Corruption system and getting "the jump" in wpvp

I'm wondering if the corruption system can accidentally punish getting "the jump" in wpvp in both 1v1 & group v group scenarios?

1v1:
Getting the jump / using environmental advantages is a big, and valid, part of wpvp.
Might people (getting jumped) decide they're already at such a disadvantage in the fight anyway, that they'll not bother fighting back and basically dare the attacker to take corruption penalties? This could be despite the victim being a willing and active pvper.
The attacker may then stop to avoid corruption, giving the victim the opportunity to heal up, buff up, and attack his attacker.
To me this would feel a bit broken and like the system is getting in the way.

Group v group:
Another related scenario is the example from the recent caravan showcase, where a group waited to ambush and started by focusing one enemy (sensible strat). The attackers were able to focus one enemy and take him down quickly with the group's damage combined.
My question here is, outside of a caravan scenario, would this cause the group to all incur corruption + extra 50% drop penalty for the victim, as there was no time to respond?
Again here we're assuming the context is two groups of willing & active pvpers, perhaps fighting to control a resource.

I want to add here, that the corruption system overall seems a v clever attempt at solving the pvp problem for everyone. We want to minimise griefing particularly for non-pvpers, while also giving the world that element of danger and encouraging fair open world pvp for those who wish to participate (me!).

I should also clarify that, in the context of wpvp, "fair" to me is mostly about a) level and b) general appetite for pvp. Mostly level though.
Gaining the advantage via situation / environment is (imo) totally valid in a wpvp setting.

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Azherae

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Yknow because the game is about conflict. Risk v reward, etc etc.

A useful note is probably that this is the fundamental difference between us and 'you' (or Steven).

We don't want to play a game 'about conflict'. We want to play 'a Fantasy game about Nodes which allows reasonable/meaningful conflict'.

All respect but we are on an Ashes forum right, the brainchild of Steven who has repeatedly declared conflict and risk v reward to be central to gameplay.
We're not necessarily discussing our personal hopes and dreams for MMOs generally.

Ashes is still a little unclear for some of us, you see.

Don't worry, we'll probably realize and leave eventually. It's just taking a long time.

Well for me too. The purpose of the thread was to discuss a v specific situation that is more relevant to PvPers, who are not so familiar with a flagging system.
And an incentive to pre-flag is a humble attempt to address that, without penalising the PvEers out there.

It'd be nice if people could recognise a genuine constructive attempt without it descending into the usual polarised tit-for-tat rubbish.

You're just imagining that.

Unless your original point was unclear. The question was 'what people would think of it'.

That's why I answered the way I did personally.

"If that was implemented, I wouldn't play."

Is this gonna make you assume I'm a PvE player again...?

blat

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Yknow because the game is about conflict. Risk v reward, etc etc.

A useful note is probably that this is the fundamental difference between us and 'you' (or Steven).

We don't want to play a game 'about conflict'. We want to play 'a Fantasy game about Nodes which allows reasonable/meaningful conflict'.

All respect but we are on an Ashes forum right, the brainchild of Steven who has repeatedly declared conflict and risk v reward to be central to gameplay.
We're not necessarily discussing our personal hopes and dreams for MMOs generally.

Ashes is still a little unclear for some of us, you see.

Don't worry, we'll probably realize and leave eventually. It's just taking a long time.

Well for me too. The purpose of the thread was to discuss a v specific situation that is more relevant to PvPers, who are not so familiar with a flagging system.
And an incentive to pre-flag is a humble attempt to address that, without penalising the PvEers out there.

It'd be nice if people could recognise a genuine constructive attempt without it descending into the usual polarised tit-for-tat rubbish.

You're just imagining that.

Unless your original point was unclear. The question was 'what people would think of it'.

That's why I answered the way I did personally.

"If that was implemented, I wouldn't play."

Is this gonna make you assume I'm a PvE player again...?

Ha well I'm not actually referring to you personally here!
Just the general mood of some of the responses in here.
Some great replies, but tend to get crowded out by PvE militants.

Personally I'm well up for trying to make PvX work for all, raised the thread to try to get my head around how these mechanics can be made to work for people like me, coming from always-on PvP environments.

Azherae

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Yknow because the game is about conflict. Risk v reward, etc etc.

A useful note is probably that this is the fundamental difference between us and 'you' (or Steven).

We don't want to play a game 'about conflict'. We want to play 'a Fantasy game about Nodes which allows reasonable/meaningful conflict'.

All respect but we are on an Ashes forum right, the brainchild of Steven who has repeatedly declared conflict and risk v reward to be central to gameplay.
We're not necessarily discussing our personal hopes and dreams for MMOs generally.

Ashes is still a little unclear for some of us, you see.

Don't worry, we'll probably realize and leave eventually. It's just taking a long time.

Well for me too. The purpose of the thread was to discuss a v specific situation that is more relevant to PvPers, who are not so familiar with a flagging system.
And an incentive to pre-flag is a humble attempt to address that, without penalising the PvEers out there.

