the Essence and attunment with it would increse us as well.

What do we need to do? > Reach a specific point in a regions story.
What do we get? > An attunment point.
What does it do? > Allocate it to increase primary or secondary stats or grant artisanal bonuses - this could be done like it was on the sphere grid of Final Fantasy
Why would this be "better"? > new players have a comprehensive, slow and steady progression system that allows them to be almost at "maximum vertical progression" by the time they reach max level if they move through Verra during the levelling phase and max level players would have a reason to support and enact steady change in the world to acquire their attunment points (though the latter could be structured slightly different too e.g. starting off with a bunch of attunment points with only a few short to the maximum achievable)

With a new expansion it would be easily possible to expand the "sphere grid" and increase the cap on Attunement Points a character can have, without devaluing the benefits of previous Points.
And this might not even require a new separate "sphere grid" if Intrepid does not want something like it. This could just as much be achieved by applying the principle to the talent tree.

The point I am trying to make here: There are a lot of options out there for Intrepid to design vertical and horizontal progression systems that do not cause massive devaluation of prior efforts of players. And I hope that our brainstorming here helps them find a system that allows Intrepid to find the way that sits best with new and old players alike.

Spif

I'm very against increasing the level cap, or really any change that invalidates all gear you have worked towards. There are plenty of things that can be added along the way to keep the game interesting for long term players without that:

New areas with different rules (pvp-on, no-pvp, harder PvE setup so group required, new node type(s), lots of options here). Possibly allow the server pick what rules the new zone operates under via story arc choices
New raid boss and gear
New gear sets or crafted stat combinations
New story arcs in new or old areas
New race
New class (this would be a big deal for balance)
New weapons/armor (spear, crossbow, etc)
New, and possibly limited time, cosmetics of gear/emotes/idle animations/abilities/etc
Node level 7...maybe only 1 per server?

But if you want to bring back players that have left, you need to batch up a bunch of these things into a release and hype it. Then you also may want to add some stuff that makes it easier to come back (without pay-to-win or pay-to-advance):

1-time free server transfer (some limitations should apply)
Kinda blanking on other things that would bring people back without P2W

Given that there is no base game to buy, just a subscription, I don't expect that "expansions" will have a cost either.

Smaashley

I think it's a bad thing to add more levels in expansions mostly because it creates a gap between old and new players and it extends the time for new players to get equal to old players and therefore, discourage them because it's gonna be a long journey. We want constantly new players coming to the game for the economy to run correctly.

The idea of expansion should just be adding more variety of content. Adding levels is easy and a lazy way of getting more thing to do in game.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

And no mater how you want to mask it up, that is still the exact same result. Your current gear is useless so you need to get other pieces / upgrades / etc to be relevant. So it becomes the exact same thing as releveling up where your current gear is useless and you don't even realize it.

The only way this makes sense is if you start advocating for a completely different progression system in a mmorpg not based on not based on gear. Unless you bring points in relationship AoC shouldn't have gearing as a means for increased power this point isn't going to stand.

Long story short to sum it up, you are asking for increased bloat of the game with multiple progression adventuring level systems to create bloat and still leading to the same result of leveling but creating a worse experience for new players..

Gear not being the primary means of progression is one of the main benefits of those alternate progression systems. That's the whole point and a good thing IMO. I want character progression, not gear progression as primary. The character should get not stronger, not their tools. Just increasing character levels like we've seen in many games is a crappy way to do that for the reasons already mentioned.

So no, it's not bloat for the same result. At all. It's just a different system of progression that provides for a superior gameplay, IMO, without all the major downsides to old content.

It really is not superior gameplay I already listed off a bunch of points. But we can focus on certain elements so the conversation doesn't get convoluted.

So with you being more clear you are saying you do not want gear nor level progression. So for that to be the case that means different rarities of gear should not really be a thing else gear has an influence. That means your basic sword your using should be the same from lvl 1-50 or not generally have a large impact on your raw power / defense gameplay. That goes for armor and jewelry as well (doesn't mean you can't have different builds).

So pretty much gear level 1-50 works the same with the same power and builds between items not creating large varying differences in reducing your ability to complete pve challenges.

Unsure how people will feel about the above, doesn't really seem like AoC is going in that direction with your gear.

Onto the point about bloat you are effectively saying you get all your power from levels, so pretty much whoever plays more is the one who is stronger until everyone hits max level. Though what I mean by bloat is if the game is going to add new challenges and since you don't get your power from gear but instead mastery or weird prestige systems.

So being a max level character with a new expansion comes out the game wants you get upgrade your which is not as straight forward as simply leveling. As an example you effectively have to do certain task to gain this kind of power to increase it, than there is another way they increase your power maybe a different kind of enhancement system to push your weapons even stronger with a different system tied to that, than they had prestige levels that give your class new abilities and you have to do different stuff for that.

My point being rather than this being a more slow thing to happen overtime you are effectively speeding up this process to add new powers to players in expansions and bloating up the game with all these additional things players have to do. And starting to alienate new potential player bases more and more. To the point being when you play the game you have to worry about 10 different progression systems.

That is what i mean by bloat, also people reference older makes mainly the DoAC, shadowbane, darkfall etc. Those games don't compare to the pve content of post WoW as they were more focused on PvP.

Growth will happen on a accelerated rate with a PvE game over a PvP focused mmorpg. And AoC plans to have good PvE content so there will be more growth on AoC compared to pvp focsued mmorpgs.

