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Players should go all out with griefing in the alpha 2
Vissox
Member
I still think that anti-griefing systems are too optimistic. Here is my own hypothesis that I have based on PVP and PVX games I have played;
I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system and grind out their corruption during low pop hours.
I think that open world bosses will be to easy to grief.
I think the corruption debuff is will be easy to mitigate with a group of players targeting solo or duo players.
I'm not anti PVP, but there is a difference between what is intended and a never ending gankfest.
I think that during the alpha 2 players should try to exploit these systems to draw attention to any of these or other problems that might come up.
Best case scenario is I'm full of shit and everything is fine, second best is intrepid finds a problem and fixes it.
But I think we would all hate to see this game launch in a 24/7 Escape from Tarkov state when all you want to do is get a quest done.
PVP should have purpose but I think players have a tendency to make it purposeless. I see player, I kill player.
Food for thought.
I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system and grind out their corruption during low pop hours.
I think that open world bosses will be to easy to grief.
I think the corruption debuff is will be easy to mitigate with a group of players targeting solo or duo players.
I'm not anti PVP, but there is a difference between what is intended and a never ending gankfest.
I think that during the alpha 2 players should try to exploit these systems to draw attention to any of these or other problems that might come up.
Best case scenario is I'm full of shit and everything is fine, second best is intrepid finds a problem and fixes it.
But I think we would all hate to see this game launch in a 24/7 Escape from Tarkov state when all you want to do is get a quest done.
PVP should have purpose but I think players have a tendency to make it purposeless. I see player, I kill player.
Food for thought.
6
Comments
However, I recently watched a YouTube video by Lucky Ghost titled The single biggest problem Ashes of Creation faces and later watched Asmongold's reaction to the same video.
The original video has some great points about what Ashes may face and with Asmongold's take, I think it's worth watching.
So to respond to the topic, I think it's important to show Intrepid how players will find ways to grief without penalty or unintended flagging in A2.
Can confirm this is how it felt for me in pretty much all games in which PvP was a thing. People will try to kill you just because they can, even if you do not have any loot with you or any reward for the victor.
Simply because they get off on the thought to make someone else angry.
One attempt which I liked back in WoW was to bring buffs to the table. For example in the Eastern Plaguelands I think there were about 4 or 5 towers stationed.
The more towers your side held the more percentages of a zone buff you would recieve.
Now this buff was utterly useless garbage
Something about 15% more damage against PvE or something.
It was so underwhelming that I cannot even bother to remember what it did as you can see.
World PvP could be very meaningful if it is tied to powerful buffs handed out by holding certain locations for your guild or whatever we will see, regarding factions in the game.
Something worth fighting over. And then I do not want to see alibi advantages that are not truly noticable.
I want to see HUGE benefits like
+ 50% more damage against PvE in the same zone
+ 30% more mounted speed in the same zone
+ 25% more drops found in the bodies of foe's and wildlife
Stuff like that. Positions like towers and the like could be taken simply by lowering the flag of a guild for example and hoisting your own. Upon which a message will pop up.
" This will flag you for faction PvP. Players of the opposing faction will not accumulate corruption should they slay you during the territorial conflict, even if you do not fight back. "
There will always be shades of gray, but if a group does X, it doesn't mean I suddenly need to do Z.
Usually PvE players are the ones that complain the loudest, and I have seen so many MMOs ruined because of it.
I hope Intrepid stands true and doesn't give in to loud screaming about being ganked on.
It will happen, if you invade grind spot or something 😅.
But for that to be the case, players need to have the time to do so, must be willing to wait until then & will be able to easily and swiftly decrease their corruption. So I get the concern, however I don't agree with the underlying exploit assumption at all.
"I think that open world bosses will be to easy to grief."
Eh... okay?
"I think the corruption debuff is will be easy to mitigate with a group of players targeting solo or duo players."
Okay?
"I think that during the alpha 2 players should try to exploit these systems to..." [bla bla bla]
100% YES. We should try and find the exploits if there are any. Again, not sharing any of the held ideas that these are already built in problems. At best, these are risks that exist if the systems are not implemented and balanced properly.
"But I think we would all hate to see this game launch in a 24/7 Escape from Tarkov state when all you want to do is get a quest done. PVP should have purpose but I think players have a tendency to make it purposeless. I see player, I kill player."