It'd be nice if people could recognise a genuine constructive attempt without it descending into the usual polarised tit-for-tat rubbish.

You're just imagining that.

Unless your original point was unclear. The question was 'what people would think of it'.

That's why I answered the way I did personally.

"If that was implemented, I wouldn't play."

Is this gonna make you assume I'm a PvE player again...?

Ha well I'm not actually referring to you personally here!
Just the general mood of some of the responses in here.
Some great replies, but tend to get crowded out by PvE militants.

Personally I'm well up for trying to make PvX work for all, raised the thread to try to get my head around how these mechanics can be made to work for people like me, coming from always-on PvP environments.

There are no PvE militants on this forum anymore.

Not one.

You're imagining it. This is a common thing for players who come onto forums and are more invested into specific parts of PvP.

Not even by the most generous definition of 'militant' are there any 'left'.

blat

Azherae wrote: »

"If that was implemented, I wouldn't play."

I still can't get my head around this tbh.
As a previous poster pointed out, it'd depend entirely on the multiplier.
For argument's sake let's say it was merely 5%.
But you would of course need some kind of incentive to encourage any pre-flagging.

How this would negatively affect a PvEer, I don't get.
It's simply encouraging PvPers to pre-flag. If you don't fancy it, don't opt-in?
You would then be unflagged by default, which would offer some protections against non-consensual PvP via the corruption system.

And wouldn't lose out, as those people who've chosen to opt-in would lose far more exp via time lost in PvP (and direct exp loss via increased death rate).

So, given the enormous scope and appeal of the game. I can't get my head around how such a simple measure would warrant the knee-jerk "ok I'm not playing then" reaction.

Ludullu

Damn, Azherae summoned the entire crew

As for the toggle question - that's already in the game. Hit anyone around you (as long as they're not red or your direct ally) and you'll be flagged. Do that every 90s and you'll be permaflagged. No need for toggles or xp boosts or whatever else.

I personally dislike toggles for that exact reason. They always require some incentive or just have some implied extra mechanics with them. And considering that the current system already has enough extra mechanics that majority of people are not used to, I wouldn't want a whole toggle feature on top of that. And I definitely don't want toggles to replace the current system, if that was the implication of that discussion.

Azherae

blat wrote: »

So, given the enormous scope and appeal of the game. I can't get my head around how such a simple measure would warrant the knee-jerk "ok I'm not playing then" reaction.

There's your problem.

You see Ashes as having 'enormous scope and appeal'.

For me, August 27th is a Tuesday.

blat

NiKr wrote: »

And I definitely don't want toggles to replace the current system, if that was the implication of that discussion.

It was suggested in addition to the existing system.
No I didn't think a toggle would replace the corruption system.

I've said so many times now (in this thread) how I'm a fan of what they're attempting to do with this system, and am merely trying to iron out potential wrinkles for those of us more familiar with always-on PvP.

blat

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

So, given the enormous scope and appeal of the game. I can't get my head around how such a simple measure would warrant the knee-jerk "ok I'm not playing then" reaction.

There's your problem.

You see Ashes as having 'enormous scope and appeal'.

For me, August 27th is a Tuesday.

So my problem is assuming that posters on an Ashes of Creation forum might be interested in playing Ashes of Creation?

Yeah, my bad.

Azherae

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

So, given the enormous scope and appeal of the game. I can't get my head around how such a simple measure would warrant the knee-jerk "ok I'm not playing then" reaction.

There's your problem.

You see Ashes as having 'enormous scope and appeal'.

For me, August 27th is a Tuesday.

So my problem is assuming that posters on an Ashes of Creation forum might be interested in playing Ashes of Creation?

Yeah, my bad.

In a way, yes?

You should assume that posters on an Ashes of Creation forum might be interested in playing Ashes of Creation as it was explained to them at some point in the past.

Dygz has already given you a short history lesson, it's possible to ask for a longer one, I'm sure.

Anyways, I see this is my mistake, you asked a clear question so I called my group to answer, but in so doing, I might have given you the impression you just said.

In a way, it's a good reminder. Posting is, itself, an indicator of 'interest', and therefore this is my bad. Sorry about that.

Ludullu

Yeah, we've seen several changes or "clarifications" that have alienated one part of the preexisting fanbase or the other. I'm sure we'll see more and even more people will get filtered out. Ashes of Creation? More like... Ashes of Theseus.

blat

Alright well I think some of this is me being new to this forum! I've followed Ashes since fairly early on, but have only recently caved in to the hype enough to get involved here.

And yes my intention in this thread was to discuss a very specific question/issue (to some, not all!) with the existing corruption system.
This is despite generally being a fan of what that system is trying to achieve.

I think it is reasonable to assume that any other new posters will be expecting a forum full of people excited for the game, in it's current form.

Azherae

blat wrote: »

Alright well I think some of this is me being new to this forum! I've followed Ashes since fairly early on, but have only recently caved in to the hype enough to get involved here.

And yes my intention in this thread was to discuss a very specific question/issue (to some, not all!) with the existing corruption system.
This is despite generally being a fan of what that system is trying to achieve.

