Should Quests Take You to Level Cap?

In modern MMOs, we don't really grind the last levels anymore, but in older games we had to. I can't say I have much of a preference but I want to see what other people think. I do like grinding mobs for XP, and those last levels definitely feel a lot more rewarding if good XP sources are harder to come by. (Or if the good XP quests are harder to do or required a group in the late levels.) Anyways, what do you guys think?

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Songcaller

Yes. No. Maybe.

Depends on the quality of the quests.

lunarsky

Having played games of both types I would say I prefer the option to do quests to hit level cap rather than just straight grinding mobs/dungeons over and over. The main reason is it's repetitive with little to no nuance which gets boring after a while. Boring isn't fun and lack of fun leads to people quitting games. There is no real harm in allowing people to have multiple ways to hit the level cap. Quests also unlock more of the world's lore.

Ludullu

Both methods should provide an equally-timed way to max lvl

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Both methods should provide an equally-timed way to max lvl

This is borderline impossible and that's what's annoying about it.

The whole 'problem' with questing for exp being too heavy an option is that it can create a game where all the periods where you have this option are periods where the specific skills and build of your character are diminished in favor of your ability to follow directions (not all quests, but certainly in a game where there are enough quests for this and the average player is expected to be able to clear them).

Players with higher skill at organization, gearing and therefore killing strong mobs obviously level faster. Players with better mounts, guides/reading comprehension, and therefore clearing quests, level faster.

The latter one usually wins simply because it allows people who don't have time to devote to 'learning to play their class well' to get higher level first and then worry about that. Which also makes it the most efficient method for nearly everyone (since the mob-killer type can't usually get the quest exp once they hit the cap and therefore should always just do the quests too).

Percimes

Quests are good to deliver the lore of the game (or basic mechanics or geography). There are a good way to steer players towards activities "appropriate" for their level. They can provide basic gear.

XPs are a nice bonus. But, if the quest was about killing 15 bears, you got the XPs for killing 15 bears. Grinding in disguise.

Otr

I prefer to grind mobs, caravans and nodes rather than quests.
So I would prefer quests and story based leveling to be optional.

arsnn

I dont think you can compare the progression path in AoC to previous MMOs.

While you certaintly could get to max level with quests only, (if you go out of your way to do that) Ashes are designers certainly not tasked to build content or quests for level 46 that give 79,4% of the xp you need to get to level 47.
It just not that linear and quest hub like.

I think there are 2 reasons for that.
There is progression and content gates that develop the world-> nodes, which means every player will encounter a different set of content dependent of where they are or when they join the game.
And secondly there a lot of sandbox activities that accompany you throughout the journey, like caravans, pvp, crafting, housing, building up your node and ancillary systems and so on. You will be drawn into these activities a lot imo.

I´d be surprised if quests are the source for more than 25% of the xp accumulated for the average player.

Dygz

If Quests are a grind, it's poor game design to begin with.
Quests should always be available. The holy grail of the ever Quest.

These days, though...
I'm finding that Battlepass tasks work as well as, if not better than, Quests.

@Vissox
Sounds like you want to be able to easily Solo to Max Level?

Dygz

Percimes wrote: »

Quests are good to deliver the lore of the game (or basic mechanics or geography). There are a good way to steer players towards activities "appropriate" for their level. They can provide basic gear.

XPs are a nice bonus. But, if the quest was about killing 15 bears, you got the XPs for killing 15 bears. Grinding in disguise.

It's grinding when you don't have a sizable xp bonus reward and also don't have a sizebale monetary/item reward.
Grinding is when you're gaining minimal xp only from killing individual mobs or picking flowers or mining, etc.

Otr

Dygz wrote: »

If Quests are a grind, it's poor game design to begin with.

When I see all players around me rushing and sharing how to solve them more efficiently, is hard to enjoy them as a story. Or if they eat popcorn while I watch the... cutscenes.

Dygz

Yep.
Gamers rushing to share spoilers in pursuit of the META is the bane of a static Themepark MMO in the Internet Age.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

The latter one usually wins simply because it allows people who don't have time to devote to 'learning to play their class well' to get higher level first and then worry about that. Which also makes it the most efficient method for nearly everyone (since the mob-killer type can't usually get the quest exp once they hit the cap and therefore should always just do the quests too).

But I think that's the point of balancing in itself. Questing has its own kind of speed, so grinding mobs at optimal speeds should be right around that as well. Optimal here being "at the peak of one's abilities".

In other words, the XPing part should be equal, but the rewards are different. Given how Ashes' gearing seems to be working - quests might lvl you up, but you won't be able to kill shit, cause you won't have gear at that high lvl.

