I love vertical progression. Being rewarded for your time and effort feels great. If I get rekt by someone who is higher level and has better gear than me, then I have a reference for what can be achieved, and I can work towards and look forward to becoming stronger myself. In an RPG, skill should be an important, but not the sole factor determining the outcome of a fight.
Yes, this exactly. Imagine working a job and having zero room to grow. Just a constant treadmill... no matter how good you get you simply will not get a raise in pay and you'll never take on more responsibility. Vertical progression is part of the genre... it's one of the things that makes an RPG.
I love vertical progression. Being rewarded for your time and effort feels great. If I get rekt by someone who is higher level and has better gear than me, then I have a reference for what can be achieved, and I can work towards and look forward to becoming stronger myself. In an RPG, skill should be an important, but not the sole factor determining the outcome of a fight.
Vertical progression is good. Gear being the main focus of vertical progression with Ashe's Node and Caravan system is bad **under the premise that gear level is too much of a grind for new/returning players when majority of the player base is max level and keep finding ways to increase their gear score to further separate them from anyone catching up to them in any meaningful way.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Maybe i am boring when i state it like this. But guess what. See if i care.
Can We Please just for F~XXX~ING ONCE in our Lifetime,
play an MMO which "ACTUALLY" forces* us, more-or-less* , to play together ?
As a Team ?
I am ... ... ... ... ... cr~aaaving ... ... ... ... ... ... ... an MMO which forces me to care about my fellow Players. Which forces me to give my all.
Which forces me to see the whole Game as not just an empty Joke.
I "HOPE" i am just to negative.
I "HOPE" i am just seeing things to negative and wrong.
I HOPE the current States of today's MMO's is just a Player-based Symptom and NOT a Fault of the Design of the Games, which are the MMO's.
But i feel deep inside me - i might be wrong.
I ... ... ...
... ... ... i don't want to be wrong anymore.
I finally want to be in an MMO, which "FORCES" the Players to band together. For both PvE AND PvP.
Monster-Coin System come. Node-Sieges come. Caravan-Gameplay come. You ... ... ... you ARE ... ... ...
... ... ... LONG overdue.
It has been FIFTEEN YEARS AND ABOVE.
MMO's ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... give us the Gameplay we always wanted.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 17
I think Nodes, Sieges, and Caravans will strongly encourage players to play together.
The dynamic world means there's more incentive to interact. And it helps that we can find many our fellow citizens who play at the same times we do in Open World Housing.
"Uh. What happened to the Town that used to be over there?"
"Destroyed during the Siege of Appleton!"
"Who is the current Monarch of the Northern Castle?"
"Nagash, the Lich King!"
Not sure why mentioning games that aren't fun to play (in my opinion) but retain a player base because they have a sunk-cost fallacy addiction to these games disproves anything I said.
Lost Ark has this issue. WoW has this issue as well. People play the expansion and quit. They are disillusioned with horizontal progression and a shiny new dungeon that gives them... what? a higher gear score? And then once they get their gear score to max then they quit? Is that why WoW's PvP scene is in shambles?
Once again, the band-aid fix is that the devs are keeping player retention by "giving more shit" for players to "feel good" and get dopamine of "hehe number went up" instead of fun gameplay.
its not an issue when only a small minority dislikes it.
I love vertical progression. Being rewarded for your time and effort feels great. If I get rekt by someone who is higher level and has better gear than me, then I have a reference for what can be achieved, and I can work towards and look forward to becoming stronger myself. In an RPG, skill should be an important, but not the sole factor determining the outcome of a fight.
Vertical progression is good. Gear being the main focus of vertical progression with Ashe's Node and Caravan system is bad **under the premise that gear level is too much of a grind for new/returning players when majority of the player base is max level and keep finding ways to increase their gear score to further separate them from anyone catching up to them in any meaningful way.
If you minimize the impact of gear, then you will have level 50 pking left and right in cheap level 10 gear
changing one thing in the game affects other things. you cant look at things in isolation.
gear should matter, and when 2 players have the same gear, then other things matter. a level shouldn't shouldn't have a chance against a level 40.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Best thing Blizzard put into the Game since many Years - > Dragonflying.
It is way faster - plus one has to concentrate a little bit on using the different Flying Abilities of the flying Mount. Finally you are not in Danger of falling asleep midflight anymore.
