Ashes, Mortal Online 2, and stark terror…

So, I’ve been playing Mortal Online II for the past six weeks or so. And completely immersed - especially thinking through how this relates back to Ashes.

If you’re not familiar with the original (I wasn’t) MO2 is a vast open-world, full loot, pvp mmo with forced 1st-person perspective, action combat, and a frankly over-the-top ‘use based’ skill-system that encourages specialization. ‘Use based’ means you increase skill as you use them. For the old school, this feels like the spiritual successor to UO (sans Richard Garriott’s creative brilliance).

So, what does this have to do with Ashes?

We’ve spent years discussing the ins and outs of world pvp, mat drops, and corruption. For me, MO2 has really helped clarify the middle ground approach Steven (et al) has taken on PvX. There is always a tangible sense of danger in MO2. Since, death has the consequence of losing everything you’re carrying (including your mount), you constantly stay aware of your surroundings. Is that a rock or a bear? Is that a player or a tree in the wind? Player interactions are tense. Cities aren’t safe, even those with guards. You can still be knifed in some shady corners. Those without guards are ruled by local guilds, or simply by how dangerous you appear.

To counter this, you craft or buy redundant gear, and keep it in the bank (which are not shared across cities). This also means that skill (both stat and twitch) becomes the arbiter of combat encounters instead of gear.

There are a lot of naked toons running around this world.

Losing everything SUCKS, but you get used to it. You find ways to mitigate this with what crafting skills you employ. Guilds become important, but also make you a target.

For Ashes, the drops on death feels like it’s going to be balanced. Enough to add risk, but not enough to be a paralytic at the city gates. Corruption feels like it will help just enough, but not overly punishing. Caravans will feel like a sensible way to mitigate risk, and be a tempting target to raid without overly detrimental consequences. After all, where the MO2 devs overtly vie for ‘the most hardcore mmo’ (and in some cases I think attempt to camouflage bad design behind ‘hardcore’), IS is clearly aware they are creating a game we want to enjoy with some hardcorishness factors. Brass tacks: It just amps my excitement for Ashes.

TL:DR: MO2 clarifies some of Ashes’ design decisions in a surprising, tangible way. It’s worth checking out, especially as we’re between A1 & 2.

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Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Playing a full loot MMO and playing on a Minecraft server with full loot are not exactly analogous.

It is the same concept in the way that swimming with sharks off the coast of South Africa is the same concept as swimming in your back yard pool with a friend wearing a shark fin.

2b2t(A Minecraft server) might actually be the most ruthless and cut throat online world known to man.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Playing a full loot MMO and playing on a Minecraft server with full loot are not exactly analogous.

It is the same concept in the way that swimming with sharks off the coast of South Africa is the same concept as swimming in your back yard pool with a friend wearing a shark fin.

2b2t(A Minecraft server) might actually be the most ruthless and cut throat online world known to man.

For sure.

Thing is, if people go in to that with an MMO mindset (aka, progression minded), they won't last long.

People go in to things like this with the mindset of short term enjoyment. Log in, have fun now, then log out. There is no real thought given to fun tomorrow, or to progression - at least not for 95% of the population.

As I said above, things like this are great, and work well in some games. They just don't work well in all genres, and an MMO that is targeted at MMO players is a situation where they do not work.

Vhaeyne

@Noaani

As a voxel game enthusiast, I have seen many attempts to turn Minecraft into an open world MMORPG. There are so many issues with Minecraft as a vessel for being such a thing that it never works out at scale. Even if it did, exploits would be rampant.
Still, there have been small servers that have gotten an open world MMORPG feel going for short periods of time.

I think the thrust is there. I myself have spent countless hours with friends working on mod setups for Minecraft to make the world more like an open world MMORPG. Minecraft is just really shitty when it comes to using computer resources efficiently. Getting more than 10 people on a highly modded server is a pipe dream.

I would love to play Minecraft with a progression minded RPG mod pack with a few hundred to a thousand people on it long term. Sadly, no matter how many physical CPU cores or how much ram I give a Minecraft server, it sucks. Otherwise, I think you would see a lot more stuff like this.

