Well, for me personally I can give Intrepid pages and pages of extremely specific feedback on behalf of my group or even just for myself.
But I'm saying it in the context of 'Steven already having at least somewhat made this decision'.
At the end of the day, it's his game, and if he thinks it feels better this way, simply saying 'I don't like this feeling' won't really hold any weight, I think, since they will probably get equal amounts of feedback from others saying 'yes this feels good for me'.
At the end of the day, it's his game, and if he thinks it feels better this way, simply saying 'I don't like this feeling' won't really hold any weight, I think, since they will probably get equal amounts of feedback from others saying 'yes this feels good for me'.
Yeah, I don't really see people agreeing on even a similar timeframe for this. Yes, some people agreed in this thread, but we're a drop in a very big bucket.
I hope that other designs that are related to mob ttk will push people to ask for a change.
Maybe loot feels shitty, because any given person kills too many mobs in any given times which led Intrepid to reducing drop values.
Maybe mobs' atk speed and abilities are non-existent, cause they die before they can even use an ability, and this leads to people complaining that the pve is super boring.
Though yeah, if Steven prefers how the game feels with this kind of design - there's not much we can do.
At the end of the day, it's his game, and if he thinks it feels better this way, simply saying 'I don't like this feeling' won't really hold any weight, I think, since they will probably get equal amounts of feedback from others saying 'yes this feels good for me'.
Yeah, I don't really see people agreeing on even a similar timeframe for this. Yes, some people agreed in this thread, but we're a drop in a very big bucket.
I hope that other designs that are related to mob ttk will push people to ask for a change.
Maybe loot feels shitty, because any given person kills too many mobs in any given times which led Intrepid to reducing drop values.
Maybe mobs' atk speed and abilities are non-existent, cause they die before they can even use an ability, and this leads to people complaining that the pve is super boring.
Though yeah, if Steven prefers how the game feels with this kind of design - there's not much we can do.
I don't know...
These are all too obvious, in certain ways. The quote specifically says 'average solo mob', which is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
So the most likely problem will be 'loot' and the underlying and more insiduous 'separation of the playerbase', basically because the game will 'teach' solo casual players one thing about 'what it intends to be' and then completely mess with that once they get to any other content type.
I agree that we have basically no chance of 'agreeing' on it because some people will be willing to sacrifice other aspects of design for the same feeling that Steven desires, and some won't, and many others will just 'argue that there's no reason this shouldn't be an option' (which, if your Econ designer is good enough, is probably true).
I'd say the one weird thing, though, is... if quick average solo kills are themselves a thing that the team/Steven think 'this feels good', what does that mean for other content, if anything?
I'd say the one weird thing, though, is... if quick average solo kills are themselves a thing that the team/Steven think 'this feels good', what does that mean for other content, if anything?
If you're referencing this
I think this is talking about the pvp side of the ttk.
How longer was the ttk on average same-lvl mobs in A1? I know there was 0 balancing there, but still.
I definitely agree with the point of "people will learn the wrong thing due to this". I was thinking about the same problem in other parts of the game as well, like caravans/freeholds/sieges/pvp - all of which will only really be doable at max lvl (and preferably decent gear).
So if all that newcomers do in the game is kill easy mobs and do quests - the endgame would be so damn drastically different that I don't see how it'll retain anyone who didn't look into the game's gameplay beforehand.
And w/o seeing good mob AI in the showcases, it's really difficult to even come up with potential upper limits on how good mobs could even be in Ashes. Or how well that AI can shine in a short ttk period.
I'd say the one weird thing, though, is... if quick average solo kills are themselves a thing that the team/Steven think 'this feels good', what does that mean for other content, if anything?
If you're referencing this
I think this is talking about the pvp side of the ttk.
How longer was the ttk on average same-lvl mobs in A1? I know there was 0 balancing there, but still.
I definitely agree with the point of "people will learn the wrong thing due to this". I was thinking about the same problem in other parts of the game as well, like caravans/freeholds/sieges/pvp - all of which will only really be doable at max lvl (and preferably decent gear).
So if all that newcomers do in the game is kill easy mobs and do quests - the endgame would be so damn drastically different that I don't see how it'll retain anyone who didn't look into the game's gameplay beforehand.
And w/o seeing good mob AI in the showcases, it's really difficult to even come up with potential upper limits on how good mobs could even be in Ashes. Or how well that AI can shine in a short ttk period.
I'm not talking about that one, though I'm aware of it.
That's a whole separate can of worms, and I believe we already have another thread about it, but I'll leave that to Liniker and co. since I have that MOBA bias for PvP stuff.