Even in horizontal progression you have vertical gear progression. Horizontal progression is the way in which you build a toon but vertical progression is the way in which you arm a toon. Its a false fallacy that horizontal progression is some sort of remedy to vertical progression. In true horizontal progression you don't even have character levels, just skills to unlock. You would still work for better attainment in terms of armour and weapons. In true vertical progression you have character levels and the level dictates the power more than the armour. The fact armour only adds 50% to a toon in ashes shows the armour trend is horizontal. The progression is still vertical due to character levels though.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 19
There can also be horizontal gear progression.
Changing damage types and offering different types of damage mitigation, rather than increasing power.
There can also be horizontal gear progression.
Changing damage types and offering different types of damage mitigation, rather than increasing power.
I mean, this is an inherent part of every MMO I've played - you always want to get gear or have a build to maximise yourself in different directions.
Quite honestly, if doing this actually matters, it is just another part of vertical progression. On the other hand, if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
I love vertical progression. Being rewarded for your time and effort feels great. If I get rekt by someone who is higher level and has better gear than me, then I have a reference for what can be achieved, and I can work towards and look forward to becoming stronger myself. In an RPG, skill should be an important, but not the sole factor determining the outcome of a fight.
Vertical progression is good. Gear being the main focus of vertical progression with Ashe's Node and Caravan system is bad **under the premise that gear level is too much of a grind for new/returning players when majority of the player base is max level and keep finding ways to increase their gear score to further separate them from anyone catching up to them in any meaningful way.
If you minimize the impact of gear, then you will have level 50 pking left and right in cheap level 10 gear
changing one thing in the game affects other things. you cant look at things in isolation.
gear should matter, and when 2 players have the same gear, then other things matter. a level shouldn't shouldn't have a chance against a level 40.
It should matter, yes. But it shouldn't be so astronomically grindy that you just out-gear other people with how many forms of variable progression there are in Ashes. If I play the game for 2 years, a person just starting out shouldn't have to worry about grinding for 8 months to catch up to the power creep of my gear score.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Not sure why mentioning games that aren't fun to play (in my opinion) but retain a player base because they have a sunk-cost fallacy addiction to these games disproves anything I said.
Lost Ark has this issue. WoW has this issue as well. People play the expansion and quit. They are disillusioned with horizontal progression and a shiny new dungeon that gives them... what? a higher gear score? And then once they get their gear score to max then they quit? Is that why WoW's PvP scene is in shambles?
Once again, the band-aid fix is that the devs are keeping player retention by "giving more shit" for players to "feel good" and get dopamine of "hehe number went up" instead of fun gameplay.
its not an issue when only a small minority dislikes it.
It's not about if people dislike it or not, it's about if it's good for the game.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Not sure why mentioning games that aren't fun to play (in my opinion) but retain a player base because they have a sunk-cost fallacy addiction to these games disproves anything I said.
Lost Ark has this issue. WoW has this issue as well. People play the expansion and quit. They are disillusioned with horizontal progression and a shiny new dungeon that gives them... what? a higher gear score? And then once they get their gear score to max then they quit? Is that why WoW's PvP scene is in shambles?
Once again, the band-aid fix is that the devs are keeping player retention by "giving more shit" for players to "feel good" and get dopamine of "hehe number went up" instead of fun gameplay.
its not an issue when only a small minority dislikes it.
It's not about if people dislike it or not, it's about if it's good for the game.
I think a lot of it has to do with the balance of power that your gear gives you.
I remember in Asheron's Call it was probably like 90% player and 10% gear. Gear basically only gave you Armour, though some may have buffed magic skills.
That was my first MMO and it was a shock when I went to DAoC.
What do you mean I don't get to distribute my own stat points?! Leveling up simply gives you pts in all your atts?!
In AC you literally spent your XP to raise your atts.
I think a lot of it has to do with the balance of power that your gear gives you.
I remember in Asheron's Call it was probably like 90% player and 10% gear. Gear basically only gave you Armour, though some may have buffed magic skills.
That was my first MMO and it was a shock when I went to DAoC.
What do you mean I don't get to distribute my own stat points?! Leveling up simply gives you pts in all your atts?!
In AC you literally spent your XP to raise your atts.
