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The 'Unfamiliar' environment syndrome
Turjilin
Member
I have searched on forums and other places to check if this topic was ever discussed. I like that ashes of creation is going for a system that is new to us i.e the node system and it is exciting but can't deny I have one fear. The world is mostly going to be made up of nodes and random point of interests generated by the nodes right? Do you think that the feeling of exploration will be somewhat tainted since everything around you is 'constantly' changing? Maybe since your never done exploring or the feeling of being in the middle of unfamiliar environment all the time somehow gets overwhelming or loose interest to keep exploring new places? Other games all have at least one iconic town/village/point of interest.
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Discovering something actually new in some games actually meant something - being the first to see something that is then in the game forever is far more noteworthy than being the first to see something in a game where everything is temporary.
The joy in exploration is to expand what is known and understood - if nothing is known and understood due to it always being in flux, then there is no joy in exploration.
True the world will evolve and change with time, but it's not instantaneous, and, lets be honest, often the more it changes, the more it's the same. If anything, I'm more worried that everything will feel more familiar and, maybe not generic, but at least giving a sense of déjà vu everywhere I go.
Yet, the fact that change is possible gives me a reason to want to revisit some of the place I will have already be visited. Simply knowing the players have a influence in the shaping of the world makes me want to see how different Verra is from server to server. They all started with the same parameters, the only variable is the player population. So the world to explore is even bigger in a way.
That may be the way you see it, but it's not how I do. In the context of a game, being the first to see something is a fallacy: some developers will always beat you to it. And there are maybe beta testers under NDA about it. True, among players some will be in the few firsts, but if social recognition is not something one crave, seeing something for themselves for the first time is what matters. Ironically, with a constantly changing world, a players' chances of being among the few firsts to see something are multiply.
My joy in exploration is to expand what I know and understand. I don't consult guides, I don't want too many spoilers. I don't explore to catalogue the world and profit from secret knowledge of its resources.
I'm not saying you're wrong or what you said is false, but perspective play a large part on where one find joy in.
Beta testers - not always, but as I am often the first beta tester to see various parts of games and expansions, this is not really a valid point - to me. Then the same point holds true.
If your joy from exploration is expanding what you know and understand, then the joy of exploring in a game like Ashes where content is replaced rather than added to is lessened.
There will be a point while playing Ashes where you are observing change rather than exploring. Instead of expanding what you know, you are altering what you know.
Actual exploration is likely to be more limited in Ashes than in any other MMO I have ever played.
Hehe, true, maintenance is never as sexy as announcing something new. Still, keeping up to date on the server conditions is still somewhat valuable. Someone got to keep an accurate picture of the map. Surveying resources locations, scouting the "others" and what not.
it should be the opposite. there is a reason why people like exploring. if you go to the same place 20 times, you arent exploring anymore...so at some point, you will have visited the whole map, then it changes, and you can explore again and be excited about new places ;3
care to elaborate? i mean, new stuff will appear when the nodes get destroyed and others level up..so the same area can have several different things popping up, making it a new area..basically
I doubt things will change that drastically and frequently.
Mountains and biomes will remain as points of reference while traveling.
Maybe players can get lost in biomes with dense vegetation unless they live there.
I think metropolises will last long enough. My guess is 6 months.
There is a difference between new stuff, and stuff changing.
If one node state sees a dungeon being in a specific spot, that is something new to explore. If the next node state changes the inhabatants of the dungeon, that is not something new to explore. All you are doing is learning the changes to something you have already explored.
Sure, new areas can open up on occasion, and when you find them you may well have a small new area to explore, but in comparison to other games releasing entire new continents (in some cases, every year), a room or two in a dungeon isn't exactly a lot to explore.
This is why I specifically said exploration will be more limited, as opposed to saying it won't exist.
Why not both?
It's fun to revisit a location and see what has changed and what has stayed the same.
That doesn't take away the accomplishment of visiting the first time.
Exactly, because that sense of accomplishment is part of the 'curiosity' driver. It's frustrating when that change erodes that completionist %.
With a cotton beard and a Stufferton. A dangerous guy.
