Max players per guilds

Githal wrote: »

So if there are no guild benefits as you say, then they just need to add some.
Like the game is pre alpha 2, it is yet to get balanced. And this here what i am writing is not so much to chat with the community, but to bring AOC atention to the problem at hand.
Ofc discussing it with the community will help them see both sides since my personal opinion is based. And seeing some counter arguements is always good.

But the discussion should not resolve around "this dont exist", but more like... "if this exist it may help with..."

And this would work just fine with what I said. But unless those benefits are so damn big that castles turn into even bigger snowballs than they'll already be (which are huge btw, cause taxes from 1/5 of the map IS GINORMOUS) - the mega guilds won't care.

Even if somehow there are such huge benefits - all the mega guild needs to do is to reimburse the other sub-guilds with other stuff. Members of a castle-owning guild get some uber buff? Balance that out by using taxes money to buy members of sub-guilds better gear and/or enhancements on their current one.

And outside of some form of buffs I don't really see how anything else can be seen as such a huge benefit that reducing guilds from 300 to 100 would be impactful in any way.

You're suggesting to make billionaires split their money into more offshore banks in hopes of those banks failing once in a while, while I'm suggesting to let those billionaires keep their money in one bank, but tax THE EVERLIVING FUCK OUT OF THEM, if they do.

Both our suggestions accomplish the same thing, except mine would also benefit the game in more ways, rather than simply punishing people for grouping up in numbers bigger than 3 digits.

@Githal You are underestimating guilds, viewing them solely through the lens of personal gain and monetary benefits as a solo player. Being part of a guild goes beyond individual profit as it's about belonging to a community, building connections, and experiencing the collective achievements and enjoyment that come with it. As well as the content and socialization and a sense of belonging.

Sure some people will join and only want to be in it for the money and leave but those people get cycled out and new better people will replace them. You always have bad apples and find more of them the larger your group. But those bad apples effect all guilds at the end of the day, and those kinds of apples don't generally do anything anyway.

Mag7spy wrote: »

@Githal You are underestimating guilds, viewing them solely through the lens of personal gain and monetary benefits as a solo player. Being part of a guild goes beyond individual profit as it's about belonging to a community, building connections, and experiencing the collective achievements and enjoyment that come with it. As well as the content and socialization and a sense of belonging.

Sure some people will join and only want to be in it for the money and leave but those people get cycled out and new better people will replace them. You always have bad apples and find more of them the larger your group. But those bad apples effect all guilds at the end of the day, and those kinds of apples don't generally do anything anyway.

Well maybe this is just my opinion, but what you talking about is small guilds, since being part of small guild means you know every other person there, make friends, and you are ready to sacrifice some self stuff to help someone else.

and in my opinion large guilds x 1200 players are consisted of like 30-40 core members who start the guild and they will do whatever it takes to help the other of the core members, and the rest 1160 members are all in the guild solely coz of the benefits it provide. I dont think any person who searches for friendly community will join 1200 players guild, The sole mentality of players joining zerg guilds is to dominate everything. And again in my opinion - if they have to sacrifice things from their selves to make the other guild members better, they wont do it, because this is their mentality

Githal wrote: »

The sole mentality of players joining zerg guilds is to dominate everything. And again in my opinion - if they have to sacrifice things from their selves to make the other guild members better, they wont do it, because this is their mentality

Are you speaking from personal experience, second hand knowledge or from purely theorizing what those people think?

Cause I've led several-hundred member guilds and was part of alliances of such guilds - and all of those people were more than willing to help others in the alliance even w/o anything in return. And guilds in these alliances always had agreements on loot sharing, so everyone in the alliance knew that if they help - they'll get their fair share.

And I've experienced that across ~a decade of playing L2, across multitude of servers and server setups (from ones with very slow progression to ones that only lived for a few weeks, but people still "finished the game").

So I'm curious where your statements come from.

NiKr wrote: »

Are you speaking from personal experience, second hand knowledge or from purely theorizing what those people think?

