Why the Cleric Archetype is AOC's most important Archetype and Cannot Fail.

Historically the 2 main classes that have always been in short supply in MMO's have been tanks and healers and even between these 2, tanks are considered the more appealing class type for most players. Ashes is a PvX game, meaning PvE and PvP are very much intertwined. Clerics are absolutely needed in both in order to create an atmosphere where groups can excel in both. My worry is that currently, there is not enough agency of choice on class play within the toolkit of this 1 and only healing class to entice enough players to roll clerics. The result is group dynamics as a whole will suffer and the playing experiences of all players will suffer, not just clerics. It won't be fun as a tank when there isn't enough healing around to sustain against a boss. It won't be fun as a dps if there isn't enough healing around to prevent you from getting gibbed in PvP. It won't be fun to any group when they can't do any kind of content because they have to wait around until the healer roles are filled. And while you can say the inverse of this to other archetypes, those archetypes again are much more in abundance and less relied on in group dynamics.

This is because while healing has appeal to some players, other archetypes generally have greater appeal to more players. Typically, tanks get the glory in PvE and DPS get the glory in PvP while healers by nature are not intuitive to be the superstar class. This is fine, however to counterbalance that, MMO's have typically offered a variety of healing class types to appeal to niche's more then healing itself. The mobile healer, the tanky healer, the HOT healer, the hybrid DOT damage healer, the utility healer, the melee focus fighter-healer, the spell damage castor hybrid healer. These are all healer kits that fulfill healing fantasy types - not simply 1 or 2 spells that somewhat deviate a core healbot toolkit. Through MMO's offering this agency of choice in a variety of healing classes, it offers a variety of ways for a player to fulfill their desired healing kit fantasy. The resto druid would be incredibly fun to someone that would choose to make that class fantasy their "main" while the same player would feel a holy paladin as the last class fantasy in a game they would want to play. I am worried about this lack of choice not only hurting the Cleric Archetype but AoC's group dynamics as a whole, which will incredibly lean on the Cleric Archetype more so then any other archetype in the game.

Ashes has 1 healing archetype, and while it may be possible to implement some of the above into your niche gameplay, you are fundamentally limited into how much of the above you can incorporate regardless of your sub class and your augments. On top of that - while the Cleric showcase was a good take on a healer - I think most people would agree it pales in comparison to both Ranger and Fighter, if not the Mage as well. I see a variety of engaging heal abilities in the cleric's kit, which is great. However it lacks an incredible amount of both utility and offensive abilities from both a castor and especially melee focus. If the cleric archetype only offers anecdotal abilities to support these additional healing kits of player healing fantasy builds, then healing in ashes will fail because there are no additional classes that can fill those desired roles. I hope AoC recognizes the need to offer a diversity of choice within the cleric toolkit even at the risk of more deviation through subclasses compared to other classes because it is absolutely needed in order to support group dynamics of all classes as a whole.

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Chicago

kanersen wrote: »

Historically the 2 main classes that have always been in short supply in MMO's have been tanks and healers and even between these 2, tanks are considered the more appealing class type for most players. Ashes is a PvX game, meaning PvE and PvP are very much intertwined. Clerics are absolutely needed in both in order to create an atmosphere where groups can excel in both. My worry is that currently, there is not enough agency of choice on class play within the toolkit of this 1 and only healing class to entice enough players to roll clerics. The result is group dynamics as a whole will suffer and the playing experiences of all players will suffer, not just clerics. It won't be fun as a tank when there isn't enough healing around to sustain against a boss. It won't be fun as a dps if there isn't enough healing around to prevent you from getting gibbed in PvP. It won't be fun to any group when they can't do any kind of content because they have to wait around until the healer roles are filled. And while you can say the inverse of this to other archetypes, those archetypes again are much more in abundance and less relied on in group dynamics.

This is because while healing has appeal to some players, other archetypes generally have greater appeal to more players. Typically, tanks get the glory in PvE and DPS get the glory in PvP while healers by nature are not intuitive to be the superstar class. This is fine, however to counterbalance that, MMO's have typically offered a variety of healing class types to appeal to niche's more then healing itself. The mobile healer, the tanky healer, the HOT healer, the hybrid DOT damage healer, the utility healer, the melee focus fighter-healer, the spell damage castor hybrid healer. These are all healer kits that fulfill healing fantasy types - not simply 1 or 2 spells that somewhat deviate a core healbot toolkit. Through MMO's offering this agency of choice in a variety of healing classes, it offers a variety of ways for a player to fulfill their desired healing kit fantasy. The resto druid would be incredibly fun to someone that would choose to make that class fantasy their "main" while the same player would feel a holy paladin as the last class fantasy in a game they would want to play. I am worried about this lack of choice not only hurting the Cleric Archetype but AoC's group dynamics as a whole, which will incredibly lean on the Cleric Archetype more so then any other archetype in the game.

