How hard do you think it should be to get rid of corruption?

First, please read https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption. The overall philosophy is summed up by this: There is no incentive to go corrupt... There's zero incentive for a player to go red. It actually gives you negatives for doing that- very significant downsides. – Steven Sharif

Based on a post by @NiKr here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/449170#Comment_449170

NiKr wrote: »

True, but it could be one 10-12s mob that removes 30/100 corruption instead of two 6s mobs that each remove 15/100.

It dawned on me that we have VERY, VERY different ideas of how hard it should be to get rid of corruption.

Using Nikr's numbers at face value, that's 7 mobs that take six seconds each to get rid of corruption, or 42 seconds + time between pulls. He later clarified with this, which is less insane to me:

NiKr wrote: »

My preferred balancing for corruption gain/removal is "if your first PK was on an equally-leveled opponent deep in a dungeon - removing it should take just a bit longer than it would take that person to come back to that location"

And it would go somewhat exponentially upwards from there.

My Take

I would like to see it based on death penalty XP debt amount, and then modified by the PK value of the player, and of course the level difference of the killer and the target.

The death penalties for corrupted players are 4x that of a non-combatant, and based on the 3-4% xp debt given to a non-combatant upon death, it sounds reasonable to me that you need 4x 3-4% XP of any given level to grind away your corruption before any other modifiers. I'll just round it to 15% for the sake of simplicity.

The only quick way to get rid of corruption should be from dying. 1 death is fine for the first kill on an equal levelled player with 0 PK value. That gives around the target 15% xp in the form of debt. Adding in a high PK value and ganking a lower level player, it should require 2, 3 or even more deaths to get rid of corruption, with 15% xp debt accrued each time of course.

Another important factor to remember is the bounty hunting system. Corruption has to last long enough that Bounty Hunters have time to see you on the world map and get there in time with some friends, and we don't have much fast travel in the game.

So how long does 15% xp translate to? It'll depend on the level, but if we go with the 225 hour to max level goal that Intrepid has put out, that's 4.5 hours per level, or around 40 minutes for 15% XP. With the usual levelling speed curve we see in MMORPGs, that's probably a minute at lvl 1 and an hour or more of grinding XP at level 50.

Edit: And of course we have to test it, but the 15% XP is a good starter I think. Maybe we end up with 10% as a more fair target. We'll see.

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Comments

Nerror

They could always introduce a $5 fine for going corrupt, immediately charged to the credit card.

blat

Have we forgotten that these corrupted players haven't actually murdered someone IRL?

They've killed another player in a competitive MMO.
How about just fight back and kill them instead?

It's getting ridiculous.

One small but important caveat: I am all for harsh punishment for PKs where there is a significant level difference. That is where corruption should be used to punish.

Otr

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

What if we introduce some kind of resource, like an essence, which could be used to craft some amulets or consumable or improve gear when fighting against corrupted players?

Lol so the existing penalties:
- increased exp loss
- increased drop penalties
- chance of dropping gear
- appear on map for Bounty Hunters
- stat dampening (already goes too far IMO)

.. aren't already enough for you?

I suggested this new kind of resource to be available for the Red player too, to help him against the BH.
The stat dampening does not happen when the Red fights against the BH.

Corrupted player's combat penalties do not apply when battling bounty hunters.[40]

... which might be an issue because the BH can bring regular green players to help him out.
I think the solution would be that green players attacking a red some time after the kill happened to be considered low level Bounty Hunters, unless they have already some progression as bounty hunters. In that case they should never perceive any red with stat dampening (except when the red moves or fights against mobs)

CROW3

blat wrote: »

Have we forgotten that these corrupted players haven't actually murdered someone IRL?

Seems like an unfounded assumption. Some of these folks....

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

you can still give the loot back on your own. no need a system for that. although it would be complicated to figure out who the pk killed and looted.

I already said, the bag with stolen good would have a name on it.

To streamline it even more anything you loot from a player corpse could be in a bundle, that you need the "stolen goods" bag for. And that bundle is the thing that has the name of the corpse. This way even multiple victims could be addressed.

Depraved wrote: »

but anyways, giving the loot back doesn't mean you are doing something good. imagine this scenario. i pk someone, take their shit, lose corruption, then that person comes back and pk me, they get their shit back, now u, a bh, kills that person and then returns the loot to me. are you really helping the "innocent victim" here and doing something good?

If the PKer managed to launder the goods and then the victim looted those off of him - those are now stolen goods of the PKer.

Vigilantism is cool and all (and I totally support it), but its only reward is the stuff that you can get from the corpse, if you manage to launder it yourself afterwards.

Azherae wrote: »

This is just adding more incentive values to an already overbloated equation.

One that we still are missing over half of the variables for.

You're just 'writing in all your own values' at this point. You can't use micro-incentives to model anything, particularly in a game where 'Stolen Glint' exists.

Yeah, I know

There's nothing else to talk about, so might as well keep laying out my own ideas. Others will poke holes in them and I'll think of something better.

I don't expect my ideas to be implemented cause obviously Steven wants something different.