I had a similar experience with ragnarok, my first mmorpg. when I played other mmorpg I was like whattt you don't get to distribute your stats and skill points? shit game hhaha but ended up liking a few mmorpg.
regarding gear power, there are multiple reasons why stat matters, and why when players think its all skills, it isn't. ill elaborate later I have some things to do, but I've commented on that before (also waiting for lloyd to answer)
Not sure why mentioning games that aren't fun to play (in my opinion) but retain a player base because they have a sunk-cost fallacy addiction to these games disproves anything I said.
Lost Ark has this issue. WoW has this issue as well. People play the expansion and quit. They are disillusioned with horizontal progression and a shiny new dungeon that gives them... what? a higher gear score? And then once they get their gear score to max then they quit? Is that why WoW's PvP scene is in shambles?
Once again, the band-aid fix is that the devs are keeping player retention by "giving more shit" for players to "feel good" and get dopamine of "hehe number went up" instead of fun gameplay.
its not an issue when only a small minority dislikes it.
It's not about if people dislike it or not, it's about if it's good for the game.
how do you determine whats good for the game?
It's difficult. That's why game development is hard. But I would say it's probably something that creates longevity in the game. It's the balance of giving the players what they want and what will make the game have longevity. The players may want to be stronger and have better gear, but that doesn't mean you should give it to them. But at the same time, if you don't give them "good enough" gear, then the player-base won't stay. See what I'm saying?
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
I think a lot of it has to do with the balance of power that your gear gives you.
I remember in Asheron's Call it was probably like 90% player and 10% gear. Gear basically only gave you Armour, though some may have buffed magic skills.
That was my first MMO and it was a shock when I went to DAoC.
What do you mean I don't get to distribute my own stat points?! Leveling up simply gives you pts in all your atts?!
In AC you literally spent your XP to raise your atts.
I actually just miss character progression. Where I spent X amount of time on this character and they're that strong--versus--I got 5 extras of this dungeon's gear sets, so I'll just trade it to my alt. And then devs covering up the flaw with making things "soulbound" or "roster-bound" or "account-bound". And some of that is to stop RMTing and what not, but to me it just seems like the systems are band-aid fixes.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Horizontal great progression is terrible and especially terrible for a PvP game with a focus on competing and contesting pretty much everything. Rewards need to be worth the effort and time. The moment you make gear progression horizontal, the game would die after 3 months.
I'm glad Intrepid has a clear vision and won't listen to people who are completely clueless. Who's going to spend hours fighting for a boss, probably acumulating a ton of exp debt that they'll have to grind for a a few days to recover in order to hopefully... get a piece of gear that won't make them more powerful? LMAO.
Of COURSE gear should be the main focus in a group PvP oriented game. Otherwise nobody would PvP, any other type of reward would be worthless and nobody would have any motivation to fight for it.
This is the biggest EX~AAAAAAAAAAAAAACTLY i posted in quite a bit of time - and i knew i posted it a few Times in the recent Weeks.
People want extrinsic Motivation for their Efforts and Time spend. They don't want something that "gives" them nothing. Cosmetics can be a nice Bait - but if you spend Hours of Hours into PvP everyday or something like that - you want to feel somehow rewarded regarding Gear and it's Battlepower or something.
At least to a certain Extent. No need to get transformed into Omni-Man and unstoppable steamroll hundred of other Players.
A while ago, WoW did it good and nicely. And despite how grindy it was -> "Vanilla" did it the best from all Times, because PvP was not made into a Shxtshow back then.
I dream of the Day when i am assembled with all other Members of my hopefully many-Members-Guild on the high Wall of our Town, Village or Metropolis - and look down into the Landscape.
We all collected all of our PvP- and PvE-Sets we wanted to complete since over half a Year or something. Dunno how long it will take.
Our Guildleaders praise our Efforts, our Victories and our Willpower not to give up when we suffered Defeat sometimes. Ashes is complete and will hopefully still grow a LOT and long in the Future still - but we managed to get our Foot down and fortified our Place in the World.
The Mayor is satisfied - (hopefully) - our Barony looks great. Maybe - hopefully - all our Guildmembers get rewarded for being allowed to possess a Freehold from time to time - in Case there is never enough of them for all who want to have one.