Ashes has 1 healing archetype, and while it may be possible to implement some of the above into your niche gameplay, you are fundamentally limited into how much of the above you can incorporate regardless of your sub class and your augments. On top of that - while the Cleric showcase was a good take on a healer - I think most people would agree it pales in comparison to both Ranger and Fighter, if not the Mage as well. I see a variety of engaging heal abilities in the cleric's kit, which is great. However it lacks an incredible amount of both utility and offensive abilities from both a castor and especially melee focus. If the cleric archetype only offers anecdotal abilities to support these additional healing kits of player healing fantasy builds, then healing in ashes will fail because there are no additional classes that can fill those desired roles. I hope AoC recognizes the need to offer a diversity of choice within the cleric toolkit even at the risk of more deviation through subclasses compared to other classes because it is absolutely needed in order to support group dynamics of all classes as a whole.

agree with almost all of this, the main concern i have is, in the current state, as someone that enjoys healing, The cleric does not look fun to play , in my opinion it looks clustered and has way to many abilities, would need literally 30 key binds for spells that all seem to do the same thing, they need to add more reaction based gameplay, spells giving procs for insta casts off crits or something along those lines, and if we are only getting one healer class, they need to be able to spec into different healer roles, For example, hots, mobility, tank healing, pvp healing etc. I am worried that the secondary classes will not give enough flavor to really change up how the class is played, i don't think a cleric will turn into a druid or a shaman as we know them just based on a secondary archetype.

The cleric in alpha 1 was a great example of what a healer class should be, hots, dps, mobility, obviously it was way overtuned and healers should not be 1v5 in pvp but being able to solo dps, solo heal, move whilst healing are all things that make playing healer enjoyable and i feel like they have gone in the oppisite direction of this in the latest cleric show case. I would guess as time goes on we will get more heal classes in expansions but as of right now i agree the fighter / mage/ ranger all look alot more fun to play

Depraved

kanersen wrote: »

Aszkalon wrote:

The absolute Boldness and Arrogance in this Title alone ... .... ... ... ...

... ... ... ... while i can not act like i don't see any Point - it sounds SO. BAD. when i remember what happened in World of WoW-Token-Craft ... ... ...

Healers ?
FXXX Healers is what i "ALMOST" want to say.

No offence but the only arrogance i've seen in this thread I started to get constructive conversation going, is yours. I'm not sure how you interpret my post on giving the player base a diversity of choice in healing options, to making clerics overpowered. This thread is about fulfilling class fantasy for potential healers in the game and not about power tuning.

However, you are obviously very angry about healers in general, if not life in general - i'm just not sure what that has to do with my post. I suggest perhaps taking a break from posting and step away from the keyboard.

Also, proper sentence formation and punctuation is your friend, as well as everyone elses that has to read your comments, whether they want to or not.

azkalon is always roleplaying

Gizban

Dygz wrote: »

Ranger and Fighter demos were more in-depth demos than Mage, Tank and Cleric.

Typically, the Trinity is Tank, Healer, Support, I think.

In RPGs, typical Party is Melee, Healer, Mage, (Traps/Scout/Crits)
In MMORPGs, typical Party is Tank, Healer, Mage, DPS
With Ashes, Classes mean every character in an 8-person group could be some form of Cleric.

I feel peeps are really going to be let down when the understand that there are NOT 9001 classes. There are 8 "archetypes" that you can spice up with a secondary.
A secondary of Cleric on a Ranger is not going to make a Ranger shoot healing arrows, nor is it going to transform a DPS main into a support main.
I don't understand how people can still carry on with this silliness.

edit:

Ashes wiki: The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[14]

So an 8 man of Rangers with secondary as Cleric aren't getting new Healing Arrows.

Spif

Something to keep in mind is the summoner. While there is only one main heal class, there is also the summoner/cleric that can (assuming good class design/balance) also main heal.

This also works for the tank, although the tanks level of responsibility in a party is usually a bit higher than the healers, so it's harder to swap into that role.

I'd expect that most groups would actually want one healer and an off-healer too, even in PvE, if heal aggro is at all large. And two full healers in PvP.

I actually do expect "healing arrows" from a Ranger/Cleric. But just one, on a cooldown. And if not that, definitely healing traps. But you're right that a Ranger/Cleric won't be a support main. It'll be an off-healer at best. Or someone with a good emergency heal.

Dygz

pyreal wrote: »

I feel peeps are really going to be let down when the understand that there are NOT 9001 classes. There are 8 "archetypes" that you can spice up with a secondary.
A secondary of Cleric on a Ranger is not going to make a Ranger shoot healing arrows, nor is it going to transform a DPS main into a support main.
I don't understand how people can still carry on with this silliness.