I didn't fight at-level solo mobs much in A1, so I don't have enough memory to give any useful data. I remember that when I pushed for 'the max I could reasonably progress while doing', it had to be near 15s because I had to decide if to use Castigation a second time against stronger ones.
My issue isn't related to that, it's more specifically, an 'average solo mob' is almost certainly a mob that you are killing because you want to either clear a quest or gather mats/exp. In both these cases, if they are weaker, you are incentivized to clear them really fast for 'progression'.
A game where you can 'clear 400+ mobs per hour solo and this is a valid progression' is a really specific thing.
I can at least say, I don't think A1 was anything close to that.
I can see short TTK with low-AI, high-reaction solo mobs, which is sort of what TL is, but even TL has closer to an 8-10s TTK tuning on even weak stuff, and the MOBA style of 'short CD, relatively impactful abilities'.
So, that's where we're thinking of this from. If these mobs are not 'such trash that they are just there as filler and don't even drop anything particularly good', then a 6s TTK tuning would mean you can progress by mowing them down, or, that they're balanced similar to the new PvP TTK and hit for the numbers I think you've said you are used to.
Given the risk of getting ganked while killing mobs, a shorter mob TTK would allow you to get rid of the mob(s) sooner, increasing chances of survival.
So, that's where we're thinking of this from. If these mobs are not 'such trash that they are just there as filler and don't even drop anything particularly good', then a 6s TTK tuning would mean you can progress by mowing them down, or, that they're balanced similar to the new PvP TTK and hit for the numbers I think you've said you are used to.
What's even spookier to me is that all this balancing is most likely happening w/o food/bard buffs. So, in practice, this ttk is most likely closer to smth like 3-4s, if not lower. And then we're talking either insane amounts of mobs per any given soloable location or insane wait times for each mob, which leads to somewhat hard friction, which then clashes with the potential corruption balancing issues.
So far this kinda implies a big mess. I hope I'm wrong in seeing that implication.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So, that's where we're thinking of this from. If these mobs are not 'such trash that they are just there as filler and don't even drop anything particularly good', then a 6s TTK tuning would mean you can progress by mowing them down, or, that they're balanced similar to the new PvP TTK and hit for the numbers I think you've said you are used to.
Neverwinter, maybe?
6 seconds feels like an ARPG.
Where the typical Group is intended to be 8 (one of each Primary Archetype) - I would hope that battles last long enough for us to notice what our mates are doing and synergize our abilities with them.
Even 1v1, I would want my combat decisions to be longer than just 3 abilities.
I'd much prefer an RPG, rather than a Hack N Slash.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Given the risk of getting ganked while killing mobs, a shorter mob TTK would allow you to get rid of the mob(s) sooner, increasing chances of survival.
I don't care about TTK being fast or slow tbh. But it should be dangerous, like you said. If you can pull a bunch of mobs and they're easy to kill, that's fine if they do a lot of damage when they do get on top of you (and should have some ability to get on top of you).
I remember fighting the baby frost dragon in A1 and being able to kite it out, play around its mechanics, and it being super dangerous but took like 2-5 minutes to kill and that was fun as a single mob. But if it's just trash mobs, I don't think they should take that long to kill. If it takes 2-3 abilities and some autos I think that sounds about right.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
I think it should be a little bit slower than it is right now, but not much slower. It's already close to where I want it, but it's too fast at the moment from what it looks like. Though it's really hard to judge since we don't know the levels compared to the NPC levels, and we don't know if the amount of abilities they have is the amount of abilities we will have at that level. I think alpha 2 will be great to get a better idea of the ttk.
Given the risk of getting ganked while killing mobs, a shorter mob TTK would allow you to get rid of the mob(s) sooner, increasing chances of survival.
Sure. Let's minimize the PvE.
I neither agree nor disagree with 6sec TTK, I'm not much into PvE to really have a say in this, just pointing out one positive off the top of my head. When it comes to MMORPGs I'm more familiar with long TTK for your level mobs, while you can AoE lower level mobs, but I can't say that I prefer one over the other. Can't we just have both? Long TTK for "solo" mobs and short TTK for groups of "lesser" mobs.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Apparently we can't because Steven seems to want short TTK as the base, rather than medium TTK or long TTK.
I'm wondering if I'm missing context based on some of these comments.
Are we talking about TTK with
Solo content
Small group content
Large group content
Raid content.
My understanding is this is solo - small group content. And average mob is not an elite MOB. There will be multiple mobs around and stronger ones. These fights are not exactly going to be quick depending on the set difficulty and the pulls of players.