The thing is anyway is no one is really getting craped on your power is still going to be the same at that point you aren't going to be suddenly weaker. But if you want to take on new challenges you will need new power for that and leveling is a easier way for them to accomplish leveling the playing field without resorting to only relying on adding new mechanics.

Also I don't think AoC is going to angle of gear doesn't provide power, gear and levels will both be important and honestly i prefer that because it makes me feel like I'm playing a mmorpg. Both of course need to be balanced knowing there is pvp in this game that is quite important.

My parser labels this post 88% Strawman Argument, for those who don't feel like reading through it.

If you want to challenge the points feel free to rather than trying to use a broad term, if you are here trying to push gear / level is not where you gain power. Doesn't add anything relevant to the disccusion. Please speak with your own words.

I want character progression, not gear progression as primary

Literally the entire point of going 'This is a Strawman' is to inform people that there are no worthwhile points in the post to challenge, and that you are the one who didn't add anything relevant to the discussion. So... um... no?

If it concerns you, make your posts better, I've told you (and you've experienced) why I post like this. So in response I ask you:

Please ignore such posts, the people they are for, hate engaging with you anyway, I'm saving you time.

Your most are not even relevant to the discussion stop trying to use strawman when my post is explaining my reasoning for saying bloat.

Instead of adding anything relevant you are trying to throw something into a category to try too discredit than have an actual conversation. Ya your hate is clear as day by making a terrible take and trying to throw underhanded insults instead of just ignoring something. You have to throw your negative 2 cents in because you don't like someone, definitely not neutral that was clearly a lie for you to say what is convenient for you.

Noaani

ILLPeonU wrote: »

It’s one thing to make people get new and improved gear from new recipes found in the world, it’s another to tell a player, guess what you’re not max level anymore, go grind 10 more levels AND get new gear. It’s a mechanic that made many leave games like WoW making their time devalued.

Actually, if you look at WoW's population curve (or, more specifically, their stated earnings via earning calls), the population grew with each expansion, not declined.

People came back to WoW to level up again, to run the content that they could run at the new level cap. They would then leave the game again when they had run all the content they were capable of running - only to come back with the next expansion to do it all over again.

I'm not using WoW as an example of something that Intrepid should or should not do here - I am simply pointing out bullshit, as I always point bullshit out when I see it.

Solid_Sneak

I think ESO done the BEST leveling system in any MMO I ever played. No level cap increase, just more horizontal progression. Instead of "Adventuring Levels" and "Gearscore" they got the Champion Points system, which is account-wide and grants a selection of capstone "talents" that you can use across all characters. It also makes alts a whole lot easier to get into since you got power from your previous characters on them, while also helping you gain "progression" on the Champion Point system by playing any character on your account.

Remember, people left WoW not cause of the half-baked storylines they copied from comic books, but because of the full wipe of player gearing every two years, cause people felt they wasted their time on that hamster wheel.

I hope Steven sees that and knows that you cannot have "reasonable damage numbers" and ever-expanding level caps. WoW had 4 number-squishes for the damage numbers, cause if they didn't people would be crashing their PCs with how large the numbers got. That's what 20 years of "level cap increase" does.

Apok

Nerror wrote: »

FFXI was one I never played. How did they make the old content relevant? Was it like attunement stuff like Killion's examples? Or did it give skills or something?

More stats to make gear out of plus plenty of gear slots to cover, each expansion dropped a really good must have item but took a lot of work to get and you had to choose which one you wanted and they were limited to a specific gear slot.

The best items that were the hardest to get were items like Relic weapons, these would take hundreds of hours of grinding a certain raid (dynamis) to obtain the currency for a completed one and it was a huge money sink as well. I took roughly 2 years for a player to obtain a relic back in the day. With each expansion came new content and a new type of relic system that didn't really replace the old system and was harder to get.

In the end you ended up with Relics, Empyrean, Mythic, Aeonic. but even when Mythics came out, people still hunted relics. relics came out in like 2005 and still to this day people still go for the Relic horn and shield

Game would also hook you up with a set of gear when you hit 60, but gear sets cover the basics like feet,legs,hands,body, and head. these did upgrade to 75 but just cause they were a 75 piece of gear for a specific job didn't mean that it was BiS

for example, playing Bard, I would only spend the currency you get from doing sea on the gloves and save my currency for other things.

usually when you have your full set of gear you want, everything you have on you all came from different areas of the game.

itwashear

I fully agree with this post in my eyes the best way to run a MMO is to have a system at the start to gain power so you feel attached to your character (lvls, unlocking skills, or even story based) then stop at the point the game designed to be balanced at followed by fully horizontal progress.

it really boils down to 2 ways of making an MMO.
1) ever increasing cap (WoW): the issue with this is there is nothing to do in Warcraft there's 20 years of patches and yet nothing to do why? because every cap increases makes the old content useless it works in FF14 because its more of a story your going though but its not a good way to develop an open world.
2)horizontal progression (GW1): while not a true MMO the progression is great it doesn't take super long to get to lvl 20(max) and new areas are just harder there an entire expansion for lvl 20's but it still feels good to back to an do stuff that came out with the launch of the game. another good example is runescape 99 in a skill is still the max 20 years later and yet look how popular the game still is.

TLDR give players more ways to play and more things to do lvl cap increases does the exact opposite.

Child Item