Cause I've led several-hundred member guilds and was part of alliances of such guilds - and all of those people were more than willing to help others in the alliance even w/o anything in return. And guilds in these alliances always had agreements on loot sharing, so everyone in the alliance knew that if they help - they'll get their fair share.

And I've experienced that across ~a decade of playing L2, across multitude of servers and server setups (from ones with very slow progression to ones that only lived for a few weeks, but people still "finished the game").

So I'm curious where your statements come from.

The difference is that in L2 there is nothing to lose by being in large guild. Only things to gain. So yes players will be willing to make some sacrifices in order to stay in the guild and to be "on the good side of the community there".

And the real thing that brings the in guild fights is when part of the guild gets X benefits, other part get Y benefits, and you are there in third part of the guild with no benefits at all

or ofc there is 1 more thing that brings in guild fights, and this is if the guild start losing a lot, and win little. But this is completely out of scope so not talking about it.

Githal wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

@Githal You are underestimating guilds, viewing them solely through the lens of personal gain and monetary benefits as a solo player. Being part of a guild goes beyond individual profit as it's about belonging to a community, building connections, and experiencing the collective achievements and enjoyment that come with it. As well as the content and socialization and a sense of belonging.

Sure some people will join and only want to be in it for the money and leave but those people get cycled out and new better people will replace them. You always have bad apples and find more of them the larger your group. But those bad apples effect all guilds at the end of the day, and those kinds of apples don't generally do anything anyway.

Well maybe this is just my opinion, but what you talking about is small guilds, since being part of small guild means you know every other person there, make friends, and you are ready to sacrifice some self stuff to help someone else.

and in my opinion large guilds x 1200 players are consisted of like 30-40 core members who start the guild and they will do whatever it takes to help the other of the core members, and the rest 1160 members are all in the guild solely coz of the benefits it provide. I dont think any person who searches for friendly community will join 1200 players guild, The sole mentality of players joining zerg guilds is to dominate everything. And again in my opinion - if they have to sacrifice things from their selves to make the other guild members better, they wont do it, because this is their mentality

I feel like you have not been in a big guild before everything you are talking about doesn't exactly sound true. I've had these discussions before based on what you are saying. I also feel like you didn't understand what i just wrote previously.

First off you talk about sacrificing what you have, to me it sounds like you are giving things away (or maybe you view your own time as that thing) like you are losing a lot. Unsure what mmorpg you are giving all your money / mats to a guild for no reason. I also don't feel like you giving that much that it becomes that big a deal that actually effects your pocket. And generally in games giving to the guild gives you some sort of resource back as payment for donating in recent trends. IE you are complaining about some small donation of 100 gold out of you 10k as an example

I don't see you breaking your back and really sacrificing anything. Of course we could think of a unique situation where the guild is like we need everyone to gather wood so we can make defensives for the castle, which would be more of a guild event type thing so they can make sure it is properly protected. General guild members have pride in something special they own and want to keep it as it is their image for their guild and a symbol of power.

The mind set of I gathered wood for you now you need to pay me for my sacrifice isn't really guild mentality.

As a GM i'd pretty much kick you from the guild and you would lose out on the benefits and groups of people to play with. That would just be a selfish mind set and not really needed that you need to be paid to work together and play the game with everyone.

Which than a guild full of people with that mentality would be a group of people that care about themselves and not actually concerned about growing the guild or their standing. Meaning that would be the type of guild that would not really get anywhere.

Though based on your take, the obvious example is you are trying to suggest for some reason all guild funds and mats are given to certain people to make gear for them (mainly leadership and friends) and not other people. Which you keep ignoring the fact people are telling you to stop using bad leadership as an example of your point. Or atleast experience a good guild and gain some experience on how things work.

That or you are salty and join a guild but don't help with much except once in awhile, don't go in any fights or help raids. And then wonder why you aren't getting free hand outs. Generally based on how competitive a guild is it is the active members that re going to be getting geared out. Cause you need those people to be where you are at, as those are the people helping with pretty much everything you do.

IE when i played new world and i made sure the people in the siege were getting more gear and upgrades so we had more of a edge in fights. Cause you know those are the people fighting.

