My PvX != Your PvX

Basis: I prefer PvE over PvP so, in my mind, I'd like to see more balance between the systems.

Is this a fantasy, yes. I know logically that PvX for Ashes consists of a blend, a mixture if you will, of both elements. Therefore, I think that when some of us say "Ashes isn't really PvX", what we mean is that it isn't what we would think PvX would be (Equal measure of both in my opinion).

Do I want PvE only servers? No. I enjoy the risks that come with the PvP Systems in mind. Will I need a group of friends to play with because (even though I'm complimented for living in the Caravan stream) I'm a big scaredy cat when it comes to PvP? Absolutely!

All in all, I'm just trying to say that I think PvX can be considered more of a spectrum where some of us like the (in my opinion) PvP heavy version of PvX and I'm sure there are some that prefer a more PvE heavy version of PvX.

I plan to play Ashes all the same, but I had seen this topic floating around and wanted to discuss it, or share my thoughts.

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Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

When i mean guess work knowing that AoC has pvp in it, it is fair to think like most games with pvp there will be other avenues to pvp they had not discussed yet or finalized yet. Meaning while things can change they still need to finish the game and more things could be added.

IE open seas in this case, we still lack understanding of node / guild war decs (OWpvp without corruption), potential open dungeon pvp, the pvp they added to nodes when it is destroyed not controlled by corruption.

This implies that Dygz might be even more correct in calling Ashes a murderbox

I disliked the seas change, I was kinda ok with the ruins feature. But I sure as fuck hope that the dungeons and world bosses don't become pvp zones. At that point Steven better fucking change his tune and start calling the game pvp. Cause even L2 didn't have pvp zones.

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

I still wouldn't be that confident the open sea makes that big a difference for exploring and its going to be more open and not really that interesting. I could be wrong but that is what my instincts tell me.

Um. Exploring is ALWAYS interesting (except when disrupted by non-consensual PvP).

Mag7spy wrote: »

Either way as you test during the alpha when we get to the open sea part maybe you will find it won't make that much big of a deal and the general corruption and ways to avoid pvp will be fine enough, and the game worth stomaching because of it being highly fun (pve exploring stand point).

The deal will be that I'm auto-flagged as being interested in PvP when I'm not actually in the mood for PvP.
The deal will be that I'm flagged as a Combatant when I have 0 interest in being a Combatant.
And I have no way of switching to Non-Combatant.
Infinitely worse than actually being PKed with full loot is some PvPer asking,
"Why are you flagged for PvP if you don't want to PvP?"
or
"Why are you in a PvP zone if you don't want to PvP?"

Pursuing progression paths won't really be worth stomaching compared to other games that are not as PvP-centric as Ashes. The rewards will not be worth the risk of dealing with PvP. And I don't really want to be constantly thinking about Risk/PvP the way Steven wants us to.

Mag7spy wrote: »

So I hope the case scenario works out for you at least so you can enjoy it with your friends. All the other mmorpgs in development imo are a bit meh or more so on the korean side of things and making me expect the pve to be bad. Granted i still don't know enough about aoc pve.

I expect to jump in sometimes and hang out with friends.
I have exploring goals to pursue: The Ultimate Carebear Challenge
But, when I want to actually play an MMORPG, I will spend my 8+ hour game sessions in some other game. Even WoW and New World.

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

Yeah... it's fun to examine different perspectives.
Especially when trying to figure out "Who in the world would enjoy that?"
Or "How can you not enjoy that?"

Yeah - Though it always takes a LONG time for folks to even become aware of their normative assumptions, let alone then exploring someone else's assumptions. Those filters are annoyingly invisible.

This is like saying to me - hey, if you don't like nuts in your chocolate chip cookies, NiKr will bite all of the nuts out of the cookies for you and then you can eat the remnants.
Like, no thank you. I will just find some chocolate chip cookies that don't have nuts baked in. It's OK.

I'm trying - so - hard to be good here. I mean... no one wants NiKr to bite their nuts.

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

I'm trying - so - hard to be good here. I mean... no one wants NiKr to bite their nuts.

Dygz

Dygz wrote: »

Irrelevant how big the map is. My primary goal when playing any RPG is to uncover/explore the entire map as quickly as possible.
And the Open Seas is not a tiny portion of the map, like 5%... rather, it's a large portion of the map - more than 20%.

LMFAO
I didn't misread anything and I never said you gave an actual percentage.
I gave suggested percentages.
When I play MMORPGs my primary goal is to uncover the entire map as quickly as possible.
That is true for each of my alts.

You wrote: There's a whole lot of exploring to be had, and only one portion of the map that you may not fancy.
That MIGHT be OK if that one portion were only 5% of the map. But it's not. The Open Seas is more than 20% of the map. Too large a portion for it to be OK for my playstyle.

CROW3

Holycrap that made me laugh, @NiKr!

Aszkalon

NiKr wrote: »

I mean... no one wants NiKr to bite their nuts.