Otr wrote: »

The feeling that is doing something good might fade after 3-4 months. Depends how often this work has to be done. Too often is like a job. We should ask a policeman how he feels.

That depends on the person. Also, like I said, it'd be an in-game system. The BH is simply doing his job and the job has its own rewards. The BH became a BH BECAUSE he wanted those rewards.

And fucking green can go around killing PKers and helping others. The BH system will have its own progression and some type of reward system. So BHs will go for those, as default.

Otr wrote: »

What if we introduce some kind of resource, like an essence, which could be used to craft some amulets or consumable or improve gear when fighting against corrupted players?
So when the green gets killed, in the process of resources being transferred into the ashes, some essence from the corrupted player could be transferred into the green's inventory.

Then the player could trade this to the BH in return to his lost resources.

The same or similar resource could get also the corrupted player when fights a BH, to get better at fighting against them.

Imo this just slows down the hunting process and puts even more burden on the victim. It also doesn't guarantee that the loot will get returned, because the BH would need to find the victim when they're online and trade. This could maybe be done in the same system I'm proposing (the victim gives up the essence and the BH gets it if he trades in the loot), but then we're just giving buffs to people who supposedly should already be strong enough, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten the job.

And making PKers stronger against BHs is definitely something I'd be against. There's already a fairly high chance that BHs won't be able to do shit against PKers who're part of a group. Making the PKer themselves even stronger definitely wouldn't help the case.

Otr

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

What if we introduce some kind of resource, like an essence, which could be used to craft some amulets or consumable or improve gear when fighting against corrupted players?
So when the green gets killed, in the process of resources being transferred into the ashes, some essence from the corrupted player could be transferred into the green's inventory.

Then the player could trade this to the BH in return to his lost resources.

The same or similar resource could get also the corrupted player when fights a BH, to get better at fighting against them.

Imo this just slows down the hunting process and puts even more burden on the victim. It also doesn't guarantee that the loot will get returned, because the BH would need to find the victim when they're online and trade. This could maybe be done in the same system I'm proposing (the victim gives up the essence and the BH gets it if he trades in the loot), but then we're just giving buffs to people who supposedly should already be strong enough, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten the job.

And making PKers stronger against BHs is definitely something I'd be against. There's already a fairly high chance that BHs won't be able to do shit against PKers who're part of a group. Making the PKer themselves even stronger definitely wouldn't help the case.

I am not dismissing your system. I actually like it even though it might seem at first glance a bit complicated. But for players could feel great.
Note that the presence of a feature should imply that is needed.
For example the bags with different shapes, if those were added to protect the gatherers against potential PK-ers, it means that the balance will be so that PK-ers will not be deterred enough by other systems.
(As long as we have not yet seen the game I can make such statements. Very soon we will have more concrete info, even though not everything might be present.)

So, if PK-ing will not be deterred enough intentionally with the corruption balancing, then I would like to have some additional features which would make it fun for both sides. Because I don't see PK-ing a bad thing. Only that it can drive players away if that can be done too frequently.

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Otr

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

blat

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

Otr

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

IS also mentioned poachers:

... and maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Land_management

Maybe guild wars and node wars will be frequent.

blat

Otr wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

IS also mentioned poachers:

... and maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Land_management

Maybe guild wars and node wars will be frequent.

Agreed.
Tbh it seems a bit broken to me that someone can just rock up and start fishing from the same node as you.. and then just carry on while you fire shots at them, daring you to take the corruption penalties.

Mag7spy

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

IS also mentioned poachers:

... and maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Land_management

Maybe guild wars and node wars will be frequent.

Agreed.
Tbh it seems a bit broken to me that someone can just rock up and start fishing from the same node as you.. and then just carry on while you fire shots at them, daring you to take the corruption penalties.

Not really broken, broken would be when there are no rules at play for any consequences and people choose violence for every option. Its not really realistic to be attacking someone for anything they they do, even in a pvp oriented mmorpg game.

It would lead to a game unfun for most even more so, you will have your avenues for retaliation guild / node decs. Though they will most likely be delayed in response, your instant option would be corruption.

blat

Mag7spy wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

IS also mentioned poachers:

... and maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Land_management

Maybe guild wars and node wars will be frequent.

Agreed.
Tbh it seems a bit broken to me that someone can just rock up and start fishing from the same node as you.. and then just carry on while you fire shots at them, daring you to take the corruption penalties.

Not really broken, broken would be when there are no rules at play for any consequences and people choose violence for every option. Its not really realistic to be attacking someone for anything they they do, even in a pvp oriented mmorpg game.

It would lead to a game unfun for most even more so, you will have your avenues for retaliation guild / node decs. Though they will most likely be delayed in response, your instant option would be corruption.

Well I'm not ruling out there being other examples of "broken", I'm just saying this very specific example feels broken, to me, is all.

Otr

blat wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

IS also mentioned poachers:

... and maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Land_management

Maybe guild wars and node wars will be frequent.

Agreed.
Tbh it seems a bit broken to me that someone can just rock up and start fishing from the same node as you.. and then just carry on while you fire shots at them, daring you to take the corruption penalties.