This leans towards larger packs of mobs which to me that is better imo as you can have more variety with mob dangers and threats of their skills.
I'm wondering if I'm missing context based on some of these comments.
Are we talking about TTK with
Solo content
Small group content
Large group content
Raid content.
My understanding is this is solo - small group content. And average mob is not an elite MOB. There will be multiple mobs around and stronger ones. These fights are not exactly going to be quick depending on the set difficulty and the pulls of players.
This leans towards larger packs of mobs which to me that is better imo as you can have more variety with mob dangers and threats of their skills.
I don't think you're missing any context. Different people just like really different types of games.
It is 'solo and small group content', with 'larger packs of mobs' probably, as you noted. For you, that's better, for others, it isn't.
From my side, I only care about the effort required to perfectly balance the time investment and rewards between the 'BDO style' and the 'EQ style' in a game of this type. For example, if a 'regular at-level solo mob' dies in 6s, and I choose to fight something 15 levels over me, do I get a benefit, or not?
My understanding is this is solo - small group content. And average mob is not an elite MOB. There will be multiple mobs around and stronger ones. These fights are not exactly going to be quick depending on the set difficulty and the pulls of players.
Imo, elites should be rare, because their loot is way more valuable and there's gotta be some competition. And I sure as hell hope an Elite mob is difficult and hard to kill, though, as was shown in the fighter preview - they really really really are not.
This leans towards larger packs of mobs which to me that is better imo as you can have more variety with mob dangers and threats of their skills.
Yes, it sounds like BDO combat, where you pull several mobs and dance around them, while aoeing their asses. Or if we go for party stuff - it sounds like L2, where one pulls and kites while others aoe.
I liked both of those when I played both of those, but I'd prefer a harder pve design with a more interesting set of mob abilities and approaches. "Average mob" implies the general populous that you'll be killing hundreds and thousands of daily. Intrepid could have several "average" mobs per spawn spot, each taking 6s (4 if buffed and maybe back to 6 if you're killing them with aoes while buffed), but then how will they balance these kinds of ttk speeds against player distribution.
If each mob is only 6s to kill, the optimal way to farm is collect as many as possible and kill them all with an aoe (as I believe was the meta in BDO), but Ashes doesn't plan to have layers and channels or whatever, so one dude collecting the mobs means none of those mobs for other people (and we're talking solo mobs, so partying up is the opposite of optimal). This leads to a way higher chance of PKing attempts and/or mob training onto other players.
I'm personally against these strats being the optimal way to play solo, because I want solo players to have their locations and enjoy the game, while groups go hard on fights and strats around hardcore groups of mobs. Pvping around a mob 1v1 is nice if you know that this mob could swing your battle either way with just an ability or two. Pvping around a train of mobs usually means death for the target of the train, or, if the mobs are even more trivial than I assume them to be - just more help for that target, cause they probably would've gone for that train either way.
My understanding is this is solo - small group content. And average mob is not an elite MOB. There will be multiple mobs around and stronger ones. These fights are not exactly going to be quick depending on the set difficulty and the pulls of players.
Imo, elites should be rare, because their loot is way more valuable and there's gotta be some competition. And I sure as hell hope an Elite mob is difficult and hard to kill, though, as was shown in the fighter preview - they really really really are not.
This leans towards larger packs of mobs which to me that is better imo as you can have more variety with mob dangers and threats of their skills.
Yes, it sounds like BDO combat, where you pull several mobs and dance around them, while aoeing their asses. Or if we go for party stuff - it sounds like L2, where one pulls and kites while others aoe.
I liked both of those when I played both of those, but I'd prefer a harder pve design with a more interesting set of mob abilities and approaches. "Average mob" implies the general populous that you'll be killing hundreds and thousands of daily. Intrepid could have several "average" mobs per spawn spot, each taking 6s (4 if buffed and maybe back to 6 if you're killing them with aoes while buffed), but then how will they balance these kinds of ttk speeds against player distribution.
If each mob is only 6s to kill, the optimal way to farm is collect as many as possible and kill them all with an aoe (as I believe was the meta in BDO), but Ashes doesn't plan to have layers and channels or whatever, so one dude collecting the mobs means none of those mobs for other people (and we're talking solo mobs, so partying up is the opposite of optimal). This leads to a way higher chance of PKing attempts and/or mob training onto other players.
