Players should go all out with griefing in the alpha 2

blat wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Vissox wrote: »

I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system

This is not only going to happen, its going to be the plan. Guild and Alliance wide mechanics abuse.

Having to log out with the intention of logging in during quiet hours to work off corruption sounds like a pretty effective deterrent against griefing to me.

Also the logout timer is 60 secs when corrupted.

Yes but the point is that the best way to play the game shouldn't be to not play.

DrPlague wrote: »

With the corruption system I highly doubt there's going to be a big issue with it. Those that plan to be part of a PK group, will most likely have trash gear and weapons so unless you're running around with trash gear you have nothing to worry about.

We can only speculate. I would like to see the system at it's worst, so we have an idea of how well it's working when it's closer to it's best.

Rvj

Reading these comments reminds me that there's a large subset of PvE focused players who truly believe that when they are killed in open world play while trying to do content like a world boss that the PvP players are playing the game "wrong" and they label it "griefing".

Looking at other MMOs' historical missteps, we can see that capitulating to these players will eventually remove all risk and emotion from the game. Hopefully the Ashes team recognizes that players truly do not really know what they want. Reject the "QoL" cries, the "griefing" cries, and stick to the formula you have laid out. It's not wrong, it just hurts, and players will cry about it until you remove the risk, then quit because the content has lost all feeling.

Vissox wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Vissox wrote: »

I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system

This is not only going to happen, its going to be the plan. Guild and Alliance wide mechanics abuse.

Having to log out with the intention of logging in during quiet hours to work off corruption sounds like a pretty effective deterrent against griefing to me.

Also the logout timer is 60 secs when corrupted.

Yes but the point is that the best way to play the game shouldn't be to not play.

It's a fair point. The deterrent is still working but you're right, the game is effectively incentivising logout at that point.

Rvj wrote: »

Reading these comments reminds me that there's a large subset of PvE focused players who truly believe that when they are killed in open world play while trying to do content like a world boss that the PvP players are playing the game "wrong" and they label it "griefing".

Looking at other MMOs' historical missteps, we can see that capitulating to these players will eventually remove all risk and emotion from the game. Hopefully the Ashes team recognizes that players truly do not really know what they want. Reject the "QoL" cries, the "griefing" cries, and stick to the formula you have laid out. It's not wrong, it just hurts, and players will cry about it until you remove the risk, then quit because the content has lost all feeling.

100% this.

Dripyula wrote: »

I know only one thing about corruption and that is... that I find it stupid that it - for some magical reason - does not exist during caravan attacks. Why?
What changes? xD

Caravans are primarily about prepping Nodes for Sieges, rather than about soloing.

CROW3 wrote: »

The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.

Which one?

HybridSR wrote: »

Anyone who uses the word "gankfest" is anti PvP. Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest and it barely any "anti grief" features. So if Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest, Ashes won't be either.

Steven said that L2 could at times be a murderbox.
He also says that Corruption will prevent Ashes from being a murderbox.
Of course, that was before the addition of The Open Seas.

Rvj wrote: »

Reading these comments reminds me that there's a large subset of PvE focused players who truly believe that when they are killed in open world play while trying to do content like a world boss that the PvP players are playing the game "wrong" and they label it "griefing".

Looking at other MMOs' historical missteps, we can see that capitulating to these players will eventually remove all risk and emotion from the game. Hopefully the Ashes team recognizes that players truly do not really know what they want. Reject the "QoL" cries, the "griefing" cries, and stick to the formula you have laid out. It's not wrong, it just hurts, and players will cry about it until you remove the risk, then quit because the content has lost all feeling.

If an open world boss is interruptible by PVP, that means the boss would need to be easy enough to be beaten through a PVP encounter. That's all well and good if every boss encounter gets ganked, but if that isn't the case, what do you have? Boring steamroll bosses.

As long as we are generalizing, every argument against a successful corruption system (which I'm not yet convinced we have) is that it's just something that helpless PvE players want, and everyone should just shut up about it (even though the system is badly designed with PVP in mind as well). But can we get one reason why the system should not exist, or at the very least why the current system will do a good enough job? That's what the discussion is about. You aren't making an intellectual argument by saying that people with a focus on PvE elements should not be considered, it's a PvX game. That means that things outside of PVP also need to be taken account of.

So again, why is killing players participating in an already challenging boss fight a good thing?
Why are dumbed down/easy boss fights as a compromise to PVP a good thing?
Why is corruption punishing players (specifically their stats) who seek/excell at PVP encounters a good thing.
Why is the ability to log out to avoid the penalties of corruption unchallenged?
What protects solo players from group PVP?

These are important questions. This is what we need to answer. Not "lol which side of the spectrum are these people on".

Dygz wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.