Githal wrote: »

The difference is that in L2 there is nothing to lose by being in large guild. Only things to gain. So yes players will be willing to make some sacrifices in order to stay in the guild and to be "on the good side of the community there".

And the real thing that brings the in guild fights is when part of the guild gets X benefits, other part get Y benefits, and you are there in third part of the guild with no benefits at all

L2 guild structure literally separated people into casts and limited how many guild passives a certain cast would get.

And that's not even mentioning the obvious loot distribution of "we have these 2 parties that are already super strong and have contributed a lot, so they'll get all the loot, while the dudes in the back that just joined our 200-member guild will get jack shit".

L2 didn't have a "everyone gets a prize" design, so huge guilds worked in the same way they would in Ashes. Only well-coordinated and well-led guilds would succeed, because otherwise they fall apart for all the same reasons you hope out-of-the-game alliances would fall apart.

As Depraved said. In party-based games, guilds have constant parties that are their own little guilds, which can lead to in-fighting even in 40-man groups.

So no, there was quite a bit to lose if you were in a large poorly-managed guild in L2.

But you didn't answer my question. Are you speaking from experience or from theorizing?

Mag7spy wrote: »

I feel like you have not been in a big guild before everything you are talking about doesn't exactly sound true. I've had these discussions before based on what you are saying. I also feel like you didn't understand what i just wrote previously.

First off you talk about sacrificing what you have, to me it sounds like you are giving things away (or maybe you view your own time as that thing) like you are losing a lot. Unsure what mmorpg you are giving all your money / mats to a guild for no reason. I also don't feel like you giving that much that it becomes that big a deal that actually effects your pocket. And generally in games giving to the guild gives you some sort of resource back as payment for donating in recent trends. IE you are complaining about some small donation of 100 gold out of you 10k as an example

I don't see you breaking your back and really sacrificing anything. Of course we could think of a unique situation where the guild is like we need everyone to gather wood so we can make defensives for the castle, which would be more of a guild event type thing so they can make sure it is properly protected. General guild members have pride in something special they own and want to keep it as it is their image for their guild and a symbol of power.

The mind set of I gathered wood for you now you need to pay me for my sacrifice isn't really guild mentality.

As a GM i'd pretty much kick you from the guild and you would lose out on the benefits and groups of people to play with. That would just be a selfish mind set and not really needed that you need to be paid to work together and play the game with everyone.

Which than a guild full of people with that mentality would be a group of people that care about themselves and not actually concerned about growing the guild or their standing. Meaning that would be the type of guild that would not really get anywhere.

Though based on your take, the obvious example is you are trying to suggest for some reason all guild funds and mats are given to certain people to make gear for them (mainly leadership and friends) and not other people. Which you keep ignoring the fact people are telling you to stop using bad leadership as an example of your point. Or atleast experience a good guild and gain some experience on how things work.

That or you are salty and join a guild but don't help with much except once in awhile, don't go in any fights or help raids. And then wonder why you aren't getting free hand outs. Generally based on how competitive a guild is it is the active members that re going to be getting geared out. Cause you need those people to be where you are at, as those are the people helping with pretty much everything you do.

IE when i played new world and i made sure the people in the siege were getting more gear and upgrades so we had more of a edge in fights. Cause you know those are the people fighting.

most of the discussion here is about OUT OF GAME ALLIANCES. Since the counter arguments to what i said is that if max members count of guilds is reduced "it wont matter because guilds exist out of game". So everything you said has 0 connection to the actual discussion here

And I am talking about AOC, not Any other MMO you been playing for decades.
In AOC even if you are in 1 guild and donate all the mats to 1 person, you may decide to declare war on a node and this person may be citizen and he will be against you. and this is people in same guild, now imagine the scale when players are in different guilds

Otr

Githal wrote: »

and in my opinion large guilds x 1200 players are consisted of like 30-40 core members who start the guild and they will do whatever it takes to help the other of the core members, and the rest 1160 members are all in the guild solely coz of the benefits it provide.