Then just as we are confident we could take on the World because we held ourselves steady against World-Events, Monster-Coin Raids, Node-Sieges and maybe a few Player-"Armies" who wanted to sack our Caravans on a daily Basis,
-> Boom ! either new Content forces us into Action - or maybe the Fact that we never set Foot into the Underdark /Underground of Verra before - or never until now engaged into Piracy OR fighting said Piracy in the Ocean and Sea's who might be very nearby our Home Node.
And maybe Sir Steven let me have a cool "undead Pet" like a decaying Thrall despite the specific One not being available anymore i think. Hopefully a bloody, or rotten-green Re-Skin or something like that.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmeh I dunno about an "incentive for PvP" in terms of powerprogression.
There was a point in my life in which I would have totally agreed with that sentiment.
But now my life has changed, my preferences have changed and I started to detest grinds which are unnecessarily long. I did a 180° and wasn't always like that though, so of course I can relate to those who still prefer this style.
These are not MMO's but they are games with competitive PvP: Sea of Thieves & Heroes of the Storm
They are different but what do both games have in common because of the fact that there is no item-progression in the game? You can come back whenever you like and jump right back in, into the "maxlevel PvP".
And there is just a certain appeal to that. A beauty to it.
Knowing that you do not have to earn the right to be on the same level as a perma-player, by playing for +1 or +2 months straight, pardon me -> I meant GRIND for it.
Grinding is not playing anymore when one started to dislike it.
Which is tough and hard to define. A little grind is cool I guess. Feels sportsman ship like.
But at some point WoW started to totally exaggerate it and then it started to become annoying.
Where am I going with this; My suggestion is to have several types of servers in the game.
These are just placeholder idea's I have but lets go with
+ The 3 months itemlevel rise server. Every 3 months a new itemlevel cap comes in the game which can be farmed for players to raise their overall strenght in PvP and PvE.
and then a
+ 6 months version
and
+ No itemlevel raise server version, as in; Once you have reached the maxlevel and obtained the first maxlevel gear in all slots, you are good to go FOREVER.
This comes with the pro & con of never being more powerful even after god knows how many years, than someone who played also reached maxlevel and got their hands on absolutely equal itemlevel gear.
But you will also never be weaker as other players, no matter how long you take a break from the game.
And for even more hardcore players, make servertypes who update every 2 months or even every single month and hopefully players will know which type fits their reallife situation the best.
Worrys about a too fractured community will be cute and unnecessary -> once Ashes releases it will EASILY blow all other outdated MMO's out of the water and the stampede on Intrepits servers will mirror the Noah's flood anyway.
When it comes to PvP especially I feel one, if not THE main problem is that there are never enough options for PvP in the game.
One thing which for example I would have utterly liked to see in WoW back then, was simply that if I go into a battleground as "a random", that I cannot be paired with an opposing pool of hordeplayers that has players within it that joined AS A GROUP.
Ergo they have teamspeak probably and other kinds of unfair advantages over casuals & randoms which make the BG an uphill battle, up to a onesided slaughter right from the getgo.
Why do I, a not very social person, have to do the same things just to stay on the same level?
>> Fastforward>>
People will not become social if they don't want to.
They wont forsake their casual ways just to win in a battleground.
And so sooner or later they realize they have been made into "the mobs" for the sweatlords by the companys design and are intentionally NOT PAIRED with the playerpool of their own appropriate, mirroring interests and skillset, but are used to entertain some freaks just so that the freaks can feel like kings.
... while those are probably losers IRL too.
The last +13 years in WoW's random bg's were utter shitshows to me and I was not even playing, I was just watching other people play as a random, which I knew. I am very glad I did not miss anything of value.
Some games PvP either dies quicker as a consequence to this, or it becomes suuuuuuuuuper ugly and toxic.
So, this is my most primary suggestion here Intrepit.
Bring in servertypes who right off the bat tell a person that " This is the servertype for you, if you play about... [8,6,4,2,1] hour/s a day. "
And make it so that if sweatlords who think themself smart and register on the servertype that is only 1 hour a day, totally regret it by standing before their own characters apex quickly and not being able to somehow have an advantage over the type of player for which the servers has innitially been made.
People should know their place I feel. I mean they will do so one way or the other anyway, after some time.
I just hope it won't come with lots of rage and eternal ragequits without a return to AoC, because they know that they can never match the nolife'ness of some people who just so happen to have that "MMO phase" in their lifes currently.
Or to say it in good old terms - even if this idea does not make it - never make it so that even the sweatiest dweller of Verra, can defeat more than 2 casuals at once, but never 3 at the same time.