I'm personally against these strats being the optimal way to play solo, because I want solo players to have their locations and enjoy the game, while groups go hard on fights and strats around hardcore groups of mobs. Pvping around a mob 1v1 is nice if you know that this mob could swing your battle either way with just an ability or two. Pvping around a train of mobs usually means death for the target of the train, or, if the mobs are even more trivial than I assume them to be - just more help for that target, cause they probably would've gone for that train either way.
When i say elites I'm talking about older school mmorpgs. You have normal mobs, than you have elites which are far more powerful and meant for group content.
So you can have a boss, but you can also have an elite boss. You can have a strong mob and an elite strong mob, normal elite mob, etc etc.
With the mob grouping that depends on the skill sets mobs have and how actively they use them with the AI. I could play TL and group mobs as well, same with any other mmorpg or older mmo as you always have some kind of aoe skill generally. So there is really no difference.
The reason why people can do it is because of the lack of skill and abilities from these basic mobs since all they do is run towards you and attack. The way to make this more difficult and the game more fun imo is having more basic mobs with more interesting abilities so you can't just kite and run as easily.
Not saying it won't be done but it will be more difficult and make the game more fun since you have basic mobs having strong effects as well. Ie the summoner that we saw npc wise if they mobs hit you, it could add a stacking slow. So if you kite a bunch of them and they summon it makes it really hard to get away. (as just a simple skill example)
6 seconds is about right. I've played mmos that had average open world mobs that lasted twice as long as that and it feels awful. Your class feels useless and underpowered. All that happens is that you eventually get sick of it and just run by them to get to your goal.
The end result is that people stop engaging with the game world and focus on efficiency only.
6 sounds like a low number but count it out. One thousand one, one thousand two... Now do it for all thirty mobs on the screen you are trying to farm.
Now change it to 12 seconds at a time for all 30 mobs. I mean does that sound like fun, or sound like something that makes your class feel powerful at all? No way
The way to make this more difficult and the game more fun imo is having more basic mobs with more interesting abilities so you can't just kite and run as easily.
Which is a part of this discussion. We haven't seen or heard about anything those interesting abilities or mechanics. The only even nearest thing to that was the little shield a goblin had in the last showcase, though even that seemed to have just been "a shield" and that's it.
And it's also why I said that, unless mob atk speed is super fast - ya ain't seeing any of those cool abilities in 6 seconds, because the mob simply won't have enough time to use them.
Now change it to 12 seconds at a time for all 30 mobs. I mean does that sound like fun, or sound like something that makes your class feel powerful at all? No way
If it's mobs with a variety of cool mechanics and skills who require me to not just hit 3 buttons - I'd prefer to have 12s over 6.
If it's L2 style pve where mobs have an orange attack skill and an orange stun that looks and works just like the attack skill, but also has stun on it - yes, I would prefer to cut those down in 6s.
The power of any given class can be shown in a multitude of ways. Mowing down dumb 10hp mobs is definitely one of them, but it is also the dullest one.
The way to make this more difficult and the game more fun imo is having more basic mobs with more interesting abilities so you can't just kite and run as easily.
Which is a part of this discussion. We haven't seen or heard about anything those interesting abilities or mechanics. The only even nearest thing to that was the little shield a goblin had in the last showcase, though even that seemed to have just been "a shield" and that's it.
And it's also why I said that, unless mob atk speed is super fast - ya ain't seeing any of those cool abilities in 6 seconds, because the mob simply won't have enough time to use them.
Now change it to 12 seconds at a time for all 30 mobs. I mean does that sound like fun, or sound like something that makes your class feel powerful at all? No way
If it's mobs with a variety of cool mechanics and skills who require me to not just hit 3 buttons - I'd prefer to have 12s over 6.
If it's L2 style pve where mobs have an orange attack skill and an orange stun that looks and works just like the attack skill, but also has stun on it - yes, I would prefer to cut those down in 6s.
The power of any given class can be shown in a multitude of ways. Mowing down dumb 10hp mobs is definitely one of them, but it is also the dullest one.
I think its the L2 style you will see. All battles being long drawn out, epic affairs is too slow for an MMO because of the amount of time we spend in them.
Souls like combat works in those games because people do it in doses. Most people who love Elden Ring will do a run-through, love it, then go on to other things before coming back weeks or months later.
With MMOs you log in every single day. That slow, drawn out pace is far more taxing when you play that often.
The way to make this more difficult and the game more fun imo is having more basic mobs with more interesting abilities so you can't just kite and run as easily.
Which is a part of this discussion. We haven't seen or heard about anything those interesting abilities or mechanics. The only even nearest thing to that was the little shield a goblin had in the last showcase, though even that seemed to have just been "a shield" and that's it.
