Players should go all out with griefing in the alpha 2

I still think that anti-griefing systems are too optimistic. Here is my own hypothesis that I have based on PVP and PVX games I have played;

I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system and grind out their corruption during low pop hours.
I think that open world bosses will be to easy to grief.
I think the corruption debuff is will be easy to mitigate with a group of players targeting solo or duo players.

I'm not anti PVP, but there is a difference between what is intended and a never ending gankfest.
I think that during the alpha 2 players should try to exploit these systems to draw attention to any of these or other problems that might come up.
Best case scenario is I'm full of shit and everything is fine, second best is intrepid finds a problem and fixes it.
But I think we would all hate to see this game launch in a 24/7 Escape from Tarkov state when all you want to do is get a quest done.
PVP should have purpose but I think players have a tendency to make it purposeless. I see player, I kill player.

Food for thought.

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Dripyula

I know only one thing about corruption and that is... that I find it stupid that it - for some magical reason - does not exist during caravane attacks. Why?
What changes? xD

In case the caravane people do not fight back against attackers and are all slaughtered on the spot, why would the attackers not get corrupted?
Because now "the Gods are watching and find this time it is excusable" or something? ^_^

Once again I feel though as if talking about all of this is way too early.
What the Intrepit team aspires, I wonder what it is.
To me it sounds like they want a dangerous world, also dangerous because of the possible openworld PvP.
But then again, not really?
Since skilled openworld-PvP'ers get corrupted quickly, get debuffed just by corruption itself and they also risk to lose actual gearslot items they might not even find a quick or cheap replacement for.

And when it comes to ganking I would just make it so that players who are either in the same group or guild as an active playerkiller get his own corruptionvalue rated upon themself too... but only in an inactive state, just for being nearby.
Upon they only get the same corruption should they either heal the offender, or aid him even with a single offensive skill or attack.

So much for trying to evade the wrath of the gods by trying to spread it out "evenly" on the gankers.

Percimes

Testing vs. balancing though.

I'm not sure how much A2 will be representative of what the game will be at launch, even at about the end of A2.

From the types of participants, still unfinished content, and any numerical values in general (from XPs rate, damage done, rest, loot values, etc, etc, etc.), there are limits on what we'll see in A2 that will reflect the game at the official launch.

I don't mean to diminish the importance of that phase of development, I'm simply saying to not take all of it at face value. Things will change, or at least be tweaked.

edit: And as @Nerror pointed out: players behaviours.

blat

Azherae wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'd be happier if people moreso kept 'griefing journals' for Intrepid, or if they had some built in system for it.

Made me think of how many times we use phrases like griefing, ganking, PKing etc, probably each with our own subtly different definitions.

Yeah, even more reason for it. I don't know if they'd get good data from everyone, but I'm sure there are some players that would take the chance to 'complain' to Intrepid's data collector:
"I would have killed this person if not for [This Reason]."

Possibly useful.

Ha well, sounds valid to me

HybridSR

Vissox wrote: »

I'm not anti PVP, but there is a difference between what is intended and a never ending gankfest.

Anyone who uses the word "gankfest" is anti PvP. Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest and it barely any "anti grief" features. So if Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest, Ashes won't be either.

Vissox wrote: »

PVP should have purpose

It does. If your party is out there about to kill a boss, the purpose of the party about to PK your healer and all the rest of your party, is to steal your boss loot and get better gear. Just because you got there first it doesn't mean you deserve the loot. When you get dropped in the best farming spot, it's because you're in the best farming spot and if you want it, you better be ready to fight for it, etc etc.

We don't need more trash penalties that stops all PvP/PK. The Corruption system is already 10x more punishing than Lineage 2's Karma system. In Lineage 2 if you PKd someone, you just got karma, then you could clean it by killing mobs. In AoC, if you get high karma you're marked in the map and chased by Bounty Hunters and if you kill more you deal reduced damage plus obviously the chance to drop equipped gear. If you think that's not enough to stop what you call "griefing" then this isn't the game for you.

PS: "Griefing" doesn't exist in Open World PvP MMOs . It's just carebears like you who get mad when you die to another player. For a lot of us, that's just part of the game and we take it as a challenge. We lose a mass pvp, we say "gf" and we keep playing. "You got me today, I'll get you next time".

The only players who complain about "griefing" are PvE players who are used to PvE MMOs and are quitters who will go town the moment they die and will never engage in a long fight because god forbid they die and lose some EXP.