And then they might look okay "for all ages and demographics".
If the powershow becomes too much and people lose their nodes over it left and right in ways that makes them feel stupid for having played the game... this could come back to bite AoC quickly.
Sea of Thieves and Heroes of the Storm were non-subcription games.
Which means these types of games can allow themself to piss of parts of their playerbase on a daily basis.
But not subscription games.
Not if players feel like they are losing ingame AND irl-money for playing, just to feel stupid in the end.
This is why I quit WoW too. Too far behind and I could never catch up quickly enough.
And I could also never get this addicted enough to do it.
One day WoW's servers will inevitably shut down.
And I won't have a breakdown then. Cuz I always positioned myself right in the best distance to the game.
Unlike others who will pretty much jump into the noose then, when they have nothing anymore that can support their ego.
Ashes can finance itself also by not doing this absolutely unneeded stuff to have things stay pre-order.
NEVER do timelimited. NEVER. NEEEEEEEEEVER.
Have all kinds of cosmetics for reallife money, "shop cosmetics" to say it in WoW terms, always available for all times so that people do not feel stupid for
A: having missed out on them before they knew the game, and
B: have the absolute maximum of articles in the game on which to spend their money on
As an alternative to just the subscription model money.
Sea of Thieves seems to do quite well without a subscription model for years but they also update their
"Pirate Emporium" regularly, for all those people who support the game by buying most if not all of them each and everytime.
And SoT lives without itemlevel progression.
The entire games "progression" is a purely cosmetic one!
People play for the experience which I have utterly come to love.
While i get all your Points - > People won't be motivated to do PvP for long if there is no sweet, sweet Reward in Stats, Prestige, Whatever, for participating into Node-PvP, Caravan-PvP, "Guerillia-PvP", Naval-PvP, etc. etc.
I don't even dare to imagine what the Developers would all to need constantly to keep a significant Chunk of the Masses of PvP'ers interested then.
Not sure why mentioning games that aren't fun to play (in my opinion) but retain a player base because they have a sunk-cost fallacy addiction to these games disproves anything I said.
Lost Ark has this issue. WoW has this issue as well. People play the expansion and quit. They are disillusioned with horizontal progression and a shiny new dungeon that gives them... what? a higher gear score? And then once they get their gear score to max then they quit? Is that why WoW's PvP scene is in shambles?
Once again, the band-aid fix is that the devs are keeping player retention by "giving more shit" for players to "feel good" and get dopamine of "hehe number went up" instead of fun gameplay.
its not an issue when only a small minority dislikes it.
It's not about if people dislike it or not, it's about if it's good for the game.
how do you determine whats good for the game?
It's difficult. That's why game development is hard. But I would say it's probably something that creates longevity in the game. It's the balance of giving the players what they want and what will make the game have longevity. The players may want to be stronger and have better gear, but that doesn't mean you should give it to them. But at the same time, if you don't give them "good enough" gear, then the player-base won't stay. See what I'm saying?
then something that a small minority dislikes can still be good for the game...
lots of people like p2w games...they even make more money than other games xD...the issue is when you have a non p2w game then turn it into p2w...but then you lose players but you earn whales that keep the game alive...its kind of a gamble tho.
Horizontal great progression is terrible and especially terrible for a PvP game with a focus on competing and contesting pretty much everything. Rewards need to be worth the effort and time. The moment you make gear progression horizontal, the game would die after 3 months.
I'm glad Intrepid has a clear vision and won't listen to people who are completely clueless. Who's going to spend hours fighting for a boss, probably acumulating a ton of exp debt that they'll have to grind for a a few days to recover in order to hopefully... get a piece of gear that won't make them more powerful? LMAO.
Of COURSE gear should be the main focus in a group PvP oriented game. Otherwise nobody would PvP, any other type of reward would be worthless and nobody would have any motivation to fight for it.
While i get all your Points - > People won't be motivated to do PvP for long if there is no sweet, sweet Reward in Stats, Prestige, Whatever, for participating into Node-PvP, Caravan-PvP, "Guerillia-PvP", Naval-PvP, etc. etc.
I don't even dare to imagine what the Developers would all to need constantly to keep a significant Chunk of the Masses of PvP'ers interested then.
