Corruption system and getting "the jump" in wpvp

I'm wondering if the corruption system can accidentally punish getting "the jump" in wpvp in both 1v1 & group v group scenarios?

1v1:
Getting the jump / using environmental advantages is a big, and valid, part of wpvp.
Might people (getting jumped) decide they're already at such a disadvantage in the fight anyway, that they'll not bother fighting back and basically dare the attacker to take corruption penalties? This could be despite the victim being a willing and active pvper.
The attacker may then stop to avoid corruption, giving the victim the opportunity to heal up, buff up, and attack his attacker.
To me this would feel a bit broken and like the system is getting in the way.

Group v group:
Another related scenario is the example from the recent caravan showcase, where a group waited to ambush and started by focusing one enemy (sensible strat). The attackers were able to focus one enemy and take him down quickly with the group's damage combined.
My question here is, outside of a caravan scenario, would this cause the group to all incur corruption + extra 50% drop penalty for the victim, as there was no time to respond?
Again here we're assuming the context is two groups of willing & active pvpers, perhaps fighting to control a resource.

I want to add here, that the corruption system overall seems a v clever attempt at solving the pvp problem for everyone. We want to minimise griefing particularly for non-pvpers, while also giving the world that element of danger and encouraging fair open world pvp for those who wish to participate (me!).

I should also clarify that, in the context of wpvp, "fair" to me is mostly about a) level and b) general appetite for pvp. Mostly level though.
Gaining the advantage via situation / environment is (imo) totally valid in a wpvp setting.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Song_Warden wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Attacks on greens are far less likely when in a group xD

Aszkalon wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Ow pvp is not going to be fair...

And hopefully Node-Sieges as well. Nodes are in the Open World, after all ... ...

Search for Allies, Mag7. Search for Allies or die hopelessly in an Assault and become a Vassal.

Mag7spy wrote: »

What is your solution that does not involve giving more people to the person attempting to pk and making it easier for them?

Isn't Corruption already a nice Deterrent ?
You can lose not just Stuff from your Pockets but also your GEAR when You die as a corrupted Player.

Playerkillers will have to be careful.

I can imagine the fewest of them actually being bold enough to move around alone while they murder other Players and get corrupted for Minutes of Minutes to come. >;-]

You are missing the point with what I'm saying, players will do whatever they can to win in most cases. Meaning any advantage they can use in a fight they will use good or bad.

Which means Ow pvp is low because of the consequences but sieges are high because of the consequences. It doesn't mean its a green flag to make it easy for people to do whatever they can or the most scummy things to win every fight or destroy economies.

I don't see that many people pking in AoC so long as there is a good amount of population and people again content pushing people to play in groups. I don't think a dps is going to want to stack up on 3 corruption kills like that as a constant thing.

You underestimate the fuel some gankers have. Gankers also work in groups and nothing is better or adds more kudos than wiping another group. Especially if you wipe a group without casualties. As corruption doesn't degrade your pve effectiveness then its a no brainer that groups will quite happily wipe another group to take a grind spot and some will wipe groups just for fun.

I think u are underestimating the effect of corruption if you think people are going to roll in groups and kill people. Effectively your corruption build up is going to immensely increase since you are now killing groups of people. Meaning you will be more of a target for people for a longer period of time and every time you kill someone again you are gaining more corruption.

On top of that every time you kill a person you gain more corruption per kill, meaning if you have killed 10 people over your accounts life time you are gaining more corruption per kill than your first kill as it builds up.

Since it is the killers that are corrupted everyone else can attack them for free without turning purple meaning if there are like 30 people around the area seeing them there is a good chance someone is going to attack them to hope they drop their gear.

People that have not experienced these systems are severely underestimating the effect of being a big red flag with a ton of other people around. You are effectively potential loot everyone will want to take.

I don't think you've played on a pvp server before if you think its any different to be red. Gankers names get called out on global and you get hunted constantly until you log off - there is no arbitrary function that prevents further hunting/retribution when you turn green again. The system is a fallacy and makes people like you believe something which is not the case.

You not talking about any factual information while I'm basing my onw information off playing games where you can free attack people with different rule sets.

Having experience playing different pvp in different mmorpgs I can clearly see the different responses of players, while you don't actually reference any element of pvp mmorpgs in your comment you just say what you think while not backing it off how things work in game or past expereinces with mmorpgs as examples.

If you had experience in these mmorpgs you would clearly see the differences between a game like Shadowbane for example with 0 rule sets and full loot drop compared to BDO with a buffer system before you turn red and seeing the difference of pvp between bot those games.

The way you are talking like "Play on a pvp server" Further pushers my point about you having a lack of experience with these types of things. Because PvP servers generally do not have rule sets to control PvP or very limited. IE Shadowbane being a full pvp game, compared to BDO that doesn't work off "PvP server" (though they added a pvp shard where u can see the difference between the base game).