Vissox

HybridSR wrote: »

Vissox wrote: »

I'm not anti PVP, but there is a difference between what is intended and a never ending gankfest.

Anyone who uses the word "gankfest" is anti PvP. Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest and it barely any "anti grief" features. So if Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest, Ashes won't be either.

Vissox wrote: »

PVP should have purpose

It does. If your party is out there about to kill a boss, the purpose of the party about to PK your healer and all the rest of your party, is to steal your boss loot and get better gear. Just because you got there first it doesn't mean you deserve the loot. When you get dropped in the best farming spot, it's because you're in the best farming spot and if you want it, you better be ready to fight for it, etc etc.

We don't need more trash penalties that stops all PvP/PK. The Corruption system is already 10x more punishing than Lineage 2's Karma system. In Lineage 2 if you PKd someone, you just got karma, then you could clean it by killing mobs. In AoC, if you get high karma you're marked in the map and chased by Bounty Hunters and if you kill more you deal reduced damage plus obviously the chance to drop equipped gear. If you think that's not enough to stop what you call "griefing" then this isn't the game for you.

PS: "Griefing" doesn't exist in Open World PvP MMOs . It's just carebears like you who get mad when you die to another player. For a lot of us, that's just part of the game and we take it as a challenge. We lose a mass pvp, we say "gf" and we keep playing. "You got me today, I'll get you next time".

The only players who complain about "griefing" are PvE players who are used to PvE MMOs and are quitters who will go town the moment they die and will never engage in a long fight because god forbid they die and lose some EXP.

Idk how you can reason that I'm the carebear when you got this upset over one little post XD.
IDGAF about lineage 2, I never played it. And if you really think that there are 0 rules when it comes to player engagement, like repetitive killing, graveyard camping, raid ganking, ect... well then I really cannot wait to find you ingame and put you in an infinite death loop hahahaha

CROW3

HybridSR wrote: »

PS: "Griefing" doesn't exist in Open World PvP MMOs

No. 🤦‍♂️

The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.

HybridSR

Vissox wrote: »

Idk how you can reason that I'm the carebear when you got this upset over one little post XD

Huh?

Vissox wrote: »

IDGAF about lineage 2, I never played it.

You type like a WoW/FF player who's allergic to PvP + I can tell you never touched a PvP MMO in your entire life, you didn't need to say you didn't play L2. It shows. AoC's biggest inspiration is Lineage 2, so maybe try learning a little bit about it.

Vissox wrote: »

Well then I really cannot wait to find you ingame and put you in an infinite death loop hahahaha

Wait, so I'm upset because I typed how in 10 years of playing an actual PvP MMO I never saw a single person calling the game a "gankfest" (except for PvE carebears who never even played L2), but you're the one telling me you "cannot wait find me ingame and put me in a death loop"? But I'm the one who's upset? lmaooo

You can try it, I'll be "Hybrid" ingame and I always play Ranger classes.

Back on topic. I'm going to repeat myself, since apparently you're unable to read. Me and many many others who will play AoC have a ton of experience in L2 or other PvP MMOs and we're here because AoC will be a PvP MMO even if you call it PvX (and if you don't believe it, you'll quickly realize the first time you're trying to kill an open world boss or attempt to farm in a great spot). Lineage 2 had basically ONE feature that safeguarded vs PKs. The karma system, which basically turned you red if you killed someone and it gave you a X number of "karma", and the more karma you had, the more chance you had to drop equipped gear on death. AoC has exactly the same + Bounty Hunters + PVP efficiency dampening. That's already absurd and borderline excessive deterrence.

The only time I saw people "camping" in Lineage 2, was when two guilds hated each other and there was a lot of history between the two, usually with a ton of drama which led to that situation. NOBODY in Lineage 2 was just killing players for no reason.

How do you think that's going to be in AoC, where they are punishing PKing SUPER harder? Use your head.

Even in Lineage 2, some people had only 20 PKs and ended up dropping their weapon. It was a huge unnecessary risk, unless you had a clear purpose for it. The only times I PKd in all my time in L2 was when we were trying to get a boss loot from another raid party, when contesting epics like Antharas, Valakas, Baium, etc... you just needed to PK at some point, the risk was worth it. You accepted the risk and trusted your clanmates to defend you. And maybe 4-5 times when I actually disliked someone. So even with PKing, there was a purpose to it. It was never a "gankfest", because nobody wants to risk losing months of progress over killing a random player who isn't a threat. Seriously, who would risk losing a month of gear progress over killing RandomJoe and then getting instantly sniped by a friend of the player you just killed?