Merek

MO2's combat is more telegraphed than a fat kid winding up a punch because you cut in line at the cafeteria... But other than that, it's probably the only MMO to release in years that actually understands what an MMO should be.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani

As a voxel game enthusiast, I have seen many attempts to turn Minecraft into an open world MMORPG. There are so many issues with Minecraft as a vessel for being such a thing that it never works out at scale. Even if it did, exploits would be rampant.
Still, there have been small servers that have gotten an open world MMORPG feel going for short periods of time.

I think the thrust is there. I myself have spent countless hours with friends working on mod setups for Minecraft to make the world more like an open world MMORPG. Minecraft is just really shitty when it comes to using computer resources efficiently. Getting more than 10 people on a highly modded server is a pipe dream.

I would love to play Minecraft with a progression minded RPG mod pack with a few hundred to a thousand people on it long term. Sadly, no matter how many physical CPU cores or how much ram I give a Minecraft server, it sucks. Otherwise, I think you would see a lot more stuff like this.

This is the reason I haven't looked at the game in close to a decade. It's a fairly boring single player game imo, but can't handle decent multiplayer.

However, if this were to ever be fixed, most people that were setting a server up with the intent of emulating an MMO are likely to not go the same way 2b2t has gone.

What would really interest me if Minecraft ever did manage to get decent multiplayer going on is the ability to use it to rapidly test various rulesets. You could set a server up with full loot and another identical server without full loot, and see how each go over a set period of time.

It would - if nothing else - be very interesting.

George_Black

It's a solid nope. I cant spare enough time to properly play that game.

JustVine

George Black wrote: »

It's a solid nope. I cant spare enough time to properly play that game.

How much time would you need to play a day for it to work out do you think? Or is it more related to the gameplay loops themselves taking too long.

CROW3

It definitely takes time. The world is HUGE and until you tame a horse you’re running with limited stamina. Also, even when you get a horse it can bolt if it’s loyalty drops too low, be killed by other players or wolves, or die from taking a bad fall. Then you’re on foot again.

For some this is a nightmare. For folks like me that love open, dangerous spaces it’s a wonderful way to scratch the exploration itch.

DerToastinator

Haven't played MO2 so my opinion on that game specifically is invalid.
However, I'll leave a nice, funny and informative review on it at the end of my post.
Don't be fooled, its made by Josh Strife Hayes and although the title might suggest otherwise, he is fair and honest in his reviews. I can only recommend his content.

Now to my experience with dropping equipment on death games.
I've recently stated playing on a private WoW server called Ascension.
It let's you pick every skill, has no classes and gives you possibilities to have synergies with a lot of those skills and talents.
It also gives you the chance to decide if you wana play hard-core.
This makes you only see other hard-core players, let's you go criminal and attack anyone in your lvl range regardless of faction and enables dropping your loot and 2-3 equipment items on death. While leveling this system is cool. You may die to someone, but coming back from that loss isn't too hard. You also might win and get good loot! All in all, its fair game most of the time and the stakes are high for everyone involved. Your theorycrafting and your skill determines the outcome of an encounter.
Wich feels good! If you win, you win because of your abilities!

Now here's the catch... as soon as you reach lvl 60 you get thrown into the pool with everyone, who has already reached max lvl. Yes. Everyone. The noobs, who just reached that lvl and the sweaty no-livers, who have farmed the best gear and have backup gear for their backup gear.
Quick reminder.... you are the noob here...
As soon as you step out into the world to try to get some loot, you will get farmed.
There is no hiding and if you get caught you are dead.
Imagine playing a stealth game without the possibility to hide. You have to pray, that you don't run into a guard. That's all you can do.

The game experience goes from fun and balanced risk to getting butt-**** without lubricant real quick.
You get stronger only very slowly, if at all, and they just sell your gear and get more powerful.
You might say, that they too have to face strong opponents... but they have A. a fighting chance and B. backup-gear ready to go.
Yes, you can protect your gear with gold, but even that feels shit. You loose a lot of gold and are broke after a few deaths, depending on your farming.
That's what full loot boils down to.
You struggling to farm to get on the same lvl with others, just to get killed and having to start over. It's not ensentevising you to take a risk to get a reward. It's ensentevising you to play it safe until you are at a point where the risk doesn't matter no more and you can steamroller others. To be fair, that is more the fault of human psychology than the games fault.
If you then can not play it safe, because there are no options to do so, then the players on the bottom will eventually leave. The players on top are left thinking, that those who leave are just impatient litte pricks. I'll have to remind you: they are essentially playing another game.... and their game sucks.