🙄 🙄 🙄

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Otr

NiKr wrote: »

And there's also the super vague and nebulous reason for seas being pvp of "the content is worth the risk", so in theory an explorer would want to see that kind of content for themselves. And with the entire seas being pvp - ya can't really do that, especially considering the potential costs of water mounts/ships.

And as such, when you look at the game overall (because you're interested in exploring all of it) - the game has turned into a murderbox. And you say it yourself, the seas could theoretically draw a lot of the pvpers unto themselves, which would then make those seas even more of an "instakilled" location.

It is not a "nebulous reason".
The only problem I see is that creates an imbalance in the PvX.
A full PvP area was added but not a full PvE. To be a symmetrical design, a PvE area should exist where players with a high PK value to be hunted by NPC guards, like Concord does in Eve Online when players with low standing enter high sector.

In AoC, increased PK value should put the player on divine node guards hate list.
And those guards should prevent them entering the mega catacombs generated by the divine metropolis.

Dygz

But... Steven doesn't really intend symmetrical balance when he talks about PvX.
It seems to me that he means there is a symbiotic relationship such that as much as possible PvP is always looming when we PvE. Kinda similar to how there is no difference between PvP gear and PvE gear.
And, the higher the Rewards, the higher the chances of PvP combat.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

It is not a "nebulous reason".
The only problem I see is that creates an imbalance in the PvX.
A full PvP area was added but not a full PvE.

The rewards usually come from the pve, and we know jackshit about pve of the seas, which is why I said the reason is vague and nebulous. We were simply promised that the reason is good enough to warrant a forced pvp zone.

Dygz

Well...yeah... Steven says the Rewards in the Open Seas are supposed to highly valuable compared to what's available on land.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

When i mean guess work knowing that AoC has pvp in it, it is fair to think like most games with pvp there will be other avenues to pvp they had not discussed yet or finalized yet. Meaning while things can change they still need to finish the game and more things could be added.

IE open seas in this case, we still lack understanding of node / guild war decs (OWpvp without corruption), potential open dungeon pvp, the pvp they added to nodes when it is destroyed not controlled by corruption.

This implies that Dygz might be even more correct in calling Ashes a murderbox I disliked the seas change, I was kinda ok with the ruins feature. But I sure as fuck hope that the dungeons and world bosses don't become pvp zones. At that point Steven better fucking change his tune and start calling the game pvp. Cause even L2 didn't have pvp zones.

This is AoC not L2 though and they already have pvp areas ie sea, ruins. So you just look at the potential pattern. Obviously it doesn't mean its for sure but it really wouldn't be surprising.

I don't see it as a murder box though everyone has their own context for their definition. Simply just because its pvp most likely isn't viewed as a murder box because pvp is wanted in the game. Murder box would be more akin to shadowbane where at every point in the world you can be ganked without limit.

When it comes to entering pvp areas (that are limited ie small potions of the map), Guild / node wars for OWpvp. Those are more on the side of viewed as meaningful conflict than just people being randomly pk for no reason.

Open seas will be a murder box sure, but the gameplay loop is different for that and more on the extreme side of risk. Doesn't meant everyone will attack everyone since reputation will be a thing you carry back to land. I'm all for the sea changes because it adds more interesting gameplay loops to the game. Everything being static and the same is kind of boring, and you being a pvper i see no reason for you to say you don't like the change.

Most content people do is going to be on the land I'm sure anyway. Most likely like 95% of your time if not more will simply just be on land for general players.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I still wouldn't be that confident the open sea makes that big a difference for exploring and its going to be more open and not really that interesting. I could be wrong but that is what my instincts tell me.

Um. Exploring is ALWAYS interesting (except when disrupted by non-consensual PvP).

Mag7spy wrote: »

Either way as you test during the alpha when we get to the open sea part maybe you will find it won't make that much big of a deal and the general corruption and ways to avoid pvp will be fine enough, and the game worth stomaching because of it being highly fun (pve exploring stand point).

The deal will be that I'm auto-flagged as being interested in PvP when I'm not actually in the mood for PvP.
The deal will be that I'm flagged as a Combatant when I have 0 interest in being a Combatant.
And I have no way of switching to Non-Combatant.
Infinitely worse than actually being PKed with full loot is some PvPer asking,
"Why are you flagged for PvP if you don't want to PvP?"
or
"Why are you in a PvP zone if you don't want to PvP?"

Pursuing progression paths won't really be worth stomaching compared to other games that are not as PvP-centric as Ashes. The rewards will not be worth the risk of dealing with PvP. And I don't really want to be constantly thinking about Risk/PvP the way Steven wants us to.

Mag7spy wrote: »

So I hope the case scenario works out for you at least so you can enjoy it with your friends. All the other mmorpgs in development imo are a bit meh or more so on the korean side of things and making me expect the pve to be bad. Granted i still don't know enough about aoc pve.