And it's also why I said that, unless mob atk speed is super fast - ya ain't seeing any of those cool abilities in 6 seconds, because the mob simply won't have enough time to use them.
Now change it to 12 seconds at a time for all 30 mobs. I mean does that sound like fun, or sound like something that makes your class feel powerful at all? No way
If it's mobs with a variety of cool mechanics and skills who require me to not just hit 3 buttons - I'd prefer to have 12s over 6.
If it's L2 style pve where mobs have an orange attack skill and an orange stun that looks and works just like the attack skill, but also has stun on it - yes, I would prefer to cut those down in 6s.
The power of any given class can be shown in a multitude of ways. Mowing down dumb 10hp mobs is definitely one of them, but it is also the dullest one.
If you are kiting a bunch of mobs you are 100% going to see them, you also shouldn't be expecting to be fighting a single mob unless you are trying to be safe and only pulling one and ccing the rest to be extra careful.
We need to remember these are weak mobs, if you are fighting a group of 3 there is no reason why you won't see a skill. It also doesn't mean you should always see a skill.
There are going to be mobs that survive for 12 seconds being stronger ones. I feel you are looking at this as you are only fighting these mobs. Trash mobs do not need to be tanky based on solo - small group level content.
If you are talking about dungeons, elites, etc that is a different topic than the most basic mobs in the world that are meant to be easier. Give them some interesting skills imo is best way to add some challenge and not make it a snooze fest or easily to aoe grind as well. Again giving skills shouldn't be about making them overly difficult for trash mobs.
There are going to be mobs that survive for 12 seconds being stronger ones. I feel you are looking at this as you are only fighting these mobs. Trash mobs do not need to be tanky based on solo - small group level content.
And my entire point is I don't want "average mob" to be a trash mob. I want base lvl to be above what other mmos provide. Yes, there CAN be some trash mobs, but they should be their own thing, just as elites will be, while the average mob is something better and more difficult.
I think its the L2 style you will see. All battles being long drawn out, epic affairs is too slow for an MMO because of the amount of time we spend in them.
And this is your feedback to Intrepid regarding the topic of this thread
There are going to be mobs that survive for 12 seconds being stronger ones. I feel you are looking at this as you are only fighting these mobs. Trash mobs do not need to be tanky based on solo - small group level content.
And my entire point is I don't want "average mob" to be a trash mob. I want base lvl to be above what other mmos provide. Yes, there CAN be some trash mobs, but they should be their own thing, just as elites will be, while the average mob is something better and more difficult.
I think its the L2 style you will see. All battles being long drawn out, epic affairs is too slow for an MMO because of the amount of time we spend in them.
And this is your feedback to Intrepid regarding the topic of this thread
Mine is that I don't want that
I feel like you are not making realistic expectations for a mmorpg. There are trash mobs in every mmorpg that is the nature of the game. Even if you had some crazy ai thing it doesn't mean it be used in every game as well.
Either way mobs dying in 6 seconds, 12 seconds, 30 seconds they are all still trash mobs it really doesn't matter. Be it mmorpg or not they exist in all games, to make a statement you don't want trash mobs in a mmorpg is just not realistic.
Difficulty will be scaled up for other content, they aren't going to design the mmorpg to have exotic difficult mobs so a casual player is struggling at all points in the game. Not to mention the effort for that as there is not infinite resources.
There are going to be mobs that survive for 12 seconds being stronger ones. I feel you are looking at this as you are only fighting these mobs. Trash mobs do not need to be tanky based on solo - small group level content.
And my entire point is I don't want "average mob" to be a trash mob. I want base lvl to be above what other mmos provide. Yes, there CAN be some trash mobs, but they should be their own thing, just as elites will be, while the average mob is something better and more difficult.
I think its the L2 style you will see. All battles being long drawn out, epic affairs is too slow for an MMO because of the amount of time we spend in them.
And this is your feedback to Intrepid regarding the topic of this thread
Mine is that I don't want that
I feel like you are not making realistic expectations for a mmorpg. There are trash mobs in every mmorpg that is the nature of the game. Even if you had some crazy ai thing it doesn't mean it be used in every game as well.
Either way mobs dying in 6 seconds, 12 seconds, 30 seconds they are all still trash mobs it really doesn't matter. Be it mmorpg or not they exist in all games, to make a statement you don't want trash mobs in a mmorpg is just not realistic.
Difficulty will be scaled up for other content, they aren't going to design the mmorpg to have exotic difficult mobs so a casual player is struggling at all points in the game. Not to mention the effort for that as there is not infinite resources.