A lot of criticism I have seen throughout my time on this forum and the subreddit is brought forth in a manner where people seem to expect the same type of people who play quick and fast games with lower price tags to come over and "grief Ashes into the ground". I don't think that this will be the case at all. Progress in Ashes will be much slower and impactful than most of the games recited for grief fest behavior.
Plenty of talk about griefing, unintended flagging etc. What about unintended corruption, and janky mechanics getting in the way of consensual PvP?
Here's a mad thought; it doesn't always have to be one side Vs the other.
Sometimes mechanics can work to benefit both/all preferences, at the very least that should be the aim.
But how much do we know for Realsies, actually ?
We only know that when someone "MURDERS" someone else who doesn't fight back -> Corruption comes knocking at the Killers' Door.
When said Killer dies while being corrupted, he or she can lose a Piece of Gear that this Player might has worked for, for several WEEKS or so, to finally get what he or she wanted.
This sounds like a significant risk for murder-hobo'ing through the World.
Am i understanding this right ?
A Person kills a few People - and when Corruption hits an the own Character is more vulnerable and weaker, the Person logs out "EVERYTIME" - and comes online only like during Night-Hours so that there are less Players online who could hunt him down and put his Character to Justice ?
Like EVERY - SINGLE - TIME - the ingame-Murderer slaughters a few Players who don't fight back ??
This sounds unbelievable time-consuming and laborious only for murder a few "Green Players".
Hopefully you don't forget that " Buddies in Murder-Hobo Groups " (lol) could just murder their corrupted Members to faster cut down their Corruption Time again,
and give "killed Corrupted Friends" their lost Items back in Case they dropped some important Gear-Pieces. That of Course being the Case "IF" the System allows it and does not intentionally block the Possibility of a killed corrupted Player to get his/her Piece/s of Gear back from Someone else. (heheheh
B~uuut ?
I think our sexy Bountyhunters (which i hope there will be many around) will take Care of this Griefer-Problem perhaps and probably SO. FAST., that you might think this Topic here was completely unfounded and your Concerns and Worries not so justified after all.
Also i think it would add greatly to the Content. Yummy yummy hunting more intelligent "Killers" than just your average NPC Mobs that might pop up here and there.
Can happen to any of us here. With some People probably more than others.
I am confident the Game will be just right when the Release and Launch comes knocking. You can also be confident the Weight or Lightness of Punishments for murder-hobo'ing helpless and/or purely PvE-interested Players will probably be adjusted even after Release.
Would be awesome if " Corruption " is not Problem at all for someone who does it only very rarely - and absolute HELL of Risk for those who plan to make Playerkilling a daily Part of their Routine.
The map is massive, should be some where safe to level up.
I'm just going to join a half decent guild and hope for the best.
Hopefully we won't be calling this Ashes of Gankers
Very little
When the corruption system works as intended it can't be a gankbox, that's the whole point.
I am going to test how easy it is to spot Empyreans from a distance, so I can focus on ganking them, and provide feedback that makes it easier to spot the knife-ears at release.
Unless I make an Empyrean character, then the Niküa are gonna get it. Those stunties are easy to spot
Edit: No one should be griefing in the sense of the word that they cause other testers anguish. That's gonna be against the TOS in A2 as well. Work together to find exploits though.
That is unfortunate because I think if it's a problem in alpha it will be a problem at launch. The whole point of an alpha is to let players try to destroy the game so that those issues can be fixed, not swept under the rug.
A lot of criticism I have seen throughout my time on this forum and the subreddit is brought forth in a manner where people seem to expect the same type of people who play quick and fast games with lower price tags to come over and "grief Ashes into the ground". I don't think that this will be the case at all. Progress in Ashes will be much slower and impactful than most of the games recited for grief fest behavior.
People play all kinds of games, there are all kinds of players. It's stupid to just count on one group of players not showing up and designing systems that are ignorant of what anyone would try to do. You might not think that those players would not be interested in ashes, but you don't and can't know.
Not digging your aggressive tone buddy.
So you've never met people that spend their lives in MMORPGs? Cute.
You're also forgetting that people can have more than one character. Get corrupted on an alt, swap to a main and grind out the corruption later. Just because YOU don't think it's a worthwhile use of your time does not mean that others will feel the same way. Any system that can be exploited SHOULD BE TESTED IN ALPHA 2 . That's all my post was about essentially, I'm not trying to predict the future, I'm giving a call to action.