PvP server is added on generally though the game was designed overall as a PvE game IE WoW, Rift, Swtor and don't really have rules against pvp besides not killing your own faction. Games designed to intended PvP on the game like BDO do not have PvE or PvP servers. But there is a rule set to keep people in check from killing everyone and making sure it is not a form around a player being red (Ie u can view it as corrupted). The rule sets you can see directly influence how often and willing someone is to PvP or take other ways around going red in the situation because of that limit.

This is what i mean when people say things but don't actually understand these elements of pvp like your comment and use any kind of game comparison

Unsure why you are bringing up the point of saying you call out a gankers name and them getting hunted. Technically that works in the point I'm trying to say in people won't just go corrupted like you are trying to suggest. Though im unsure if that is actually going to be a reality since its not really common around pvp type mmorpgs (Not your Pve ones with a added pvp server where you calling out calls out your own faction.)

Songcaller

What are you talking about? I've been ganked in BDO plenty of times lol. I've also played pvp servers in 23 MMOs. People went red all the time in l2. People will go red all the time in Ashes too. I don't think you understand human behaviour.

I'm telling you how gankers I know operate and their plans for release. Gankers love to gank. It's not about loot per say and its not even about death penalties. Its about power. You're a prime target because you are gullible and will expect a group to protect you by default.

Furthermore, it's not expected that a whole group won't fight back. Its debatable if corruption would even happen because you lure the targets into a false sense of security and then wipe the floor with the targets. It's the same in any game with pvp.

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

What are you talking about? I've been ganked in BDO plenty of times lol. I've also played pvp servers in 23 MMOs. People went red all the time in l2. People will go red all the time in Ashes too. I don't think you understand human behaviour.

I'm telling you how gankers I know operate and their plans for release. Gankers love to gank. It's not about loot per say and its not even about death penalties. Its about power. You're a prime target because you are gullible and will expect a group to protect you by default.

Furthermore, it's not expected that a whole group won't fight back. Its debatable if corruption would even happen because you lure the targets into a false sense of security and then wipe the floor with the targets. It's the same in any game with pvp.

You aren't making a good point, im going to make this even more clear using BDO as an example since you must have played it somewhat. What is the % of times roughly you were ganked by a red player (negative karma) in BDO compared to being ganked by a non red player.

(I'm really not talking about players that fight back I'm talking about people willing to go corrupted and stack a ton of kills that build corruption based on lifetime of account. While you say people have no regard for life time increases on accounts with the sever penalties.)

I know how people willing to flag up and kill people are quite well actually because I'm one of those people. But im not going to go red with 20 people around me because of the punishments. Even if I wanted to i have to taken into account every time i kill someone it takes longer to grind off corruption meaning if i feel like killing someone for no reason that has a permanent cost.

When you talk about pvp servers that is akin to rift, swtor, wow there is no draw back to massacring everyone.

Songcaller

I'm not sure how you conflate killing a group of people to having no regard for a lifetime tracker. How will you know twenty people are around you? BDO is a bad example because you stack karma for kills and head into the desert where you lost nothing in pvp death even if red. In the desert you just farmed xp and gems off the monsters there, no item degradation and turn the karma back to positive. I see no reason why those same principles don't apply in Ashes. If a grind spot is contested you can bet you'll have a fight on your hands. You seem to believe the corruption system will stop any conflict and I'm telling you the corruption system won't. Hell, even the corruption will be worked off in a grind spot or prime location after conflict for the spot.

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

I'm not sure how you conflate killing a group of people to having no regard for a lifetime tracker. How will you know twenty people are around you? BDO is a bad example because you stack karma for kills and head into the desert where you lost nothing in pvp death even if red. In the desert you just farmed xp and gems off the monsters there, no item degradation and turn the karma back to positive. I see no reason why those same principles don't apply in Ashes. If a grind spot is contested you can bet you'll have a fight on your hands. You seem to believe the corruption system will stop any conflict and I'm telling you the corruption system won't. Hell, even the corruption will be worked off in a grind spot or prime location after conflict for the spot.

Im unsure how much you played BDO but you are giving me a lower level answer saying "you just go in the desert" when that is the one place everyone generally respects and ask "duel for spot" and choose not even go for a single pk with karma. Because the moment u die you go to jail and end up wasting time running back and forth constantly.

Your your point feels pretty weak in how im viewing your experience with the amount you played bdo since this is like basic 101 stuff tot he point you are getting the principles wrong.

Ill wait to here your comment on this aspect since it will make proving my point even easier.

Mag7spy

Even with a quick search its easy to find people complaining with what im talking about

Songcaller

Lmao. I can see we are two different breeds. You can leave jail pretty rapidly by jumping through jail without stamina use without loss of anything and end up in muiquan. In fact, if you start in Valencia you only have to suffer 30 minutes of the Villain Mark and should be able to grind back to positive karma in said 30 minutes.