Not really broken, broken would be when there are no rules at play for any consequences and people choose violence for every option. Its not really realistic to be attacking someone for anything they they do, even in a pvp oriented mmorpg game.

It would lead to a game unfun for most even more so, you will have your avenues for retaliation guild / node decs. Though they will most likely be delayed in response, your instant option would be corruption.

Well I'm not ruling out there being other examples of "broken", I'm just saying this very specific example feels broken, to me, is all.

My first feeling was the same. Now I am convinced peaceful gatherer only guilds will get war declarations often from other guilds who doesn't like them. Unless they cooperate somehow and get protection.

Mag7spy

blat wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

IS also mentioned poachers:

... and maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Land_management

Maybe guild wars and node wars will be frequent.

Agreed.
Tbh it seems a bit broken to me that someone can just rock up and start fishing from the same node as you.. and then just carry on while you fire shots at them, daring you to take the corruption penalties.

Not really broken, broken would be when there are no rules at play for any consequences and people choose violence for every option. Its not really realistic to be attacking someone for anything they they do, even in a pvp oriented mmorpg game.

It would lead to a game unfun for most even more so, you will have your avenues for retaliation guild / node decs. Though they will most likely be delayed in response, your instant option would be corruption.

Well I'm not ruling out there being other examples of "broken", I'm just saying this very specific example feels broken, to me, is all.

Cause you are looking at it from a purely pvp lens over general society imo. If i get there first it should be mine and i should be able to do something about it because they are stealing it. Over the resources in this area are shared between players so stealing is not possible.

That would be between your own nodes citizens even more so and carry a bit more loyalty, you than can expand that to nodes that are tied together by a parent where it should be shared but less of a connection.

Further expanding that to nodes not part of your parent can lead to a lot more conflict and nodes you can actually go to war with. Be it you don't like them or 2 many people are gathering your mats and you want to do something about it.

We still need to see how guild dec works of course, but overall corruption is there for more impulse if you feel it is worth it on "murdering" someone pretty much.

With their wording they make things pretty clear in how they want friction to be, its not suppose to be a full on pvp mindset with people racing to get everything by any means necessary. The further you go from your node, the more increased friction most likely will end up happening with pvp.

So in context of the game it feels pretty much on point and not broken to me. Items are shared, if you want to steal you will have the option to kill them. And they may fight back if it is really something that valuable.

Depraved

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

IS also mentioned poachers:

... and maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Land_management

Maybe guild wars and node wars will be frequent.

Agreed.
Tbh it seems a bit broken to me that someone can just rock up and start fishing from the same node as you.. and then just carry on while you fire shots at them, daring you to take the corruption penalties.

go to their node and ruin their shit xD

blat

Depraved wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

blat wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

How frequently should a player experience attempts to be killed as green in a week, while playing 4-6 hours / day? Or should I ask hoe many times in a 4-6 hours play session?

Across the entire server of 15-50k? Any given green would probably die 2-3 times a week, if that.

Seems a good number for me if they can balance it like that.
I'll take it as an average and assume some will die more often, depending on where they play.

And depending on how they act. Eg: Wiki mentions resources like fishing will exist in "community resource nodes until depleted" so that sounds like another player could poach the spot while you're fishing it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing

Shame we potentially have to incur corruption just to defend a resource but at least we have that option, I guess.

IS also mentioned poachers:

... and maybe apprehending or removing poachers that are over hunting a certain species could be helpful to the health of the land
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Land_management

Maybe guild wars and node wars will be frequent.

Agreed.
Tbh it seems a bit broken to me that someone can just rock up and start fishing from the same node as you.. and then just carry on while you fire shots at them, daring you to take the corruption penalties.

go to their node and ruin their shit xD

Well I'll be doing that anyway but if I'm fishing then they're my fish.

Aszkalon

blat wrote: »

Have we forgotten that these corrupted players haven't actually murdered someone IRL?

Why is this Line so funny ? Ahh i know. Because it has nothing to do with their Behaviour ingame

hahahahahahah.

I personally hope a corrupted Player WITHOUT one to several Bounty-Hunters nearby is not an easy Target. I know corrupted Players get weaker and weaker the more their Corruption rises, right ?

But if the remaining People around are STILL to much of a bunch of Wusses or Pacifists to bring a Playerkiller down, then i think they might kinda deserve their fate.

Imagine a full handful Group of People let for example let a single Person bully them for Hours or all Day long. The World of Verra is a bit of a Battlefield and kinda everywhere so.

If you constantly refuse to fight back, then maybe You are not really made for that World.

Dripyula

Whatever the final model will be, I do hope a tutorial window will open ingame for when ANYTHING happens for the first time to a player. Even corruption and with an explaination for how to get rid of it.

If just "passing time" is one of these conditions then this could become a problem for justice?

Imagine a stealthclass player just having to wait in a random location ingame while being absolutely & utterly invisible than "Rogue's" for example become... the actually most distrustworthy class to be around.

Nice immersion actually!!

Complete carmo should be hard to reach though. I hope whatever Hunters/Rangers will be in the game can have an animal compagnion that can track by scent for example. And that they can smell... corruption.

We gotta keep the hunt interesting after all, ey?

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