I also don't appreciate you cutting 5 words out of a complete thought and then trying to fight me with an 1/8th of a quote taken out of context. Pretty cringe.
Then someone figured out that you weren't 'immune to PvP while talking to NPCs', a few specific individuals spread this news, and it turned into a bloodbath.
Big 2b2t energy.
I expect that we'll be allowed to spread out for a day or two before PvP is enabled, for most Alpha-2 test restarts, based on the previous outcome.
I'd be happier if people moreso kept 'griefing journals' for Intrepid, or if they had some built in system for it. i.e. even if you don't actually attack, have a button or something that lets the target know 'I'd have attacked you'. And then they could respond 'I'd have fought back' or 'I'd have let you kill me' or whatever.
For those periods where PvP 'needs' to be turned off, that is.
Made me think of how many times we use phrases like griefing, ganking, PKing etc, probably each with our own subtly different definitions.
Yeah, even more reason for it. I don't know if they'd get good data from everyone, but I'm sure there are some players that would take the chance to 'complain' to Intrepid's data collector:
"I would have killed this person if not for [This Reason]."
Possibly useful.
What changes? xD
In case the caravane people do not fight back against attackers and are all slaughtered on the spot, why would the attackers not get corrupted?
Because now "the Gods are watching and find this time it is excusable" or something? ^_^
Once again I feel though as if talking about all of this is way too early.
What the Intrepit team aspires, I wonder what it is.
To me it sounds like they want a dangerous world, also dangerous because of the possible openworld PvP.
But then again, not really?
Since skilled openworld-PvP'ers get corrupted quickly, get debuffed just by corruption itself and they also risk to lose actual gearslot items they might not even find a quick or cheap replacement for.
And when it comes to ganking I would just make it so that players who are either in the same group or guild as an active playerkiller get his own corruptionvalue rated upon themself too... but only in an inactive state, just for being nearby.
Upon they only get the same corruption should they either heal the offender, or aid him even with a single offensive skill or attack.
So much for trying to evade the wrath of the gods by trying to spread it out "evenly" on the gankers.
I'm not sure how much A2 will be representative of what the game will be at launch, even at about the end of A2.
From the types of participants, still unfinished content, and any numerical values in general (from XPs rate, damage done, rest, loot values, etc, etc, etc.), there are limits on what we'll see in A2 that will reflect the game at the official launch.
I don't mean to diminish the importance of that phase of development, I'm simply saying to not take all of it at face value. Things will change, or at least be tweaked.
edit: And as @Nerror pointed out: players behaviours.
Ha well, sounds valid to me
Anyone who uses the word "gankfest" is anti PvP. Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest and it barely any "anti grief" features. So if Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest, Ashes won't be either.
It does. If your party is out there about to kill a boss, the purpose of the party about to PK your healer and all the rest of your party, is to steal your boss loot and get better gear. Just because you got there first it doesn't mean you deserve the loot. When you get dropped in the best farming spot, it's because you're in the best farming spot and if you want it, you better be ready to fight for it, etc etc.
We don't need more trash penalties that stops all PvP/PK. The Corruption system is already 10x more punishing than Lineage 2's Karma system. In Lineage 2 if you PKd someone, you just got karma, then you could clean it by killing mobs. In AoC, if you get high karma you're marked in the map and chased by Bounty Hunters and if you kill more you deal reduced damage plus obviously the chance to drop equipped gear. If you think that's not enough to stop what you call "griefing" then this isn't the game for you.
PS: "Griefing" doesn't exist in Open World PvP MMOs . It's just carebears like you who get mad when you die to another player. For a lot of us, that's just part of the game and we take it as a challenge. We lose a mass pvp, we say "gf" and we keep playing. "You got me today, I'll get you next time".
The only players who complain about "griefing" are PvE players who are used to PvE MMOs and are quitters who will go town the moment they die and will never engage in a long fight because god forbid they die and lose some EXP.
Idk how you can reason that I'm the carebear when you got this upset over one little post XD.