There are not.
There are multiple design systems you can use for MMOs.
At least don't just dismiss other people's experiences. I can understand that you don't like it, but I think it is a negative for MMOs as a whole if you reduce them all to what you experience yourself.
Difficulty will be scaled up for other content, they aren't going to design the mmorpg to have exotic difficult mobs so a casual player is struggling at all points in the game. Not to mention the effort for that as there is not infinite resources.
So difficulty can be scaled and elite mob will exist, but me asking for those elites to be slightly scaled down and be the average is somehow unrealistic?
Just say you want BDO combat instead of old EQ combat. It's ok to have that opinion.
Ashes has been moving away from any reasonable PvE since Jeff left, and so a stupid fast ttk for PvE like this has been basically guaranteed for a while now.
While I can see why some people think this allows for groups AoE PvE killing, it really doesn't. That being an effective tactic is more of a result of mobs damage output and potential to CC players than it is a function of how long they take to kill.
I'm also somewhat concerned with the notion of being able to start that mobs should take a certain number of abilities to kill - this suggests abilities are all dealing around d the same amount of damage. If Steven has indeed instructed his team to ensure mobs die in three abilities and two basic weapon attacks, then his team have no option other than to make sure that happens.
Difficulty will be scaled up for other content, they aren't going to design the mmorpg to have exotic difficult mobs so a casual player is struggling at all points in the game. Not to mention the effort for that as there is not infinite resources.
So difficulty can be scaled and elite mob will exist, but me asking for those elites to be slightly scaled down and be the average is somehow unrealistic?
Just say you want BDO combat instead of old EQ combat. It's ok to have that opinion.
I think you are missing the point here asking for elite mobs to be scaled down. And talking about bdo is not helping your case.
I've already explained this enough already i don't feel like doing a whole post and talking about pve and mob types.
Nah, I'm just gonna disengage because it's obvious that Mag has gone the regular way of "I pretend I do not see your points and will say that you don't see mine either".
Others can keep giving their responses to the OP, but I think we've already gotten the active minority's responses already, so I expect the thread to die out relatively quickly.
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But I'm saying it in the context of 'Steven already having at least somewhat made this decision'.
At the end of the day, it's his game, and if he thinks it feels better this way, simply saying 'I don't like this feeling' won't really hold any weight, I think, since they will probably get equal amounts of feedback from others saying 'yes this feels good for me'.
I hope that other designs that are related to mob ttk will push people to ask for a change.
Maybe loot feels shitty, because any given person kills too many mobs in any given times which led Intrepid to reducing drop values.
Maybe mobs' atk speed and abilities are non-existent, cause they die before they can even use an ability, and this leads to people complaining that the pve is super boring.
Though yeah, if Steven prefers how the game feels with this kind of design - there's not much we can do.
I don't know...
These are all too obvious, in certain ways. The quote specifically says 'average solo mob', which is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
So the most likely problem will be 'loot' and the underlying and more insiduous 'separation of the playerbase', basically because the game will 'teach' solo casual players one thing about 'what it intends to be' and then completely mess with that once they get to any other content type.
I agree that we have basically no chance of 'agreeing' on it because some people will be willing to sacrifice other aspects of design for the same feeling that Steven desires, and some won't, and many others will just 'argue that there's no reason this shouldn't be an option' (which, if your Econ designer is good enough, is probably true).
I'd say the one weird thing, though, is... if quick average solo kills are themselves a thing that the team/Steven think 'this feels good', what does that mean for other content, if anything?
I think this is talking about the pvp side of the ttk.
How longer was the ttk on average same-lvl mobs in A1? I know there was 0 balancing there, but still.
I definitely agree with the point of "people will learn the wrong thing due to this". I was thinking about the same problem in other parts of the game as well, like caravans/freeholds/sieges/pvp - all of which will only really be doable at max lvl (and preferably decent gear).
So if all that newcomers do in the game is kill easy mobs and do quests - the endgame would be so damn drastically different that I don't see how it'll retain anyone who didn't look into the game's gameplay beforehand.
And w/o seeing good mob AI in the showcases, it's really difficult to even come up with potential upper limits on how good mobs could even be in Ashes. Or how well that AI can shine in a short ttk period.
I'm not talking about that one, though I'm aware of it.
That's a whole separate can of worms, and I believe we already have another thread about it, but I'll leave that to Liniker and co. since I have that MOBA bias for PvP stuff.
I didn't fight at-level solo mobs much in A1, so I don't have enough memory to give any useful data. I remember that when I pushed for 'the max I could reasonably progress while doing', it had to be near 15s because I had to decide if to use Castigation a second time against stronger ones.