However, if you have ganked low gear scored players a lot then 30 minutes isn't enough time. Your best bet was to gain 100,000 positive karma before starting your murder spree. Anyway, you certainly don't join the duelists as negative karma. If you die with negative karma in the desert you will have to return to jail and start the loop all over again.

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

Lmao. I can see we are two different breeds. You can leave jail pretty rapidly by jumping through jail without stamina use without loss of anything and end up in muiquan. In fact, if you start in Valencia you only have to suffer 30 minutes of the Villain Mark and should be able to grind back to positive karma in said 30 minutes.

However, if you have ganked low gear scored players a lot then 30 minutes isn't enough time. Your best bet was to gain 100,000 positive karma before starting your murder spree. Anyway, you certainly don't join the duelists as negative karma. If you die with negative karma in the desert you will have to return to jail and start the loop all over again.

Getting sent to jail over and over is a pretty big deal, means you won't be making a whole lot of money. Exactly why in my other points about people asking duel for spot and waiting for secs to avoid even a single pk kill.

Next the fact you say people will go to the desert (which isn't really true people grind where they make money not because of karma) already shows an impact of being in negative karma having an effect. Which again can be related to corruption, though corruption effect is much stronger than being red in BDO. Stronger severity = less people will to risk dealing with it or as frequently.

The point you are making leans towards what I have been saying in you are not going to see tons of red people everywhere. Even by chance population on the game isn't thick enough to see people all around you, they also have a BH system as well to track players bringing people towards them.

If you are stacking tons of karma before killing people that agaaaain leads to giving more weight to my point on people trying to avoid being in negative karma (aka corrupt). Again I feel you are not understanding the weight corruption will have and how that is not something people are going to be doing actively.

This is why i asked you how often red players have killed you on BDO, because i know for a fact that was not common in the slightest. Either people feed you to mobs, stop pking to get karma back or end up leaving over becoming red. I played BDO for too many years to see the patterns and sat in the worse kinds of peoples rotations so i am well aware of the limits having pressed all the buttons on people. As my goal was to get them to go red and feed them to mobs (which ends up being only a rare case). Even after going red people don't stick around long to find out or one death to mobs makes them leave and not come back.

Now with a stronger system not needing to rely on pve but player kills able to drop their gear.....You can see where I'm going with this in how people are literally not going to want to be corrupt and dying to players.

Songcaller

You have ignored my actual points. The whole goal of a ganker is to gank. Not to make money. There are dedicated toons/accounts for ganking on. Its not something you do on your main because of the aforementioned name calling that happens, the lock out of raids that happens and the social pariah aspect that happens after constant kill sprees. The fact remains there will be a lot of red karma and those people will suffer the karma bombs like they do in BDO. I'm not even sure how we will make money in ashes because I'm not one for the lack of gold from mobs. The other aspect remains that there is no prison in Ashes, therefore, the punishment system is completely different and more akin to Lineage 2. When a group works together to gank then there is less chance the group will be killed at a grind spot unless another group arrives for the feat. Then the spiral is not prison but negative karma bombs. The main pull for going red is the fight with bounty hunters which will be an experience all alone.

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

You have ignored my actual points. The whole goal of a ganker is to gank. Not to make money. There are dedicated toons/accounts for ganking on. Its not something you do on your main because of the aforementioned name calling that happens, the lock out of raids that happens and the social pariah aspect that happens after constant kill sprees. The fact remains there will be a lot of red karma and those people will suffer the karma bombs like they do in BDO. I'm not even sure how we will make money in ashes because I'm not one for the lack of gold from mobs. The other aspect remains that there is no prison in Ashes, therefore, the punishment system is completely different and more akin to Lineage 2. When a group works together to gank then there is less chance the group will be killed at a grind spot unless another group arrives for the feat. Then the spiral is not prison but negative karma bombs. The main pull for going red is the fight with bounty hunters which will be an experience all alone.

The main point is people are not going to go corrupt to pk people do to the system in the majority of cases as this system is far stronger than any other game in terms of punishment. I used BDO as an example that shows a clear pattern and the fact people will stop pking when they are close to red or avoid it in the desert.

The group aspect is a two way street that again is in favor of less pking. A group orientated game means more people and more groups around different areas and rotations as they do content. That means if you are going to pk you have to risk getting multiple amounts of corruption for each player. This scales higher towards DPS since they will be the ones getting corruption, and per kill on your account gives more corruption additively. Of course not all them are just going to stand there and die but they can come back and now they have a clear red target they can attack without consequences or some other group comes along and kills the red player.

Its not going to be optimal to have red players and getting attacked for free and losing the whole point of grinding the dungeon to make money / xp.