I think it is reasonable to assume that any other new posters will be expecting a forum full of people excited for the game, in it's current form.

Agreed, which is why I'm genuinely sorry for that, I jumped the gun because you asked a specific question and I figured we're so deep in this thread that you might not get a lot of answers, so I let everyone in my group know.

So for future reference, anyone who responded since that question other than Dygz or NiKr is 'in my group' and don't normally post, since they leave it to me. If you need them to answer a question about an idea you have, though, just lmk anytime.

Ludullu

blat wrote: »

I think it is reasonable to assume that any other new posters will be expecting a forum full of people excited for the game, in it's current form.

This is where you gotta play a game of "how does this poster "sound" in their comments, when did they register and what exactly are they saying". It's a really fun game.

Quite a lot of people here are the ones who could've (or have) been filtered out already, but have stayed on the forum for a multitude of reasons (time-sunk cost definitely one of them).

Some of us stay here in the hopes that the design will shift backwards, if even a little. Some hope that it'll shift even deeper into the current direction. Some stay to keep yelling at clouds that they don't want forced pvp, while others yell at the same clouds that they want ffa pvp.

In other words, expecting a forum to be super homogenized would be the first and main mistake of a new poster. Especially in this day and age, where access to internet info/media is as widespread as it is.

Maybe 20 years ago seeing a forum like this meant that everyone was on it because they went out of their way to find a group of people that were into the exact same thing as them. But now you usually see a range of buttheads butting heads, in hopes of being the "right ones" at the end. And a fair number of us buttheads have been at it for half a decade already. Some even longer.

abc0815

Expectation management is lacking or basically none existent. When i heard that Freeholds would be hard to get i never thought i would be a hard quest.On social media this got repeated to the point that it was believed. Nothing about quests is generally hard. What ever Intrepid Studios says 2 players will hear totally different things (and reinvent words/meaning).

Otr

blat wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I would never under any circumstances perma-flag for PvP combat.

Yeah thanks for clearing that up.
I'm obviously talking about PvPers having the option to perma flag and being incentivised to do so, via say a buff to exp gained

The reason to this is described in the OP as

"The attackers were able to focus one enemy and take him down quickly with the group's damage combined.
[...] there was no time to respond"

To me this is a valid scenario.
I wouldn't want to see a pre-flagging to help reduce material loss because becomes too similar to a PvP on/off and reduces risk.

blat

Otr wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I would never under any circumstances perma-flag for PvP combat.

Yeah thanks for clearing that up.
I'm obviously talking about PvPers having the option to perma flag and being incentivised to do so, via say a buff to exp gained

The reason to this is described in the OP as

"The attackers were able to focus one enemy and take him down quickly with the group's damage combined.
[...] there was no time to respond"

To me this is a valid scenario.
I wouldn't want to see a pre-flagging to help reduce material loss because becomes too similar to a PvP on/off and reduces risk.

Hm I disagree.
I agree it is a valid wpvp scenario. But I don't think corruption is intended to punish that type of scenario. The system exists as a deterrent, and I don't think that's the type of scenario we want to deter.

becomes too similar to a PvP on/off and reduces risk.

It increases risk, on the whole.
If you opted-in to pre-flag for PvP, you're basically saying: "I'm game to be attacked". You might be out collecting herbs and someone is v likely to go for you.

So of course it increases risk. The whole point of corruption penalties for killing non-combatants is to deter.
Which means non-combatant = less likely to be attacked (AKA less risky)
Combatant = more likely to be attacked (AKA more risky)

The scenario I described in this thread is one v specific case where it seems to me that the corruption system is overreaching a little, punishing something it isn't designed to punish.

abc0815

Pre flag? Who ever mentioned flagging (what ever stream or the like) made a mistake. The system flags you. That is it. But now you want to "pre flag" ? Again everybody is open to attacks all the time. Some areas carry a tiny penalty. But lets make it way more complicated then needed.

blat

Otr wrote: »

I wouldn't want to see a pre-flagging to help reduce material loss because becomes too similar to a PvP on/off and reduces risk.

I should clarify here; the intention behind the suggestion of the opt-in pre-flag (of some kind) wasn't so much to reduce material cost, although that is part of it, but to avoid corruption for the attacker amongst active pvpers.

Do we agree the purpose of corruption is to disincentivise non-consensual PvP?
Which could be reframed as "those who don't want an open PvP environment".

blat

abc0815 wrote: »

Pre flag? Who ever mentioned flagging (what ever stream or the like) made a mistake. The system flags you. That is it. But now you want to "pre flag" ? Again everybody is open to attacks all the time. Some areas carry a tiny penalty. But lets make it way more complicated then needed.

Yeah this is an 8 page discussion, but to catch you up there was a speculative problem posted, some discussion around who it affects and then some suggestions for how to improve the system.

Depraved

the perma flag option is highly abusable. i can see that everyone will turn it off forever at some point xD
just flag and kill like a normal person ;3

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