The size of guilds will be limited:

1) by the number of players on a server.
Theoretically all on server could be peaceful to each-other. Bring Asmon and his friendly streamers onto the same server and see what server they shape.

2) by the number of players in a metropolis nation.
We have maximum 5 of them with some nodes outside. These nations will want to get whatever is better for their nodes and there is resource scarcity in the game. So it might happen that some will want to take things from the others.
We also have these 5 nations on 2 separated continents by a full PvP area. So an imbalance with some "disagreements" between them is highly likely.

3) by dynamic hard to control parent vassal relationship.
Node sieges will reshape the world. Guilds which were initially in the same metro nation might end up in different ones and have to fight for resources. Moving many players to get all their desired citizenship will not be easy because of costs and node type preferences. So players will be forced out of the guilds and forced to listen and observe more what mayors do and try to change them during the monthly elections.
Those who get into a node while that was level 3 will not want to move away once it becomes level 5.

Now you can estimate how many players fit into a node and you will get some numbers. Some guilds might be bigger some smaller... but with the resource scarcity it will be hard to keep large players together and to cooperate. Will be easier if they observe the game rules and play the game as it is better for their freehold providers, node and nation.

Githal wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I feel like you have not been in a big guild before everything you are talking about doesn't exactly sound true. I've had these discussions before based on what you are saying. I also feel like you didn't understand what i just wrote previously.

First off you talk about sacrificing what you have, to me it sounds like you are giving things away (or maybe you view your own time as that thing) like you are losing a lot. Unsure what mmorpg you are giving all your money / mats to a guild for no reason. I also don't feel like you giving that much that it becomes that big a deal that actually effects your pocket. And generally in games giving to the guild gives you some sort of resource back as payment for donating in recent trends. IE you are complaining about some small donation of 100 gold out of you 10k as an example

I don't see you breaking your back and really sacrificing anything. Of course we could think of a unique situation where the guild is like we need everyone to gather wood so we can make defensives for the castle, which would be more of a guild event type thing so they can make sure it is properly protected. General guild members have pride in something special they own and want to keep it as it is their image for their guild and a symbol of power.

The mind set of I gathered wood for you now you need to pay me for my sacrifice isn't really guild mentality.

As a GM i'd pretty much kick you from the guild and you would lose out on the benefits and groups of people to play with. That would just be a selfish mind set and not really needed that you need to be paid to work together and play the game with everyone.

Which than a guild full of people with that mentality would be a group of people that care about themselves and not actually concerned about growing the guild or their standing. Meaning that would be the type of guild that would not really get anywhere.

Though based on your take, the obvious example is you are trying to suggest for some reason all guild funds and mats are given to certain people to make gear for them (mainly leadership and friends) and not other people. Which you keep ignoring the fact people are telling you to stop using bad leadership as an example of your point. Or atleast experience a good guild and gain some experience on how things work.

That or you are salty and join a guild but don't help with much except once in awhile, don't go in any fights or help raids. And then wonder why you aren't getting free hand outs. Generally based on how competitive a guild is it is the active members that re going to be getting geared out. Cause you need those people to be where you are at, as those are the people helping with pretty much everything you do.

IE when i played new world and i made sure the people in the siege were getting more gear and upgrades so we had more of a edge in fights. Cause you know those are the people fighting.

most of the discussion here is about OUT OF GAME ALLIANCES. Since the counter arguments to what i said is that if max members count of guilds is reduced "it wont matter because guilds exist out of game". So everything you said has 0 connection to the actual discussion here

And I am talking about AOC, not Any other MMO you been playing for decades.
In AOC even if you are in 1 guild and donate all the mats to 1 person, you may decide to declare war on a node and this person may be citizen and he will be against you. and this is people in same guild, now imagine the scale when players are in different guilds

You missed the entire point of my post by trying to say its from a different game when I'm bringing up examples lmao.

At this point I'm just convinced you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to guilds with these examples you keep bringing up. You are trying to make a narrative that guilds are going to fight each other when that isn't going to be the case.

When i have a bunch of guilds there is no reason for us to be fighting as my leadership will be running each of the guilds.