If i wasn't the group that attacked and I'm rolling with my group and i see a red player we would 100% kill them and if the others flag we would kill them as well. By chance we get a gear drop bonus loot of us.

Songcaller

This is where we differ. The gankers are hitting low level groups, thus, wiping them quite easily. Otherwise, I foresee a group vs group fight where no one is red because everyone has flagged. There's two sides to the coin here and two completely different aims. The fact remains that world pvp is not halted by corruption but murder hobos are tamed by corruption. In my mind, if one group member has to turn red its fair game, if everyone has to turn red its time to look for another target. This goes double for raids and raid boss fights where someone has to instigate the combat.

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

This is where we differ. The gankers are hitting low level groups, thus, wiping them quite easily. Otherwise, I foresee a group vs group fight where no one is red because everyone has flagged. There's two sides to the coin here and two completely different aims. The fact remains that world pvp is not halted by corruption but murder hobos are tamed by corruption. In my mind, if one group member has to turn red its fair game, if everyone has to turn red its time to look for another target. This goes double for raids and raid boss fights where someone has to instigate the combat.

I'd rather not go towards that side of the argument atm, and not talking about targeting lower levels. Unless you are agree corruption will remove most kinds of pk around that element I'm talking about.

Songcaller

Its not going to prevent the killing of low levels at all. The problem is all the mobs are located in similar areas due to the node system and grind spots will be mixed areas as well as straight areas. Therefore, I feel the corruption is ripe to be gained. Furthermore, I still feel that a node war/guild war will see many gankers in their element because I don't think you go corrupted killing lower levels in a node war/guild war.

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

Its not going to prevent the killing of low levels at all. The problem is all the mobs are located in similar areas due to the node system and grind spots will be mixed areas as well as straight areas. Therefore, I feel the corruption is ripe to be gained. Furthermore, I still feel that a node war/guild war will see many gankers in their element because I don't think you go corrupted killing lower levels in a node war/guild war.

Can we focus on not talking about killing lower levels right now...I can talk about that after.

Songcaller

Well, you are talking about massive karma bombs. You only get massive karma bombs killing lower levels. Its quite manageable to go red slightly if you hit a same level toon/same geared toon. Steven used to say one or two kills wasn't a big deal. Therefore, I still believe group vs group will see an instigator. I also believe that a player will be less likely not to fight back if the player is in a group.

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

Well, you are talking about massive karma bombs. You only get massive karma bombs killing lower levels. Its quite manageable to go red slightly if you hit a same level toon/same geared toon. Steven used to say one or two kills wasn't a big deal. Therefore, I still believe group vs group will see an instigator. I also believe that a player will be less likely not to fight back if the player is in a group.

I'm not talking about massive karma bombing...

Songcaller

You were talking about lifetime karma stacking which will build slower killing one or two players a time. I really don't foresee an aspect where world pvp will boil down to corruption and anti corruption more times than not. I feel that the majority of players are pvp centric and therefore would fight rather than karma bomb. A ganker doesn't aim to kill greens, a ganker aims to kill groups/players. If the groups/players fight back all the better for achievement.

Mag7spy

Song_Warden wrote: »

You were talking about lifetime karma stacking which will build slower killing one or two players a time. I really don't foresee an aspect where world pvp will boil down to corruption and anti corruption more times than not. I feel that the majority of players are pvp centric and therefore would fight rather than karma bomb. A ganker doesn't aim to kill greens, a ganker aims to kill groups/players. If the groups/players fight back all the better for achievement.

The point about life time corruption means every time you are pking that is building up and making it much worse. If you are going from gaining 100 corruption to 700 per kill, and it starts to take a long time to work off people are most likely not going to risk pking a player knowing its going to continue to increase.

We are making an assumption there are going to be all types of players as well as all types of strategies. That doesn't mean everyone is going to simply just flag up. Though if for whatever reason everyone flags up all the time, than this isn't really a conversation about corruption anymore. So I'd be saying what is the point talking about corruption if you think everyone will flag up? (don't actually answer that).

Clearly we are talking about corruption and the instances where people don't fight back. From not wanting to, feeling like they don't have anything to lose, or wanting the player to go red.

Songcaller

Its difficult to quantify in truth. I need to test the corruption system in A2. I think a lot of players want to test the corruption system in A2. I'm not sure how long it takes to clear the karma or how long it takes to build the karma. I'm not sure of the karma thresholds or the percentage thresholds for losing gear. I'm also not sure how the dynamics will work because I'd aim to bait players to attack and then finish those players. Of course, if I meet my hard counter and I'm alone I would karma bomb if the challenge stack is indomitable in a hard counters favour.

abc0815

The decision tree starts with "i will attack that player over there" and not "oh my do i fight back". The idea that somebody rather takes a hit to XP and materials (assuming not max level) seems odd. Besides the gear drop panic is overblown. Only wear what you are willing to risk.

Child Item