I keep imagining you 2 seated next to each other, but you guys decide to talk to each other here in the forums instead T_T
Comments
Yes, this exactly. Imagine working a job and having zero room to grow. Just a constant treadmill... no matter how good you get you simply will not get a raise in pay and you'll never take on more responsibility. Vertical progression is part of the genre... it's one of the things that makes an RPG.
Vertical progression is good. Gear being the main focus of vertical progression with Ashe's Node and Caravan system is bad **under the premise that gear level is too much of a grind for new/returning players when majority of the player base is max level and keep finding ways to increase their gear score to further separate them from anyone catching up to them in any meaningful way.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Maybe i am boring when i state it like this. But guess what. See if i care.
Can We Please just for F~XXX~ING ONCE in our Lifetime,
play an MMO which "ACTUALLY" forces* us, more-or-less* , to play together ?
As a Team ?
I am ... ... ... ... ... cr~aaaving ... ... ... ... ... ... ... an MMO which forces me to care about my fellow Players. Which forces me to give my all.
Which forces me to see the whole Game as not just an empty Joke.
I "HOPE" i am just to negative.
I "HOPE" i am just seeing things to negative and wrong.
I HOPE the current States of today's MMO's is just a Player-based Symptom and NOT a Fault of the Design of the Games, which are the MMO's.
But i feel deep inside me - i might be wrong.
I ... ... ...
... ... ... i don't want to be wrong anymore.
I finally want to be in an MMO, which "FORCES" the Players to band together. For both PvE AND PvP.
Monster-Coin System come. Node-Sieges come. Caravan-Gameplay come. You ... ... ... you ARE ... ... ...
... ... ... LONG overdue.
It has been FIFTEEN YEARS AND ABOVE.
MMO's ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... give us the Gameplay we always wanted.
The dynamic world means there's more incentive to interact. And it helps that we can find many our fellow citizens who play at the same times we do in Open World Housing.
"Uh. What happened to the Town that used to be over there?"
"Destroyed during the Siege of Appleton!"
"Who is the current Monarch of the Northern Castle?"
"Nagash, the Lich King!"
its not an issue when only a small minority dislikes it.
If you minimize the impact of gear, then you will have level 50 pking left and right in cheap level 10 gear
changing one thing in the game affects other things. you cant look at things in isolation.
gear should matter, and when 2 players have the same gear, then other things matter. a level shouldn't shouldn't have a chance against a level 40.
Best thing Blizzard put into the Game since many Years - > Dragonflying.
It is way faster - plus one has to concentrate a little bit on using the different Flying Abilities of the flying Mount. Finally you are not in Danger of falling asleep midflight anymore.
Changing damage types and offering different types of damage mitigation, rather than increasing power.
I mean, this is an inherent part of every MMO I've played - you always want to get gear or have a build to maximise yourself in different directions.
Quite honestly, if doing this actually matters, it is just another part of vertical progression. On the other hand, if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
It should matter, yes. But it shouldn't be so astronomically grindy that you just out-gear other people with how many forms of variable progression there are in Ashes. If I play the game for 2 years, a person just starting out shouldn't have to worry about grinding for 8 months to catch up to the power creep of my gear score.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
It's not about if people dislike it or not, it's about if it's good for the game.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
how do you determine whats good for the game?
I remember in Asheron's Call it was probably like 90% player and 10% gear. Gear basically only gave you Armour, though some may have buffed magic skills.
That was my first MMO and it was a shock when I went to DAoC.
What do you mean I don't get to distribute my own stat points?! Leveling up simply gives you pts in all your atts?!
In AC you literally spent your XP to raise your atts.
I had a similar experience with ragnarok, my first mmorpg. when I played other mmorpg I was like whattt you don't get to distribute your stats and skill points? shit game hhaha but ended up liking a few mmorpg.
regarding gear power, there are multiple reasons why stat matters, and why when players think its all skills, it isn't. ill elaborate later I have some things to do, but I've commented on that before (also waiting for lloyd to answer)
It's difficult. That's why game development is hard. But I would say it's probably something that creates longevity in the game. It's the balance of giving the players what they want and what will make the game have longevity. The players may want to be stronger and have better gear, but that doesn't mean you should give it to them. But at the same time, if you don't give them "good enough" gear, then the player-base won't stay. See what I'm saying?