So an 8 man of Rangers with secondary as Cleric aren't getting new Healing Arrows.

Who said anything about transforming a DPS main to a Healer main by choosing Cleric Seccondary Archetype??
You are the only one who mentioned Healing Arrows as far as I know.
That being said... Cleric does have a Life School of Augments.

kanersen

Spif wrote: »

Something to keep in mind is the summoner. While there is only one main heal class, there is also the summoner/cleric that can (assuming good class design/balance) also main heal.

This also works for the tank, although the tanks level of responsibility in a party is usually a bit higher than the healers, so it's harder to swap into that role.

I'd expect that most groups would actually want one healer and an off-healer too, even in PvE, if heal aggro is at all large. And two full healers in PvP.

I actually do expect "healing arrows" from a Ranger/Cleric. But just one, on a cooldown. And if not that, definitely healing traps. But you're right that a Ranger/Cleric won't be a support main. It'll be an off-healer at best. Or someone with a good emergency heal.

I'm pretty sure Steven's on the record saying that only Clerics and Tanks would be able to Main-heal and Main-tank. If they are not going to allow augments to drastically alter the sub-class for these 2 archetypes to fill class fantasy's for clerics and tanks, I hope they revisit this and allow Summoner's the capability to both main heal and main tank as a Necromancer and Brood Warden. Additionally it would make sense to allow the Soulweaver to main heal and the Dreadnaught to main tank.

Electronn

pyreal wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Ranger and Fighter demos were more in-depth demos than Mage, Tank and Cleric.

Typically, the Trinity is Tank, Healer, Support, I think.

In RPGs, typical Party is Melee, Healer, Mage, (Traps/Scout/Crits)
In MMORPGs, typical Party is Tank, Healer, Mage, DPS
With Ashes, Classes mean every character in an 8-person group could be some form of Cleric.

I feel peeps are really going to be let down when the understand that there are NOT 9001 classes. There are 8 "archetypes" that you can spice up with a secondary.
A secondary of Cleric on a Ranger is not going to make a Ranger shoot healing arrows, nor is it going to transform a DPS main into a support main.
I don't understand how people can still carry on with this silliness.

edit:

Ashes wiki: The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[14]

So an 8 man of Rangers with secondary as Cleric aren't getting new Healing Arrows.

Steven has said Secondary Archetype can dramatically change your character's role and your active abilities.

https://youtu.be/rrD4RCTbxds

16:40

If Secondary Archetype can change your role, that's sounds like a distinct class rather than "spicing up" the primary archetype.

My prediction is that in some cases it will be more dramatic than others, and in some cases dramatic enough to change the character's role.

As compelling as your feelings are, I give more credence to Steven's comments.

EDIT:
Also, regarding the wiki page you linked, the fact that the secondary archetype doesn't provide additional skills is moot when, "Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class," to quote your wiki link.

Dygz

Secondary Archetype can change roles significantly, especially sub-roles, like Evasion Tank v Mitigation Tank
- just not enough to replace the need for each of the 8 Primary Archetypes in an 8-person group.

But, truly, we are at the Show Don't Tell point.

Spif

As far as I have heard/read, the summoner is supposed to completely shift into the role of the secondary. To me that means a summoner/cleric should be very close to the healing ability of a cleric/x, although with a summoner's flair.

Similar to the the way the summoner/ranger is likely to summon archers and be an RDPS, or a summoner/rogue is likely to have stabby summons and deliver MDPS.

Aszkalon

" Why the Summoner Archetype is AOC's most important Archetype and Cannot Fail ... ... "

Dygz

Spif wrote: »

As far as I have heard/read, the summoner is supposed to completely shift into the role of the secondary. To me that means a summoner/cleric should be very close to the healing ability of a cleric/x, although with a summoner's flair.

Which dev quote states that?

blat

Spif wrote: »

As far as I have heard/read, the summoner is supposed to completely shift into the role of the secondary. To me that means a summoner/cleric should be very close to the healing ability of a cleric/x, although with a summoner's flair.

Similar to the the way the summoner/ranger is likely to summon archers and be an RDPS, or a summoner/rogue is likely to have stabby summons and deliver MDPS.

I'm pretty sure I've read near enough the opposite;
no other primary archetype will compare in healing ability to a cleric primary, although the secondary archetype will have a significant impact and offer some healing capability.

EDIT:

Cleric classes are the only classes that can fill the role of a primary healer. Classes with Cleric as a secondary archetype will have self-healing benefits as well as limited healing benefits to other players.