IDGAF about lineage 2, I never played it. And if you really think that there are 0 rules when it comes to player engagement, like repetitive killing, graveyard camping, raid ganking, ect... well then I really cannot wait to find you ingame and put you in an infinite death loop hahahaha
No. 🤦♂️
The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.
Huh?
You type like a WoW/FF player who's allergic to PvP + I can tell you never touched a PvP MMO in your entire life, you didn't need to say you didn't play L2. It shows. AoC's biggest inspiration is Lineage 2, so maybe try learning a little bit about it.
Wait, so I'm upset because I typed how in 10 years of playing an actual PvP MMO I never saw a single person calling the game a "gankfest" (except for PvE carebears who never even played L2), but you're the one telling me you "cannot wait find me ingame and put me in a death loop"? But I'm the one who's upset? lmaooo
You can try it, I'll be "Hybrid" ingame and I always play Ranger classes.
Back on topic. I'm going to repeat myself, since apparently you're unable to read. Me and many many others who will play AoC have a ton of experience in L2 or other PvP MMOs and we're here because AoC will be a PvP MMO even if you call it PvX (and if you don't believe it, you'll quickly realize the first time you're trying to kill an open world boss or attempt to farm in a great spot). Lineage 2 had basically ONE feature that safeguarded vs PKs. The karma system, which basically turned you red if you killed someone and it gave you a X number of "karma", and the more karma you had, the more chance you had to drop equipped gear on death. AoC has exactly the same + Bounty Hunters + PVP efficiency dampening. That's already absurd and borderline excessive deterrence.
The only time I saw people "camping" in Lineage 2, was when two guilds hated each other and there was a lot of history between the two, usually with a ton of drama which led to that situation. NOBODY in Lineage 2 was just killing players for no reason.
How do you think that's going to be in AoC, where they are punishing PKing SUPER harder? Use your head.
Even in Lineage 2, some people had only 20 PKs and ended up dropping their weapon. It was a huge unnecessary risk, unless you had a clear purpose for it. The only times I PKd in all my time in L2 was when we were trying to get a boss loot from another raid party, when contesting epics like Antharas, Valakas, Baium, etc... you just needed to PK at some point, the risk was worth it. You accepted the risk and trusted your clanmates to defend you. And maybe 4-5 times when I actually disliked someone. So even with PKing, there was a purpose to it. It was never a "gankfest", because nobody wants to risk losing months of progress over killing a random player who isn't a threat. Seriously, who would risk losing a month of gear progress over killing RandomJoe and then getting instantly sniped by a friend of the player you just killed?
Now, back to AoC. Intrepid already added WAY too many punishments to PKing IMO. I'm pretty sure if they added more features that stops PK then it would just get to the point where there's no point in PKing because it's just 99% risk and 1% reward. Half the people interested in this game would leave, cause that just means there's no way you can contest Open World bosses, you just need to get there first and then it becomes a game of "who has the most people online at the time the boss is alive". The fun part is fighting for the bosses, not zerging them down before the enemy can get there (not that you'd know about that).
The whole point, in fact, Steven's MAIN selling point for AoC has always been, FIGHT for the good shit, and whoever wins, gets the good stuff, not everyone can be a winner. Steven played Lineage 2 and more than anyone should know that sometimes PKing is NEEDED and you can't just punish players who do it when there's a clear purpose to it, just because a few carebears like you will cry and call it a "gankfest". Making it a risk is totally fine, it SHOULD be risky to PK but not to the point where it feels like you're dumb if you ever PK, even when it's super necessary
I'm 100% sure the measures are more than enough and if they were to add more, then they'd be failing their own vision of the game because nobody would be able to actually contest world bosses or anything really.
- Increased mat drops
- Risk of gear drop
- Lit up on the map as a target with an extra drop rate guarantee for a prize
- AND stat debuff scaling with corruption
I can take the first 3 but nerfing stats is just excessive.
There's a real risk of here of attempting to satisfy all but satisfying noone.
IMO two things fix a lot of it:
1) remove stat dampening (although obviously this falls under "balancing" which will be in A2 focus, fingers crossed)
2) (incentivised) option to pre-flag as combatant permanently or semi-permanently
Agreed x3
Definitely players who like to test, will test to find out the limits of whatever constraints are set by the game.
And youtubers will make content and amplify that, make it sound worse than it is.
Also players will keep having their own meaning for what griefing is and being ganked once will be a tragedy.