Now, back to AoC. Intrepid already added WAY too many punishments to PKing IMO. I'm pretty sure if they added more features that stops PK then it would just get to the point where there's no point in PKing because it's just 99% risk and 1% reward. Half the people interested in this game would leave, cause that just means there's no way you can contest Open World bosses, you just need to get there first and then it becomes a game of "who has the most people online at the time the boss is alive". The fun part is fighting for the bosses, not zerging them down before the enemy can get there (not that you'd know about that).

The whole point, in fact, Steven's MAIN selling point for AoC has always been, FIGHT for the good shit, and whoever wins, gets the good stuff, not everyone can be a winner. Steven played Lineage 2 and more than anyone should know that sometimes PKing is NEEDED and you can't just punish players who do it when there's a clear purpose to it, just because a few carebears like you will cry and call it a "gankfest". Making it a risk is totally fine, it SHOULD be risky to PK but not to the point where it feels like you're dumb if you ever PK, even when it's super necessary

I'm 100% sure the measures are more than enough and if they were to add more, then they'd be failing their own vision of the game because nobody would be able to actually contest world bosses or anything really.

blat

The stat dampening for corruption does seem ridiculously excessive.

- Increased mat drops
- Risk of gear drop
- Lit up on the map as a target with an extra drop rate guarantee for a prize
- AND stat debuff scaling with corruption

I can take the first 3 but nerfing stats is just excessive.

There's a real risk of here of attempting to satisfy all but satisfying noone.

IMO two things fix a lot of it:
1) remove stat dampening (although obviously this falls under "balancing" which will be in A2 focus, fingers crossed)
2) (incentivised) option to pre-flag as combatant permanently or semi-permanently

blat

HybridSR wrote: »

Anyone who uses the word "gankfest" is anti PvP.

HybridSR wrote: »

If your party is out there about to kill a boss, the purpose of the party about to PK your healer and all the rest of your party, is to steal your boss loot and get better gear. Just because you got there first it doesn't mean you deserve the loot. When you get dropped in the best farming spot, it's because you're in the best farming spot and if you want it, you better be ready to fight for it, etc etc.

HybridSR wrote: »

It's just carebears like you who get mad when you die to another player. For a lot of us, that's just part of the game and we take it as a challenge. We lose a mass pvp, we say "gf" and we keep playing. "You got me today, I'll get you next time".

Agreed x3

Otr

Vissox wrote: »

I still think that anti-griefing systems are too optimistic. Here is my own hypothesis that I have based on PVP and PVX games I have played;

I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system and grind out their corruption during low pop hours.
I think that open world bosses will be to easy to grief.
I think the corruption debuff is will be easy to mitigate with a group of players targeting solo or duo players.

I'm not anti PVP, but there is a difference between what is intended and a never ending gankfest.
I think that during the alpha 2 players should try to exploit these systems to draw attention to any of these or other problems that might come up.
Best case scenario is I'm full of shit and everything is fine, second best is intrepid finds a problem and fixes it.
But I think we would all hate to see this game launch in a 24/7 Escape from Tarkov state when all you want to do is get a quest done.
PVP should have purpose but I think players have a tendency to make it purposeless. I see player, I kill player.

Food for thought.

Definitely players who like to test, will test to find out the limits of whatever constraints are set by the game.
And youtubers will make content and amplify that, make it sound worse than it is.
Also players will keep having their own meaning for what griefing is and being ganked once will be a tragedy.

blat

Otr wrote: »

Also players will keep having their own meaning for what griefing is and being ganked once will be a tragedy.

This is gonna be painful... they'll happily die repeatedly to simple bot mechanics for sh1tty gameplay but god forbid someone actually attempts to engage them in anything approaching real competition and they'll run crying to forums/YouTube

Kilion

Vissox wrote: »

"But I think we would all hate to see this game launch in a 24/7 Escape from Tarkov state when all you want to do is get a quest done. PVP should have purpose but I think players have a tendency to make it purposeless. I see player, I kill player."