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
I actually just miss character progression. Where I spent X amount of time on this character and they're that strong--versus--I got 5 extras of this dungeon's gear sets, so I'll just trade it to my alt. And then devs covering up the flaw with making things "soulbound" or "roster-bound" or "account-bound". And some of that is to stop RMTing and what not, but to me it just seems like the systems are band-aid fixes.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
I lowkey miss it </3
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Remember why it failed, all of You who were there. Remember what made it into Sh~*PEEP* ^.^;"
Pay to win, huh ?
Never a good Idea. Never.
This is the biggest EX~AAAAAAAAAAAAAACTLY i posted in quite a bit of time - and i knew i posted it a few Times in the recent Weeks.
People want extrinsic Motivation for their Efforts and Time spend. They don't want something that "gives" them nothing. Cosmetics can be a nice Bait - but if you spend Hours of Hours into PvP everyday or something like that - you want to feel somehow rewarded regarding Gear and it's Battlepower or something.
At least to a certain Extent. No need to get transformed into Omni-Man and unstoppable steamroll hundred of other Players.
A while ago, WoW did it good and nicely. And despite how grindy it was -> "Vanilla" did it the best from all Times, because PvP was not made into a Shxtshow back then.
I dream of the Day when i am assembled with all other Members of my hopefully many-Members-Guild on the high Wall of our Town, Village or Metropolis - and look down into the Landscape.
We all collected all of our PvP- and PvE-Sets we wanted to complete since over half a Year or something. Dunno how long it will take.
Our Guildleaders praise our Efforts, our Victories and our Willpower not to give up when we suffered Defeat sometimes. Ashes is complete and will hopefully still grow a LOT and long in the Future still - but we managed to get our Foot down and fortified our Place in the World.
The Mayor is satisfied - (hopefully) - our Barony looks great. Maybe - hopefully - all our Guildmembers get rewarded for being allowed to possess a Freehold from time to time - in Case there is never enough of them for all who want to have one.
Then just as we are confident we could take on the World because we held ourselves steady against World-Events, Monster-Coin Raids, Node-Sieges and maybe a few Player-"Armies" who wanted to sack our Caravans on a daily Basis,
-> Boom ! either new Content forces us into Action - or maybe the Fact that we never set Foot into the Underdark /Underground of Verra before - or never until now engaged into Piracy OR fighting said Piracy in the Ocean and Sea's who might be very nearby our Home Node.
And maybe Sir Steven let me have a cool "undead Pet" like a decaying Thrall despite the specific One not being available anymore i think. Hopefully a bloody, or rotten-green Re-Skin or something like that.
: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Decaying_Thrall
There was a point in my life in which I would have totally agreed with that sentiment.
But now my life has changed, my preferences have changed and I started to detest grinds which are unnecessarily long. I did a 180° and wasn't always like that though, so of course I can relate to those who still prefer this style.
These are not MMO's but they are games with competitive PvP:
Sea of Thieves & Heroes of the Storm
They are different but what do both games have in common because of the fact that there is no item-progression in the game?
You can come back whenever you like and jump right back in, into the "maxlevel PvP".
And there is just a certain appeal to that. A beauty to it.
Knowing that you do not have to earn the right to be on the same level as a perma-player, by playing for +1 or +2 months straight, pardon me -> I meant GRIND for it.
Grinding is not playing anymore when one started to dislike it.
Which is tough and hard to define. A little grind is cool I guess. Feels sportsman ship like.
But at some point WoW started to totally exaggerate it and then it started to become annoying.
These are just placeholder idea's I have but lets go with
+ The 3 months itemlevel rise server. Every 3 months a new itemlevel cap comes in the game which can be farmed for players to raise their overall strenght in PvP and PvE.
and then a
+ 6 months version
and
+ No itemlevel raise server version, as in; Once you have reached the maxlevel and obtained the first maxlevel gear in all slots, you are good to go FOREVER.
This comes with the pro & con of never being more powerful even after god knows how many years, than someone who played also reached maxlevel and got their hands on absolutely equal itemlevel gear.
But you will also never be weaker as other players, no matter how long you take a break from the game.
And for even more hardcore players, make servertypes who update every 2 months or even every single month and hopefully players will know which type fits their reallife situation the best.
Worrys about a too fractured community will be cute and unnecessary -> once Ashes releases it will EASILY blow all other outdated MMO's out of the water and the stampede on Intrepits servers will mirror the Noah's flood anyway.