I'll leave this: full loot is a cool concept. If there's no regulating force tho, the playerbase gets decided into winners and loosers. That leaves some in the dust.
They will get frustrated eventually and force them to leave.
The playerbase gets smaller until the elitists are left alone.
Then their fun is diminished, because now they don't have anyone to be superior to anymore.
In the long run. Without any regulating force. These games die.

Sathrago

George Black wrote: »

It's a solid nope. I cant spare enough time to properly play that game.

If you thought that was bad, maybe you found this part out but ill say it anyway. The skill gain on the current beta servers are at 100 times the normal speed and the books you read that say "hours" are intended to take IRL hours.

Vhaeyne

Sathrago wrote: »

If you thought that was bad, maybe you found this part out but ill say it anyway. The skill gain on the current beta servers are at 100 times the normal speed and the books you read that say "hours" are intended to take IRL hours.

It's fun like this now for playing with builds. I have tried like six builds so far. Each time thinking about what I would like to spend my time on when it takes real time to get a character online.

I don't think it's going to be too bad to become PvP viable with the game goes live.

Sathrago

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

If you thought that was bad, maybe you found this part out but ill say it anyway. The skill gain on the current beta servers are at 100 times the normal speed and the books you read that say "hours" are intended to take IRL hours.

It's fun like this now for playing with builds. I have tried like six builds so far. Each time thinking about what I would like to spend my time on when it takes real time to get a character online.

I don't think it's going to be too bad to become PvP viable with the game goes live.

Oh sure, but the main part is that the game will require a ton of time to get anything done. That was what I was gettin at lol. Everything in the game has a huge time sync and I can definitely see that as a reason why someone wouldn't want to play an otherwise "good" game.

CROW3

Yeah… after 150ish hours in, it’s fun, vast, scary, and cool to explore. That said I don’t plan on playing when it goes live. I just don’t see it being a fun enough experience with a few thousand more players to justify a monthly sub.

Xeeg

Just got MO2 over the weekend to see what it was like. Talk about a clean UI. LOL...

I was posting about nameplates and stuff from WOW and just experienced the exact opposite game design. A lot of what makes this game work is the first person mode, so you that your opponent takes up your full screen when attacking. Took a bit getting used to but I enjoy it. Not very good at it yet. Spells are simple enough and not a lot of cluttered UI or screen information. Very slick.

Actually not a lot of information at all. Game is designed to be an obtuse discovery puzzle. There were many points in the game play that I felt like quitting, but was interested enough in discovering the game systems that I persevered.

One major thing that I didn't like:

Holding shift to run, but no auto run (only auto walk)

Didn't like this because there is a lot of running over empty space in this game. Usually I use that kind of downtime to chat in the local chat, but if I have to hold shift then I can't do that. Or maybe navigating the game UI to see how stats work etc. Holding shift is boring AF. Either give us something fun to do or let us do something else. It is a GAME after all.

Maybe Ashes could implement an "auto run" feature on the main roads where your character just locks to a road path and runs until u stop it, so you can grab a smoke or something and just listen with your headphones on if someone engages on you. If you want to take the shortcut offroad you will be much faster but then you have to jump up cliffs and stuff like that.

This whole "running" dynamic is actually a huge turnoff. I know Ashes is going for the same thing with their huge world. Sure, WoW has the same thing. Getting lost, turning around, forgetting an item or material, is a HUGE time sink where you have to repeat gameplay that just isn't enjoyable. I'd rather watch a movie, or play tetris, or anything! Holding shift while steering a character for a 5 minute run back to town just feels like such a waste of time. A Roblox obby is more fun than this!

I timed how long it took to do the first 2 "quests" (kill x zombies/boards) from Morin Khur and it was about 20m from the quest giver and back. 17 of those minutes were straight running, 3 minutes of fighting. Not fun.