My issue isn't related to that, it's more specifically, an 'average solo mob' is almost certainly a mob that you are killing because you want to either clear a quest or gather mats/exp. In both these cases, if they are weaker, you are incentivized to clear them really fast for 'progression'.
A game where you can 'clear 400+ mobs per hour solo and this is a valid progression' is a really specific thing.
I can at least say, I don't think A1 was anything close to that.
I can see short TTK with low-AI, high-reaction solo mobs, which is sort of what TL is, but even TL has closer to an 8-10s TTK tuning on even weak stuff, and the MOBA style of 'short CD, relatively impactful abilities'.
So, that's where we're thinking of this from. If these mobs are not 'such trash that they are just there as filler and don't even drop anything particularly good', then a 6s TTK tuning would mean you can progress by mowing them down, or, that they're balanced similar to the new PvP TTK and hit for the numbers I think you've said you are used to.
Neverwinter, maybe?
So far this kinda implies a big mess. I hope I'm wrong in seeing that implication.
Where the typical Group is intended to be 8 (one of each Primary Archetype) - I would hope that battles last long enough for us to notice what our mates are doing and synergize our abilities with them.
Even 1v1, I would want my combat decisions to be longer than just 3 abilities.
I'd much prefer an RPG, rather than a Hack N Slash.
I remember fighting the baby frost dragon in A1 and being able to kite it out, play around its mechanics, and it being super dangerous but took like 2-5 minutes to kill and that was fun as a single mob. But if it's just trash mobs, I don't think they should take that long to kill. If it takes 2-3 abilities and some autos I think that sounds about right.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Are we talking about TTK with
Solo content
Small group content
Large group content
Raid content.
My understanding is this is solo - small group content. And average mob is not an elite MOB. There will be multiple mobs around and stronger ones. These fights are not exactly going to be quick depending on the set difficulty and the pulls of players.
This leans towards larger packs of mobs which to me that is better imo as you can have more variety with mob dangers and threats of their skills.
I don't think you're missing any context. Different people just like really different types of games.
It is 'solo and small group content', with 'larger packs of mobs' probably, as you noted. For you, that's better, for others, it isn't.
From my side, I only care about the effort required to perfectly balance the time investment and rewards between the 'BDO style' and the 'EQ style' in a game of this type. For example, if a 'regular at-level solo mob' dies in 6s, and I choose to fight something 15 levels over me, do I get a benefit, or not?
Imo, elites should be rare, because their loot is way more valuable and there's gotta be some competition. And I sure as hell hope an Elite mob is difficult and hard to kill, though, as was shown in the fighter preview - they really really really are not.
Yes, it sounds like BDO combat, where you pull several mobs and dance around them, while aoeing their asses. Or if we go for party stuff - it sounds like L2, where one pulls and kites while others aoe.
I liked both of those when I played both of those, but I'd prefer a harder pve design with a more interesting set of mob abilities and approaches. "Average mob" implies the general populous that you'll be killing hundreds and thousands of daily. Intrepid could have several "average" mobs per spawn spot, each taking 6s (4 if buffed and maybe back to 6 if you're killing them with aoes while buffed), but then how will they balance these kinds of ttk speeds against player distribution.
If each mob is only 6s to kill, the optimal way to farm is collect as many as possible and kill them all with an aoe (as I believe was the meta in BDO), but Ashes doesn't plan to have layers and channels or whatever, so one dude collecting the mobs means none of those mobs for other people (and we're talking solo mobs, so partying up is the opposite of optimal). This leads to a way higher chance of PKing attempts and/or mob training onto other players.
I'm personally against these strats being the optimal way to play solo, because I want solo players to have their locations and enjoy the game, while groups go hard on fights and strats around hardcore groups of mobs. Pvping around a mob 1v1 is nice if you know that this mob could swing your battle either way with just an ability or two. Pvping around a train of mobs usually means death for the target of the train, or, if the mobs are even more trivial than I assume them to be - just more help for that target, cause they probably would've gone for that train either way.
When i say elites I'm talking about older school mmorpgs. You have normal mobs, than you have elites which are far more powerful and meant for group content.
So you can have a boss, but you can also have an elite boss. You can have a strong mob and an elite strong mob, normal elite mob, etc etc.
With the mob grouping that depends on the skill sets mobs have and how actively they use them with the AI. I could play TL and group mobs as well, same with any other mmorpg or older mmo as you always have some kind of aoe skill generally. So there is really no difference.