I expect to jump in sometimes and hang out with friends.
I have exploring goals to pursue: The Ultimate Carebear Challenge
But, when I want to actually play an MMORPG, I will spend my 8+ hour game sessions in some other game. Even WoW and New World.

When I say stomach I mean as in the opens seas not being worth exploring and it just being a boring area compared to other places in the game. So you feel like you aren't really missing out on too much with that content. I don't mean accepting the pvp and struggling past it.

Dygz

Again, murderbox is really Steven’s term.
My term is “too PvP-centric for me”.
Naval combat similar to ArcheAge is a hard cut-off.

After Kickstarter, Steven would say, “Ashes is not going to be a murderbox.”
When I asked him to name some MMORPGs that are a murderbox, he said he couldn’t because he doesn’t play games like that.

I asked him how he knows Ashes won’t be a murderbox if he can’t even name any.

Then he said L2 could sometimes be a murderbox, Corruption should fix that because it’s harsher than Karma.

I then told him that EvE and ArcheAge are murderboxes to me.
He said, “But only if you go into the high PvP zones, right?”
I replied, “I don’t know. I don’t play those games because they are too PvP-centric for me.”
Steven said, “Oh. Well…Ashes will be different because Ashes does not have any zoned PvP. It just has the one Corruption flagging system across the entire map.”

So, again, it doesn’t really matter what the label is.
Ashes just now has a ruleset I don’t want to play. Because I don’t want to be flagged for free-for-all PvP when I’m not in the mood for free-for-all PvP.

And, too much of the map is auto-consent PvP just for logging in or just for entering the zone.
And that is not a ruleset I condone for RPGs.

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

When I say stomach I mean as in the opens seas not being worth exploring and it just being a boring area compared to other places in the game. So you feel like you aren't really missing out on too much with that content. I don't mean accepting the pvp and struggling past it.

Uh. What???!!!???!!!
Any part of the map is worth exploring.
There are no boring parts of a map if I haven’t been there yet.
Especially not a UE5 map.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

When I say stomach I mean as in the opens seas not being worth exploring and it just being a boring area compared to other places in the game. So you feel like you aren't really missing out on too much with that content. I don't mean accepting the pvp and struggling past it.

Uh. What???!!!???!!!
Any part of the map is worth exploring.
There are no boring parts of a map if I haven’t been there yet.
Especially not a UE5 map.

If the sea is flat and generic and not really interesting or much to do id say you have less fun exploring that compared to land with things to do on it? Like if you see a small part of the sea you pretty much have seen everything.

Dygz

Again, there is no part of a map that is “not really interesting” if I haven’t explored there before. Especially not a UE5 map.
And Ashes has underwater content.
Which means it’s either going to be interesting because it’s a spot on The Seas where I can submerge and explore underwater or it’s going to be interesting because it’s a spot on The Seas where I can’t submerge beneath the surface of the water.

“If you see a small part of the sea, you have pretty much seen everything” is not an actual thing.

Ludullu

Oh right, I completely forgot that we'll have underwater swimming. Now I'm real fucking curious how they'll design combat in the seas. Can we attack someone who dove under water? How would targeting them even work? Are they completely safe and it's the best way to travel across the seas, if you're trying to avoid pvp?

Hell, do we even still have underwater swimming? It's been years since they've shown it, right?

Otr

Dygz wrote: »

Well...yeah... Steven says the Rewards in the Open Seas are supposed to highly valuable compared to what's available on land.

It makes sense to say so because that is what Eve was doing and probably Dune: Awakening will do too in the deep desert.
They copy each-other.
But Steven will still have the Alpha 2 and hear the voices of many players and streamers.

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

It is not a "nebulous reason".
The only problem I see is that creates an imbalance in the PvX.
A full PvP area was added but not a full PvE.

The rewards usually come from the pve, and we know jackshit about pve of the seas, which is why I said the reason is vague and nebulous. We were simply promised that the reason is good enough to warrant a forced pvp zone.

The rewards from the mega catacombs would be closer to a PvE experience.
And there are no pure PvP rewards in AoC, like drops generated by the game because we fight each-other. GW2 has such rewards. If you stay on the WvW map, you get drops as if you would participate in the PvE events on those maps.
Player vs Player vs NPC boss, if Steven presents it as PvX, I cannot put it into a pure PvP category. But the area is PvP and if he promised PvE dungeons which only 1% of players can defeat, I think those should provide equivalent drops as the open seas.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

When I say stomach I mean as in the opens seas not being worth exploring and it just being a boring area compared to other places in the game. So you feel like you aren't really missing out on too much with that content. I don't mean accepting the pvp and struggling past it.

Uh. What???!!!???!!!
Any part of the map is worth exploring.
There are no boring parts of a map if I haven’t been there yet.
Especially not a UE5 map.

If the sea is flat and generic and not really interesting or much to do id say you have less fun exploring that compared to land with things to do on it? Like if you see a small part of the sea you pretty much have seen everything.

Archeage had an ocean that was somewhat worth exploring.

Perhaps more under the ocean than on top, but both were still worth it.

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