How do you feel about the augment system reveal from the fighter stream?

Steven mentioned the augment system, and said that the skill tree with the skill specs is foundational for the augment system.

At around 18:44 in the 4K fighter video on Youtube, he starts talking about augments, and tells us that augments are essentially skill specs than can alter the skills a bit more radically than regular skill specs. He mentions one of the Whirlwind skill specs as an example of what an augment could be. I hope augments are a bit more impactful than that specific skill spec though.

From the wiki:

Augments can affect a multitude of things and can (in some cases) create entirely new skills.
Drastically change the ability itself.

Change the damage type and value.

Change the cooldown period.

Change the distance (of the skill).

Change the effect from a ranged to melee ability.

An example I think is closer to what I hope augments are is the Maim ability, with the skill spec called Slicing Maim. Check from 12:26 in the 4K video on Youtube. Slicing Maim adds a lot of range to the skill.

Another example is the Reinvigorating Exert skill spec, that reduces cooldowns by 1% for each point of combat momentum the fighter has upon activation.

In the past we've heard about fighter/mage applying a teleportation school augment to their gap closer. In this case I expect Blitz to be have an augment/skill spec to become a teleport instead of the Fighter flying through the air. It might help attack up ledges, and get past blocking tanks and such, where collision detection would otherwise stop the Blitz halfway to the enemy backline.

Overall it makes a lot of sense to me that this is how augments will be implemented, which is as powerful skill specs in the tree. Not necessarily in the same window. It could be a separate one for augments. What do you guys think? Does it line up with what you thought? Did you imagine something very different?

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Comments

Ludullu

As Azherae's group pointed out in the feedback thread - balancing fighter and all the other archetypes will already be hell. If augments can truly change abilities to that extent - that hell will be even hotter.

If Intrepid believe they can at least successfully pretend that there's some form of balance in the game (even if it's purely 8v8 stuff), while having those kinds of augments - great, all the power to them.

But until I see real augments on at least 2-3 archetypes - I won't believe that the entire system will be as extensive as the maim sidegrade seems to imply.

Shabooey

I think having it as more of a skill spec / skill change makes sense to me. I was concerned with how they were going to balance the idea of 64 classes, so this way seems much easier to tune as needed.

I think it allows you to keep your primary class identity, which you originally chose, and give it your own spin based on your play style, which can be fun to do.

Garrtok

I like the complexity, but seriously they should implement some AI model for their development to have an overview about balancing, no man alive can keep track of this without technical help

Azherae

No concerns, total faith remains.

As a developer who knows how this can be done, I believe they can do what they say and what I expect, based on what I saw.

The only thing that changed for me (and not because of the comment, but rather, because of the showcase overall) is my expectations of the Augment trees themselves 'per Archetype'.

There were some things I would have expected to be limited, based on my prior list, that I no longer expect to be as limited, so if anything, I expect it to be even cooler now. Makes me wish the game's combat style suited me more.

I also don't have concerns about balance due to it. Augments are unlikely to be the part of balance where glaring heavy flaws appear.

Garrtok wrote: »

I like the complexity, but seriously they should implement some AI model for their development to have an overview about balancing, no man alive can keep track of this without technical help

I can't decide which meme goes here, 'I am no man' or 'You underestimate my power' so just imagine a mashup where Eowyn tries to kill Obi Wan, I guess.

Percimes

My general feeling about the augment system is that it will be theoretically great, but its diversity of options won't be used that much.

People like me will love it, but I fear many will only follow what's considered or perceived as to "best". Whether because it's thought as the strongest option, the easiest option to play, the more consistent, the most versatile, the optimal for x playstyle, ... That's all fine, so long as those who chose to thread a different path for their class are not ostracized for doing so.

Even if we're only talking about the weapon skill tree, not even involving the augments, how many will level multiple weapons trees so they can switch for the most synergizing procs depending with whom they're grouping with?

As for balance, I'm more concerned about poor options, those with so specialized or situational uses that they shouldn't be picked by anyone.

Vyril

Expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed.

I'm looking forward to their first true reveal of augments.

tautau

I love the complexity and I look forward to exploring it.

As @Percimes mentioned above, it is likely that most people will just use a few of the possible combinations because someone said that it was 'the best.'

I think that expert players (which is more defined by 'mental ability' than by 'time spent in game') will come up with some pretty useful ideas which they will then keep secret.

I will also predict that a lot of the people who call the system "unbalanced" will not be the experts and will not have explored it to any real depth.

JustVine

Predecessor and PoE have really wild systems almost exactly as simple and complex as what IS has described for Ashes augments. Malady my beloved

. I have seen enough code back end for similar concepts to know that it is possible. I believe Omeda when they tell me they can do and balance such things and I believe MY game dev when they tell me when they can deliver on MY complex vision, so why not Intrepid?

koltovince

The way I am imagining augments is that they will change aspects of key spells to make them rely more on features of other classes. For example a rogue subclass will grant a fighter the option for shorter cooldowns on burst spells or temporary stealth at the end of an ability.

Another example is both ranger and fighter have forms that can be considered tanky, hunt of the bear and form of fluidity. I can see a skill tree with these two stances for the tank turning up the mitigation of these stances and increasing aggro generation while they are active. Nothing will really change that much in the grand scheme of things, but the fighter would now have the capability of tanking with several abilities offering skill trees to allow it.