The reason why people can do it is because of the lack of skill and abilities from these basic mobs since all they do is run towards you and attack. The way to make this more difficult and the game more fun imo is having more basic mobs with more interesting abilities so you can't just kite and run as easily.
Not saying it won't be done but it will be more difficult and make the game more fun since you have basic mobs having strong effects as well. Ie the summoner that we saw npc wise if they mobs hit you, it could add a stacking slow. So if you kite a bunch of them and they summon it makes it really hard to get away. (as just a simple skill example)
The end result is that people stop engaging with the game world and focus on efficiency only.
6 sounds like a low number but count it out. One thousand one, one thousand two... Now do it for all thirty mobs on the screen you are trying to farm.
Now change it to 12 seconds at a time for all 30 mobs. I mean does that sound like fun, or sound like something that makes your class feel powerful at all? No way
And it's also why I said that, unless mob atk speed is super fast - ya ain't seeing any of those cool abilities in 6 seconds, because the mob simply won't have enough time to use them.
If it's mobs with a variety of cool mechanics and skills who require me to not just hit 3 buttons - I'd prefer to have 12s over 6.
If it's L2 style pve where mobs have an orange attack skill and an orange stun that looks and works just like the attack skill, but also has stun on it - yes, I would prefer to cut those down in 6s.
The power of any given class can be shown in a multitude of ways. Mowing down dumb 10hp mobs is definitely one of them, but it is also the dullest one.
I think its the L2 style you will see. All battles being long drawn out, epic affairs is too slow for an MMO because of the amount of time we spend in them.
Souls like combat works in those games because people do it in doses. Most people who love Elden Ring will do a run-through, love it, then go on to other things before coming back weeks or months later.
With MMOs you log in every single day. That slow, drawn out pace is far more taxing when you play that often.
If you are kiting a bunch of mobs you are 100% going to see them, you also shouldn't be expecting to be fighting a single mob unless you are trying to be safe and only pulling one and ccing the rest to be extra careful.
We need to remember these are weak mobs, if you are fighting a group of 3 there is no reason why you won't see a skill. It also doesn't mean you should always see a skill.
There are going to be mobs that survive for 12 seconds being stronger ones. I feel you are looking at this as you are only fighting these mobs. Trash mobs do not need to be tanky based on solo - small group level content.
If you are talking about dungeons, elites, etc that is a different topic than the most basic mobs in the world that are meant to be easier. Give them some interesting skills imo is best way to add some challenge and not make it a snooze fest or easily to aoe grind as well. Again giving skills shouldn't be about making them overly difficult for trash mobs.
And this is your feedback to Intrepid regarding the topic of this thread
Mine is that I don't want that
I feel like you are not making realistic expectations for a mmorpg. There are trash mobs in every mmorpg that is the nature of the game. Even if you had some crazy ai thing it doesn't mean it be used in every game as well.
Either way mobs dying in 6 seconds, 12 seconds, 30 seconds they are all still trash mobs it really doesn't matter. Be it mmorpg or not they exist in all games, to make a statement you don't want trash mobs in a mmorpg is just not realistic.
Difficulty will be scaled up for other content, they aren't going to design the mmorpg to have exotic difficult mobs so a casual player is struggling at all points in the game. Not to mention the effort for that as there is not infinite resources.
There are not.
There are multiple design systems you can use for MMOs.
At least don't just dismiss other people's experiences. I can understand that you don't like it, but I think it is a negative for MMOs as a whole if you reduce them all to what you experience yourself.
Just say you want BDO combat instead of old EQ combat. It's ok to have that opinion.
Ashes has been moving away from any reasonable PvE since Jeff left, and so a stupid fast ttk for PvE like this has been basically guaranteed for a while now.
While I can see why some people think this allows for groups AoE PvE killing, it really doesn't. That being an effective tactic is more of a result of mobs damage output and potential to CC players than it is a function of how long they take to kill.
I'm also somewhat concerned with the notion of being able to start that mobs should take a certain number of abilities to kill - this suggests abilities are all dealing around d the same amount of damage. If Steven has indeed instructed his team to ensure mobs die in three abilities and two basic weapon attacks, then his team have no option other than to make sure that happens.
I think you are missing the point here asking for elite mobs to be scaled down. And talking about bdo is not helping your case.
I've already explained this enough already i don't feel like doing a whole post and talking about pve and mob types.
So disappointing...
Others can keep giving their responses to the OP, but I think we've already gotten the active minority's responses already, so I expect the thread to die out relatively quickly.
How would you have realistically liked to see it go?