Which one?

Ultima Online. I never played it but I'm pretty sure that's where it comes from.

Vissox wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.

Which one?

Ultima Online. I never played it but I'm pretty sure that's where it comes from.

And... how many MMORPGs were there before UO?

I think HybridSR may be focused on other genres of MMO PvP games than MMORPGs specifically.
Like MMO FPS or MMO Survival, etc.

SnowElf

I agree with the overall thought process. It should be routinely tested, thoroughly and extensively to make sure that it still hinders players from easily deciding whether to attack other players or not.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of PVP. I love it so much, but I also do believe in heavy consequences.

Dygz wrote: »

Vissox wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.

Which one?

Ultima Online. I never played it but I'm pretty sure that's where it comes from.

And... how many MMORPGs were there before UO?

I don't know bro why don't you google it. I just answered your question.

UO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer#:~:text=A griefer or bad-faith,or stealing something, such as

SnowElf wrote: »

I agree with the overall thought process. It should be routinely tested, thoroughly and extensively to make sure that it still hinders players from easily deciding whether to attack other players or not.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of PVP. I love it so much, but I also do believe in heavy consequences.

We are on the same page. I'm not sure why everyone tries to categorize things like your either for this or against that.
PVP and PVE can and have worked congruently but games need to create a balance. We can like PVP without putting it at the expense of PvE.

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

Which one?

Dygz wrote: »

Vissox wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.

Which one?

Ultima Online. I never played it but I'm pretty sure that's where it comes from.

And... how many MMORPGs were there before UO?

I think HybridSR may be focused on other genres of MMO PvP games than MMORPGs specifically.
Like MMO FPS or MMO Survival, etc.

Here we are debating the definition of MMO again, I'm pretty sure noone gives a monkeys

HybridSR

daveywavey wrote: »

HybridSR wrote: »

We lose a mass pvp, we say "gf" and we keep playing. "You got me today, I'll get you next time".

You tell other players to Get Fucked when they've killed you? Or was that just a typo of Good Game?

lmao. it's short for "good fight"

Rvj wrote: »

Reading these comments reminds me that there's a large subset of PvE focused players who truly believe that when they are killed in open world play while trying to do content like a world boss that the PvP players are playing the game "wrong" and they label it "griefing".

Exactly my point. If it were for these "PvE players" or should I say "anti PvP players", no player would ever touch them. Nobody would contest their bosses, or their grind, or their spots, or anything really. It'd be FFXIV 2.0 (trash, boring, completely safe).

Here in this thread we have a prime example of a guy who never touched a PVP MMO in his life but he's already crying about griefing, when AoC already has 3x more punishment for PKs than Linege 2. PKing has SO many consequences, it makes zero sense to do it without a purpose. But that's not enough for him (even though he has 0 experience with PKing, just the thought of dying to a player triggers him so much that he needs to cry about it and ask for more punishment for PKing). He will get dropped once, cry on the forums, call it griefing and quit on the first day, if he ever plays at all but he's still here trying to turn AoC into FF.

The same guy says that "we need to go all out in Alpha 2 to see if it''s a problem. He's just trolling, because Alpha 2 isn't the game launch, so people won't give two shits about their gear so they WILL PK whenever they want, cause it's Alpha. Very different from game launch. So if you thought we didn't notice your little attempt at once again trying to prevent PvP/PKing, then try harder next time. Doesn't matter if Alpha 2 is a PKing festival. It's an Alpha.

Just like I said, players like him don't want to face player threats. If they're about to pick up a valuable mat and get killed, to them, that's griefing. You need to understand that these players will NEVER, EVER be okay with any form of PvP. They will never risk deaths for anyone, they just want to kill mobs and grind in peace. And there's plenty of MMOs out there where you can do that. Ashes won't be that.

HybridSR

Dygz wrote: »

Steven said that L2 could at times be a murderbox

Yah but context is important. What does murderbox mean? Does it mean random newbies get ass blasted by random players with top gear/level? No, that literally never happened.

It means two clans/alliances fucking hate each other and it's on sight. I've been in situations like that many many times. Most of the times you just Declared War, but since some clans didn't accept even though they had the numbers, that just meant you were forced to PK them because they'd bring numbers no matter what. At that point, PKing Vs. that Clan was almost always necessary to do anything in the open world. If you didn't, THEY would do that to you. That's a muderbox, but not in the way you'd think.

Dygz wrote: »

I think HybridSR may be focused on other genres of MMO PvP games than MMORPGs specifically.

Nope, I've always played MMOs. 10 years of L2 + like at least 5 years of Air Rivals/ACE Online (which was also kinda like an open World but more instanced, also heavy mass PvP game with a ton of grind. Lots of fun).