Spif

I see augments allowing a variety of "crazy" things. For example, the ability that allowed the fighter to heal/mana off the damage he does for 6 seconds is the kind of thing I'd expect out of a Cleric augment. Now I'd guess the Cleric augment for that ability might allow it to heal the party (long cooldown)

But soo many questions about augment implementation.

How many augment options will each skill have? Sometimes none? Always one? Always three (that sounds impossible, to make 24 augment option for every ability)? It would be nice for some skills to have tradeoffs in augments. IE, with a mage secondary, you can pick a fire augment (DPS/burning) or a frost (frozen stack/snare) augment for a specific attack. It feels like less of a tradeoff if you can just get frost for one attack in a chain and fire for a different attack.

Will augments cost a skill point or be a freebie? That's a big difference right there, as now you're putting another SP into one ability for the augment, and less into another ability.

willsummon

NiKr wrote: »

As Azherae's group pointed out in the feedback thread - balancing fighter and all the other archetypes will already be hell. If augments can truly change abilities to that extent - that hell will be even hotter.

Though, it will be fun to see how Intrepid handles do so.

There are so many possibilities for fun game play.

At first I thought the Fighter was going to be a pure melee dps archetype. The recent Showcase showed that a better comparison would be from Cities of Heroes, with the Fighter being like the Brute, to the Tank's Tanker.

Azherae

Spif wrote: »

Will augments cost a skill point or be a freebie? That's a big difference right there, as now you're putting another SP into one ability for the augment, and less into another ability.

We actually know really explicitly now, that Augments don't cost skill points.

It would have to be changed again and they'd probably announce it or something.

Voeltz

In theory it sounds awesome to be able to augment a single ability 4 different ways on 8 secondary archetypes, but it will be very challenging to balance. More than likely a select few options will become seen as the best in slot and people will just use those. You see that very often with MOBAs where there are even less choices, specific builds or spell selections are widely used compared to others. I struggle to come up with 32 variants of a single one of those abilities. I suppose the best and easiest way to go about it would be creating a theme for each secondary archetype's augments like the old example given for mage (fire, ice, lightning, arcane). Each augment gives a set of somewhat predictable benefits that matches the theme, fire applies burning/AOE, ice slows/freezes, arcane gives teleportation properties. Fighter augments could be split into AOE, single target, Crowd control, survivability benefits. Maybe adding fighter as a secondary to a ranged archetype like Mage or Ranger steers your class into a hybrid role that has more aggressive tendencies, allowing you to dash in and out of combat utilizing both ranged and melee weapons.

George_Black

Connecting archetype skill specs with the class system in this live, left me with a bad impression on a system that I already dont believe is achievable.

If that's what the class system is all about forget about necromancers, blade dancers and what not. Too early to tell but I just cant see it happening, unless the animations change drastically.
Adding a red blaster at the end of one ability and an upwards cut on another isnt enough to justify the 64 combos.

Also, good luck using a bow on a Fighter.
We need 15-20 solid classes with a few weapon options to satisfy a large variety of gameplays and offer a class identity.
We dont need the 64 classes.
I am fine with playing the fighter as is if things remain the same.

Krisco

I'm really excited to play a game that doesn't make me choose between Prot/Ret/Holy. I like to have abilities from all of the trees, depending on how I jive with that specific class. Even having slight flavours of skills is going to be so much better than following a cookie-cutter build environment like every game I've played since the early days of WoW. Games will pretend to give you options but most have a very clear winner or they'll have 3 options. If I want some self-healing, CC res and damage output... I'd like to be able to do that. It's harder to balance but back when games were fun, balance wasn't the deciding factor.... Rock, paper, scissors absolutely works.

BDO is a prime example of balance and how unachievable it is anyway. Every class is the same with different button configurations... CC, AoE, SA, FG, iFrame. They give each class the same toolkit and it doesn't feel great. I think a large part of the issue with imbalance is likely the server tick rates and the fact that everyone is playing on a wide range of ping rates... so that speed of combat just doesn't jive. I won't go into too much detail as I'm sure not everyone has tons of endgame pvp experience in BDO but the new showcase for fighter has sure given me a good feeling for Ashes PvP future. People think they want BDO combat but it doesn't feel good, unless you're next door to the server. (You likely won't notice until you're 1000 hours into PvP but when you do get to that point, it's hard to stick around after you realize what's happening)

daveywavey

Azherae wrote: »

I can't decide which meme goes here, 'I am no man' or 'You underestimate my power' so just imagine a mashup where Eowyn tries to kill Obi Wan, I guess.

Please someone make this "You underestimate my being no man" meme.

RazThemun

I am going in with the mindset classes will not be balanced.... or not on a 1v1 scenerio but only moreso in large group play. When you add levels of complexity it makes it harder to make things balanced. I just hope they have fun classes that people can enjoy the game and look back with fond memories.

Depraved

JustVine wrote: »

Predecessor and PoE have really wild systems almost exactly as simple and complex as what IS has described for Ashes augments. Malady my beloved . I have seen enough code back end for similar concepts to know that it is possible. I believe Omeda when they tell me they can do and balance such things and I believe MY game dev when they tell me when they can deliver on MY complex vision, so why not Intrepid?

I just played predecessor today for the first time X_X

edit: who is a good jungler to learn the game? ;3

Depraved

accidental double post T_T

nanfoodle

64 class options with skills that can fully be changed. I love options. I really they balance things in a way that does not do the nerf bat first. Some games balance skills and classes mainly by a wack a mole concept. I hope it's more of a case where when applicable balance is also found by boosting other sepcs debuff and damage. I really looking forward to class building. I really like finding unique play styles.

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