NiKr wrote: »

[
L2 guild structure literally separated people into casts and limited how many guild passives a certain cast would get.

And that's not even mentioning the obvious loot distribution of "we have these 2 parties that are already super strong and have contributed a lot, so they'll get all the loot, while the dudes in the back that just joined our 200-member guild will get jack shit".

L2 didn't have a "everyone gets a prize" design, so huge guilds worked in the same way they would in Ashes. Only well-coordinated and well-led guilds would succeed, because otherwise they fall apart for all the same reasons you hope out-of-the-game alliances would fall apart.

As Depraved said. In party-based games, guilds have constant parties that are their own little guilds, which can lead to in-fighting even in 40-man groups.

So no, there was quite a bit to lose if you were in a large poorly-managed guild in L2.

But you didn't answer my question. Are you speaking from experience or from theorizing?

I have given comment about personal experience in the comments above.

And the things you explain here are very different, since even if you dont get as mush as some other players in the guild than other members, first you still get some, and second you have no way to fight and win vs them if you decide to split.
In AOC you have the option, since from 1200 players, if for example 250 split, they can declare war on the castle and take it in 250 vs 250. (this is just example so pls dont start with the "castles wont matter"). so those that split can win.

Mag7spy wrote: »

You missed the entire point of my post by trying to say its from a different game when I'm bringing up examples lmao.

At this point I'm just convinced you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to guilds with these examples you keep bringing up. You are trying to make a narrative that guilds are going to fight each other when that isn't going to be the case.

When i have a bunch of guilds there is no reason for us to be fighting as my leadership will be running each of the guilds.

guess this is where the gap between us not understanding each other stands.
You think that as long as leaders between 2 guilds cooperate everything is fine.
And i think that even if the 2 leaders cooperate, if 1 of the 2 guilds get a lot more, the players in the other wont stand and take it as something normal

Githal wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You missed the entire point of my post by trying to say its from a different game when I'm bringing up examples lmao.

At this point I'm just convinced you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to guilds with these examples you keep bringing up. You are trying to make a narrative that guilds are going to fight each other when that isn't going to be the case.

When i have a bunch of guilds there is no reason for us to be fighting as my leadership will be running each of the guilds.

guess this is where the gap between us not understanding each other stands.
You think that as long as leaders between 2 guilds cooperate everything is fine.
And i think that even if the 2 leaders cooperate, if 1 of the 2 guilds get a lot more, the players in the other wont stand and take it as something normal

You don't' understand guilds that is the issue here. You think everyone is a solo player in a guild looking to get money.

Mag7spy wrote: »

You don't' understand guilds that is the issue here. You think everyone is a solo player in a guild looking to get money.

No i think there are mainly 2 types of players in guilds ( ofc there are a lot more types, but most can be generalized in those 2)
1. players that are in guild for the community, friendship, to help eachother - and those players join small guilds
2. players that want to dominate servers, take everything without having any competition from enemies, - they join zerg guilds, and are not there for the friendship

1. Not true those players will join small or large guilds whatever ones they feel comfortable with the people.

2. If their goal is to dominate the server and they are on top they aren't going to be dipping out of a guild that is on top. It also doesn't mean they won't make bonds during that time it depends on the players. So long as the guild stays competitive those players will generally stay without going into more finer detail.

If you are talking about selfish players that want everything and guild hop constantly, ya those are the types that will dip out for any reason.

This is getting into the psychology of things overall guilds will be fine and keep their people or recruit new ones at the end of the day. They aren't going to fight each other.

I'll give you advice the more you go on this angle the worse its just going to drag out a pointless conversation as you are missing major points of guilds. You should be advocating for content for different sizes of guilds so more types of guilds can be competitive in those elements of content.

Or really you should be advocating for content to not be won by a zerg automatically because of numbers. Balls in your court if you want to argue for something pointless or something meaningful if you really are against larger guilds just winning everything.

Mag7spy wrote: »

1. Not true those players will join small or large guilds whatever ones they feel comfortable with the people.

2. If their goal is to dominate the server and they are on top they aren't going to be dipping out of a guild that is on top. It also doesn't mean they won't make bonds during that time it depends on the players. So long as the guild stays competitive those players will generally stay without going into more finer detail.