I am 3 days in and already at a point in the game where there doesn't appear to be anything fun or worth doing solo anymore so I joined a guild. Great decision. Game is much more fun with a guild. They have objectives and things they want to accomplish, they have crafters and are all set up, and I am happy to come along for the ride. We were just training duels with the guild at our main base location when I decided to write this. I am looking forward to some group PVP once I get better at combat and have my character built out a bit more.

The downside of this is that if I log on and no one from the guild is on, I don't really have much that I want to do. I just changed my build to fit with guild fight PVP and my character is only strong enough to fight zombies, scoundrels, and wolves. Just those 3 mobs. Anything else has killed me so far. I could go pick some gatherables or mine some ore or hit some trees. Sure, that would be helpful to the guild. But I don't really want to do that, I'd rather go play something else. Don't really feel like killing the zombies and scoundrels anymore.

Dygz

Holy Necro!
@Nagash

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Holy Necro!
Nagash

But a good one

Glad they're trying out something super different to what they're used to and are even having fun with it.

Vaknar

A friend of mine has been talking about picking up MO2 and trying it out with me. Neither of us has tried it, and we love playing MMOs together. I might just have to try it out after seeing this thread

Does anybody also play Dark and Darker? Different game, but to me it seems like it might be similar in... intensity, lol.

Xeeg

Vaknar wrote: »

A friend of mine has been talking about picking up MO2 and trying it out with me. Neither of us has tried it, and we love playing MMOs together. I might just have to try it out after seeing this thread

I sunk about 20 hours into it already. Worth a play to see what they did that is really cool, and what they did that results in a 700 person userbase. I don't see myself playing it past the first free month.

Any time you find yourself thinking "is this fun?" or "I don't want to do this anymore" you have an idea for where Ashes needs answers. Big thing for me is the wasted time running across land, which Ashes is going to replicate. Either make it fun, or make it easy for us to do other things. Requiring our complete attention with little to no input for 10m straight just sucks.

Depraved

CROW3 wrote: »

So, I’ve been playing Mortal Online II for the past six weeks or so. And completely immersed - especially thinking through how this relates back to Ashes.

If you’re not familiar with the original (I wasn’t) MO2 is a vast open-world, full loot, pvp mmo with forced 1st-person perspective, action combat, and a frankly over-the-top ‘use based’ skill-system that encourages specialization. ‘Use based’ means you increase skill as you use them. For the old school, this feels like the spiritual successor to UO (sans Richard Garriott’s creative brilliance).

So, what does this have to do with Ashes?

We’ve spent years discussing the ins and outs of world pvp, mat drops, and corruption. For me, MO2 has really helped clarify the middle ground approach Steven (et al) has taken on PvX. There is always a tangible sense of danger in MO2. Since, death has the consequence of losing everything you’re carrying (including your mount), you constantly stay aware of your surroundings. Is that a rock or a bear? Is that a player or a tree in the wind? Player interactions are tense. Cities aren’t safe, even those with guards. You can still be knifed in some shady corners. Those without guards are ruled by local guilds, or simply by how dangerous you appear.

To counter this, you craft or buy redundant gear, and keep it in the bank (which are not shared across cities). This also means that skill (both stat and twitch) becomes the arbiter of combat encounters instead of gear.

There are a lot of naked toons running around this world.

Losing everything SUCKS, but you get used to it. You find ways to mitigate this with what crafting skills you employ. Guilds become important, but also make you a target.

For Ashes, the drops on death feels like it’s going to be balanced. Enough to add risk, but not enough to be a paralytic at the city gates. Corruption feels like it will help just enough, but not overly punishing. Caravans will feel like a sensible way to mitigate risk, and be a tempting target to raid without overly detrimental consequences. After all, where the MO2 devs overtly vie for ‘the most hardcore mmo’ (and in some cases I think attempt to camouflage bad design behind ‘hardcore’), IS is clearly aware they are creating a game we want to enjoy with some hardcorishness factors. Brass tacks: It just amps my excitement for Ashes.

TL:DR: MO2 clarifies some of Ashes’ design decisions in a surprising, tangible way. It’s worth checking out, especially as we’re between A1 & 2.

I payd it a bit a while back, I hated it. so boring ugh >_>
to me, it wasn't a PVP game, it was a pve game...10 hours of pve per 10 mins of PVP

CROW3

Based on everything I’ve read since launch, Beta was a better overall experience than the actual production game.

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