Kilion: "A lot of criticism I have seen throughout my time on this forum and the subreddit is brought forth in a manner where people seem to expect the same type of people who play quick and fast games with lower price tags to come over and "grief Ashes into the ground". I don't think that this will be the case at all. Progress in Ashes will be much slower and impactful than most of the games recited for grief fest behavior. "

Vissox: People play all kinds of games, there are all kinds of players. It's stupid to just count on one group of players not showing up and designing systems that are ignorant of what anyone would try to do. You might not think that those players would not be interested in ashes, but you don't and can't know.

I didn't mean "these people won't show up"; my point is that the notion that this game would be overrun by griefers is something I think is unlikely. Meaning I also expect them to come, but not in the reckless "I'll just go nuts and then easy-peasy farm down corruption with zero risk." way because there is little to gain from that, while there is a lot more to gain from hunting these kinds of player (and people will have an advantage over these corrupted players; see the Bounty Hunter) in addition to the reputation loss with the associated Nodes and the social consequences of people refusing to cooperate with you.

And still I agreed with you that exploits should be uncovered fast. I just don't share the concern regarding the quantity of griefers, not do I agree to the notion that griefing would be a viable way to play Ashes - which are concerns that not you, but many others have shared; this was just a good opportunity to address these concerns that went beyond your point so I added my answer to those here.

daveywavey

HybridSR wrote: »

We lose a mass pvp, we say "gf" and we keep playing. "You got me today, I'll get you next time".

You tell other players to Get Fucked when they've killed you? Or was that just a typo of Good Game?

blat

daveywavey wrote: »

HybridSR wrote: »

We lose a mass pvp, we say "gf" and we keep playing. "You got me today, I'll get you next time".

You tell other players to Get Fucked when they've killed you? Or was that just a typo of Good Game?

ha, made the same assumption

AidanKD

I support the sentiment. If the corruption system works the way it's intended to, then going out of your way solely to grief constantly should work itself out through the penalties of the corruption system.

But I suppose other side of the coin - if you're going out of your way explicitly to see how far corruption goes; is that producing weird test results?

To counter THAT point - there are always people even in minorities who reach certain extremes; and this kind of testing is valuable to deal for these edge cases.

If a group of players do go on a rampage - then what is the player response; and in conjunction with the corruption system, does it serve as a deterrent for "excessive" killing?

I think the bolded point is the end goal. Balancing the scales. There will be a sweet spot and I think it probably does warrant pushing the system to some extremes.

Endowed

Vissox wrote: »

I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system

This is not only going to happen, its going to be the plan. Guild and Alliance wide mechanics abuse.

blat

Endowed wrote: »

Vissox wrote: »

I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system

This is not only going to happen, its going to be the plan. Guild and Alliance wide mechanics abuse.

Having to log out with the intention of logging in during quiet hours to work off corruption sounds like a pretty effective deterrent against griefing to me.

Also the logout timer is 60 secs when corrupted.

blat

Wiki:
"The more corruption you gain, the less effective you become in PvP and there's going to be a certain period at which point you have gained enough corruption that you're going to be gearless and you're also going to have a massive reduction in your PvP efficacy."

This seems so obviously way overboard to me.
Gearless and stat dampening and severe death penalties and lit up on the map of all local PvPers.

The death penalties and bounty hunting feel right, risk v reward etc.
But the stat dampening is taking it too far. Why punish you before you've even died yet?
It's meant to be risk not straight up punishment.

Dripyula

CROW3 wrote: »

HybridSR wrote: »

PS: "Griefing" doesn't exist in Open World PvP MMOs

No. 🤦‍♂️
The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.

Yup. 100% true. I have no shame to out myself as having been a griefer once too in WoW.
During TBC - because of the gear stat called "resilience" and how it affected damage & healing in PvP - Druids became overpowered during the maxlevel endgame.
They became almost unkillable, which angered me greatly cause "they are just garbage and the Paladin is the cool hybrid class, not the pathetic nature hippie who morphs into animals".

Yes this was my throught process back then.

I was young, hotblooded and... evil.

Henceforth whenever I found a Druid leveling up in the openworld, not having the gear that allowed them to be almost indestructable, I changed course on my flight mount, decendet like the Grimreaper and slaughtered that °angry beeping noises°.
And there were A LOT of people leveling Druid during that time.
MADE YOU WONDER WHYYYYYYY!

Theplague4u

With the corruption system I highly doubt there's going to be a big issue with it. Those that plan to be part of a PK group, will most likely have trash gear and weapons so unless you're running around with trash gear you have nothing to worry about.

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