When it comes to PvP especially I feel one, if not THE main problem is that there are never enough options for PvP in the game.
One thing which for example I would have utterly liked to see in WoW back then, was simply that if I go into a battleground as "a random", that I cannot be paired with an opposing pool of hordeplayers that has players within it that joined AS A GROUP.
Ergo they have teamspeak probably and other kinds of unfair advantages over casuals & randoms which make the BG an uphill battle, up to a onesided slaughter right from the getgo.
Why do I, a not very social person, have to do the same things just to stay on the same level?
>> Fastforward>>
People will not become social if they don't want to.
They wont forsake their casual ways just to win in a battleground.
And so sooner or later they realize they have been made into "the mobs" for the sweatlords by the companys design and are intentionally NOT PAIRED with the playerpool of their own appropriate, mirroring interests and skillset, but are used to entertain some freaks just so that the freaks can feel like kings.
... while those are probably losers IRL too.
The last +13 years in WoW's random bg's were utter shitshows to me and I was not even playing, I was just watching other people play as a random, which I knew.
Some games PvP either dies quicker as a consequence to this, or it becomes suuuuuuuuuper ugly and toxic.
So, this is my most primary suggestion here Intrepit.
Bring in servertypes who right off the bat tell a person that
" This is the servertype for you, if you play about... [8,6,4,2,1] hour/s a day. "
And make it so that if sweatlords who think themself smart and register on the servertype that is only 1 hour a day, totally regret it by standing before their own characters apex quickly and not being able to somehow have an advantage over the type of player for which the servers has innitially been made.
People should know their place I feel. I mean they will do so one way or the other anyway, after some time.
I just hope it won't come with lots of rage and eternal ragequits without a return to AoC, because they know that they can never match the nolife'ness of some people who just so happen to have that "MMO phase" in their lifes currently.
Or to say it in good old terms - even if this idea does not make it - never make it so that even the sweatiest dweller of Verra, can defeat more than 2 casuals at once, but never 3 at the same time.
And then they might look okay "for all ages and demographics".
If the powershow becomes too much and people lose their nodes over it left and right in ways that makes them feel stupid for having played the game... this could come back to bite AoC quickly.
Sea of Thieves and Heroes of the Storm were non-subcription games.
Which means these types of games can allow themself to piss of parts of their playerbase on a daily basis.
But not subscription games.
Not if players feel like they are losing ingame AND irl-money for playing, just to feel stupid in the end.
This is why I quit WoW too. Too far behind and I could never catch up quickly enough.
And I could also never get this addicted enough to do it.
One day WoW's servers will inevitably shut down.
And I won't have a breakdown then. Cuz I always positioned myself right in the best distance to the game.
Unlike others who will pretty much jump into the noose then, when they have nothing anymore that can support their ego.
Ashes can finance itself also by not doing this absolutely unneeded stuff to have things stay pre-order.
NEVER do timelimited. NEVER. NEEEEEEEEEVER.
Have all kinds of cosmetics for reallife money, "shop cosmetics" to say it in WoW terms, always available for all times so that people do not feel stupid for
A: having missed out on them before they knew the game, and
B: have the absolute maximum of articles in the game on which to spend their money on
As an alternative to just the subscription model money.
Sea of Thieves seems to do quite well without a subscription model for years but they also update their
"Pirate Emporium" regularly, for all those people who support the game by buying most if not all of them each and everytime.
And SoT lives without itemlevel progression.
The entire games "progression" is a purely cosmetic one!
People play for the experience which I have utterly come to love.
While i get all your Points - > People won't be motivated to do PvP for long if there is no sweet, sweet Reward in Stats, Prestige, Whatever, for participating into Node-PvP, Caravan-PvP, "Guerillia-PvP", Naval-PvP, etc. etc.
I don't even dare to imagine what the Developers would all to need constantly to keep a significant Chunk of the Masses of PvP'ers interested then.
then something that a small minority dislikes can still be good for the game...
lots of people like p2w games...they even make more money than other games xD...the issue is when you have a non p2w game then turn it into p2w...but then you lose players but you earn whales that keep the game alive...its kind of a gamble tho.
agreed ;3
I keep imagining you 2 seated next to each other, but you guys decide to talk to each other here in the forums instead T_T