Of course there's a chance that you get a ton of money through quests, but then it's a balancing issue onto itself, and money won't = gear, if you're one of the first to go through the quest-lvling, because you'd be way further ahead of others.

And of course, depending on how quests even work, it might be that the optimal way is to do quest AND grind mobs along the way.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

In other words, the XPing part should be equal, but the rewards are different. Given how Ashes' gearing seems to be working - quests might lvl you up, but you won't be able to kill shit, cause you won't have gear at that high lvl.

I'm used to interacting with people who wouldn't consider this to be balanced, that's where our priors don't match.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I'm used to interacting with people who wouldn't consider this to be balanced, that's where our priors don't match.

Btw, what is your group's opinion on quest rewards in general? I'm used to bear-asses quests that might give you a material or a tiny bit of money, so obviously I'm not used to big quests rewarding big things.

What would your group consider a "good design" for quest rewards, given what we know of AoC's gearing?

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'm used to interacting with people who wouldn't consider this to be balanced, that's where our priors don't match.

Btw, what is your group's opinion on quest rewards in general? I'm used to bear-asses quests that might give you a material or a tiny bit of money, so obviously I'm not used to big quests rewarding big things.

What would your group consider a "good design" for quest rewards, given what we know of AoC's gearing?

We know something about AoC's gearing?

I expect if I ask, they'll have a response that 'challenges' that 'assumption' first. Or, most likely, ask me why I, as their Econ person, am even asking them.

Probably best to leave it for a while until the thread gets the rest of the desired opinions. I can tell you that FFXI players in general didn't 'quest' for anything in particular other than the experience of doing the quest or Reputation/fame.

As said in some other thread recently, we pick up these games 'to have an adventure and progress a little at the end of each'. I guess that's enough of an answer for now? A quest should be an adventure in itself, and if the process of doing it doesn't reward about a level/half level of exp, then maybe it should give a half-decent gear piece.

That's not what you're asking, but maybe it'll do until later.

Depraved

i prefer mobs tbh ;3

Aszkalon

Actually it would be the nicest, fresh Wind of change for me EVER - if i could reach a Level-Cap for once WITHOUT grinding things like Plants and Ore's like crazy or kill Ten Million Mobs or so.

I mean okay, through all the Years i also hit Maxlevel a few Times with Quests. But i am always reminding the nearly endless grinds. Like in WoW Vanilla, lol.

Diamaht

Vissox wrote: »

In modern MMOs, we don't really grind the last levels anymore, but in older games we had to. I can't say I have much of a preference but I want to see what other people think. I do like grinding mobs for XP, and those last levels definitely feel a lot more rewarding if good XP sources are harder to come by. (Or if the good XP quests are harder to do or required a group in the late levels.) Anyways, what do you guys think?

It's hard to judge since we are not talking about a theme park mmo.

But using that context: Using only one method could get you most of the way. However, you would leave a little out to make the players explore at least a few different aspects of your game along the way.

Noaani

IMO, yes, quests should be able to take you to the level cap, with gear that is of a quality that makes that possible (but is by no means good).

However, that quest line should have many situations where players are presented with other activities (harvesting, processing, crafting, running trade routes, glint, building a boat etc), so that if they want to deviate from the path they can.

Grinding mobs should be faster in terms of experience gain than questing, but should have almost no gear directly associated with it. However, if a player opts to grind for experience, they can use the coin they have (likely largely from glint) to buy gear that is on par or slightly better than what they would have obtained from following the quest line.

This is what most games I have played have done for the last 15 or so years - and older games have been changed to basically follow this. it seems to be the accepted middle ground that gives players the most viable options.

Vissox

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NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

The latter one usually wins simply because it allows people who don't have time to devote to 'learning to play their class well' to get higher level first and then worry about that. Which also makes it the most efficient method for nearly everyone (since the mob-killer type can't usually get the quest exp once they hit the cap and therefore should always just do the quests too).

But I think that's the point of balancing in itself. Questing has its own kind of speed, so grinding mobs at optimal speeds should be right around that as well. Optimal here being "at the peak of one's abilities".

In other words, the XPing part should be equal, but the rewards are different. Given how Ashes' gearing seems to be working - quests might lvl you up, but you won't be able to kill shit, cause you won't have gear at that high lvl.

Of course there's a chance that you get a ton of money through quests, but then it's a balancing issue onto itself, and money won't = gear, if you're one of the first to go through the quest-lvling, because you'd be way further ahead of others.

And of course, depending on how quests even work, it might be that the optimal way is to do quest AND grind mobs along the way.

I agree, and you could definitely factor things like npc xp to subtract from the xp budget of a quest. I don't expect that anyone is going to grind the entire way to level cap. I think a good game would let you choose what you prefer but still supplement with one or the other while keeping up efficiency.

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