If you are talking about selfish players that want everything and guild hop constantly, ya those are the types that will dip out for any reason.

This is getting into the psychology of things overall guilds will be fine and keep their people or recruit new ones at the end of the day. They aren't going to fight each other.

I'll give you advice the more you go on this angle the worse its just going to drag out a pointless conversation as you are missing major points of guilds. You should be advocating for content for different sizes of guilds so more types of guilds can be competitive in those elements of content.

Or really you should be advocating for content to not be won by a zerg automatically because of numbers. Balls in your court if you want to argue for something pointless or something meaningful if you really are against larger guilds just winning everything.

Again, The conversation here is not about people fighting withing the guild itself....
Its about fight between different guilds that are connected by out of game source such as discord group.

Githal wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

1. Not true those players will join small or large guilds whatever ones they feel comfortable with the people.

2. If their goal is to dominate the server and they are on top they aren't going to be dipping out of a guild that is on top. It also doesn't mean they won't make bonds during that time it depends on the players. So long as the guild stays competitive those players will generally stay without going into more finer detail.

If you are talking about selfish players that want everything and guild hop constantly, ya those are the types that will dip out for any reason.

This is getting into the psychology of things overall guilds will be fine and keep their people or recruit new ones at the end of the day. They aren't going to fight each other.

I'll give you advice the more you go on this angle the worse its just going to drag out a pointless conversation as you are missing major points of guilds. You should be advocating for content for different sizes of guilds so more types of guilds can be competitive in those elements of content.

Or really you should be advocating for content to not be won by a zerg automatically because of numbers. Balls in your court if you want to argue for something pointless or something meaningful if you really are against larger guilds just winning everything.

Again, The conversation here is not about people fighting withing the guild itself....
Its about fight between different guilds that are connected by out of game source such as discord group.

I'm fairly certain no one here is talking about an alliance, we are talking about Guilds that will have multiple guilds. IE some ones guild of 1200 people. Split between their sub guilds.

Githal wrote: »

I have given comment about personal experience in the comments above.

Could you expound on that? What kind of guilds were you in? Cause so far it seems that you've been in guilds that invite solo randos, who all have their own goals in mind none of which align with the guild's.

Githal wrote: »

And the things you explain here are very different, since even if you dont get as mush as some other players in the guild than other members, first you still get some, and second you have no way to fight and win vs them if you decide to split.

In AOC you have the option, since from 1200 players, if for example 250 split, they can declare war on the castle and take it in 250 vs 250. (this is just example so pls dont start with the "castles wont matter"). so those that split can win.

One of the biggest wars on one of the official russian servers for L2 started because one of the strongest parties in the strongest guild on the server decided to split and make their own guild. This rival guild then contested majority of farming spots, sieges and other general pvp encounters.

Here's that exact party fighting against that guild on highest value farming spots at the time (and then entrance to them).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq0jFsKVD08

And afaik this party split off exactly because there was a lapse of judgement on the guild management's part.

Also, this strongest guild had sub-guilds that didn't get the benefits from the main guild's castle (in L2's case it was stat passives), but they were still under the banner of this strongest guild, because that's where the power was.

The same would be true in Ashes if instead of 300 max members it was 100. Except I expect majority of strong guilds to never even go beyond 40 members, because getting direct power through guild abilities is way more valuable than just having members in the same guild. But these strong guilds will still have hundreds of people under their command, because that's how big strong guilds work. You seem to be talking about weak guilds full of solo players.

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm fairly certain no one here is talking about an alliance, we are talking about Guilds that will have multiple guilds. IE some ones guild of 1200 people. Split between their sub guilds.

Let me give you example so things get more clear...

You have 1200 players group that played in another game together before AOC. They have discord server where they are all together.
Now IF AOC allows 100 players per guild, you get 12 guilds that play together in game. In reality they are not connected in any way in game, just in discord server. So the conversation is about if those 12 guilds will fight each other even tho they have played together before, and have common discord server