No one is going to fill the role of a primary healer other than the healer archetype; but there will be secondary class options that you can select, which will provide you with some level of sustainability under restoration, most of that will be centralized to yourself, especially in the case of a Paladin. – Steven Sharif

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cleric

SarahCo

I don't think healer is the most important. I also don't think healers are always the most scarce. Healers actually tend to have the lowest skill ceiling in MMOs, and tanks tend to have the highest because they are often conductors of fights and have to manage all or most of the mechanics in PVE.

Tank is the most important.

Saabynator

TopWombat wrote: »

Got to remember though that for an 8 player group, you should only need 1 tank and 1 cleric. So the ratio isn't as high compared to WoW where you want 1 tank and 1 healer for a 5 man group.

I'm hoping though that for both tank and cleric, that the sub-classes provide the variety of tank and healing options that you normally get in other fully fledged classes in other games.
Something like this:
cleric/tank - adds a bubble to your heals that absorbs future damage
cleric/rogue - adds hots to your heals
cleric/ranger - increases chance of critical heal
cleric/mage - increase aoe effects of heals
cleric/cleric - increases healing amount
cleric/bard - gives target a damage increase
cleric/fighter - increases healing power of follow up heals on target
cleric/summoner - pet that also heals your target

I was under the impression, that it is 5 or 6 man groups?

Depraved

SarahCo wrote: »

I don't think healer is the most important. I also don't think healers are always the most scarce. Healers actually tend to have the lowest skill ceiling in MMOs, and tanks tend to have the highest because they are often conductors of fights and have to manage all or most of the mechanics in PVE.

Tank is the most important.

nah bards will be the most important class in aoc, followed by the cleric :P
I'm sure you will be able to win pvps without a tank, but not without healers and bards

blat

SarahCo wrote: »

I don't think healer is the most important. I also don't think healers are always the most scarce. Healers actually tend to have the lowest skill ceiling in MMOs, and tanks tend to have the highest because they are often conductors of fights and have to manage all or most of the mechanics in PVE.

Tank is the most important.

Agree tank is most important & scarce. Healing can be a pretty chill experience when in the mood, although it can be incredibly demanding EG in a higher-end PvP scenario.

Tank is actually one of the primary archetypes that has me most intrigued... and that's despite being a pvp-leaning player.
It sounds like they're making real efforts to re-think the tank dynamics - particularly in a PvP context, and generally with the different types of tank builds: evasion, control, mitigation.

I think it could make for an interesting secondary at least.
Have a read of the Wiki:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank

Dygz

Saabynator wrote: »

I was under the impression, that it is 5 or 6 man groups?

Balanced for standard encounter to be 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.

Aszkalon

kanersen wrote: »

Why the Cleric Archetype is AOC's most important Archetype and Cannot Fail.

It seems and looks like the Cleric is the only "strong"/direct Healer in the Game, doesn't it ?
Revive/Rezz People ? Okay.
Heal Tons of Damage ? Okay.

Maybe we can get the Bard to have a Rezz/Revive-Ability, too - but not as often or as many People as a Cleric can. Would make the Bard very cool but also would not take the Importance from a Cleric away.

Electronn

Aszkalon wrote: »

kanersen wrote: »

Why the Cleric Archetype is AOC's most important Archetype and Cannot Fail.

It seems and looks like the Cleric is the only "strong"/direct Healer in the Game, doesn't it ?
Revive/Rezz People ? Okay.
Heal Tons of Damage ? Okay.

Maybe we can get the Bard to have a Rezz/Revive-Ability, too - but not as often or as many People as a Cleric can. Would make the Bard very cool but also would not take the Importance from a Cleric away.

You probably know that they plan to have Scrolls of Resurrection, so anyone can rez (I disagree with this btw). But Clerics will have a specific rez ability that will be more powerful and convey additional benefits.

Aside from the scrolls, I personally would not want to start giving the rez ability to other classes. I'm biased b/c I plan to play a Cleric, but that said, I think loss of class identity is a major problem with MMOs. Once you start giving every class every ability, thus eliminating what makes your class special, it's completely removes the fun of playing (for me anyway). 10 years later and I'm still bitter about WoW giving battle rez to non-druid classes. DK with a battle rez, ffs.

I realize you said give Bards a weaker rez, but still, it would start to erode a core part of the Cleric identity. This would mean anyone can use a scroll, but the Bard has a more powerful rez than that. Possibly if you got rid of the scrolls, gave the bard and maybe summoner a weak rez, then maybe.

Aszkalon

Tacquito wrote: »

You probably know that they plan to have Scrolls of Resurrection, so anyone can rez (I disagree with this btw). But Clerics will have a specific rez ability that will be more powerful and convey additional benefits.

Fxxx. Thanks for this Information, Tacquito. I had actually no Idea about this. Hopefully the Scrolls will be very limited to what for "Advantages" it will have over having no Scrolls at all.

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