It's like not having an endgame?
Explorer 87%; Socializer 73%; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
Might be frustrating for a playstyle with a higher Achiever score.
yeah I agree. but we don't know if new dungeons will appear in ashes depending on nodes (wkind of but not 100%, we know new floors will appear). but new stuff could appear.
also, you are comparing games releasing expansions vs a game that isn't out yet. what makes you think that ashes wont release new continents or areas every year or two after launch?
The second reason is related to the above - in a PvP focused game, adding more land dilutes the population. The same number of people spread over a larger area means you run in to fewer people, fight against fewer people, and thus the world is less dangerous.
The third is specific to Ashes - nodes. The game world is designed in a way where basically all the game world is within the ZoI of nodes. Adding new land means either going against that which would be weird, or it means adding new nodes.
Adding new nodes has a similar effect as above, fewer people per node.
It took EQ2 just over three years to more than double the land area the game had - this is a rate of expansion that a game like Ashes simply can not support.
So, while I don't know that Ashes won't add new land, I am very confident in saying they won't add new land at the same rate as other games.
It would literally break the game.
your #1 is a (inaccurate) generalization. l2 added lots of shit every few months (they didn't have to wait a year), even entire cities, areas, quests, zones, etc. thats the most pvp game you can find out there. not gonna argue if eq added more stuff per year than l2. probably, idk. eq was also instanced, wasn't it?
your 2 and 3, I agree those are potential problems, but there are solutions for them...
I see them adding new dungeons and such to start off with, sliding them in to the games node system. As the game progresses and they realize that this is both an inefficient way to add new content, and also has a limited appeal to players, they will have to find ways to add new content in other ways.
I don't see them adding more nodes for many years - at a point in time where they have given up on the game being what it was at launch (what ever the game is at launch). Them adding new nodes is kind of them signalling that they don't really care about the health of the game any more, they just want to hold on to what players they have for as long as they can.
you know every game literally does this (minus lobby or instanced games). all games have nodes and pois and when they add more content and new areas, they are actually adding nodes and pois (and players like it). ashes just choose to call them by their technical name as a brand name thingie as well.
saying that's inefficient and that it doesn't appeal to players is a big stretch. you are basically talking about pretty much every open world mmorpg out there.
It's only a stretch if you don't understand.
It is inefficient because an individual player only cares about the content in front of them, and even if the only thing altering the content in question is the type of node the nearest metropolis is, this still means the developers need to make 4 pieces of content in order to make one piece of content that players have placed in front of them.
I'm more than happy stating that this is inefficient in comparison to games that make one piece of content to achieve this same end.
Your statement that me saying it doesn't appeal to players is not something that deserves a response, as I did not say it doesn't appeal to players - I said it has a limited appeal. These are different statements.
And they ask "what entices you to not skip cutscenes"
what?
ok imagine you are playing any mmorpg that isn't ashes. eventually there is an update. new city added. with the new city comes 2 more areas (or dungeons) where you can farm stuff and maybe 1 or 2 new more areas later on.. these areas are nodes and pois in game development terms...that game decides to use the term "area" and ashes uses the term "node" they are the same thing.
the limited appeal is basically everyone who likes non lobby mmorpg.
even in a game where you walk to a dungeon, and the dungeon creates instances to accommodate all the players, the very entrance to that dungeon is a node/poi.
It is correct in some games - it is not universally true as you are trying to make out.
In some games, nodes are what would be called "quest hubs" in some other games. A town could well have a dozen or more nodes, a large city could have hundreds. Nodes are also points in various storytelling systems in some games. No, the limited appeal is because people will eventually get bored of updates where all they do is add a new variation of a dungeon.
For a while, people will be happy with it - but only for a while. In some games, sure.
The thing is, you are trying to make an absolutely pointless argument. You are arguing against "words" that I used, trying to state that those "words" always mean things they only sometimes mean, and are forgetting or ignoring what the words you are arguing about actually mean in the context of Ashes.
That said, this is all just another day with you...
A "Node" dynamically changes content as Villages/Towns and buildings rise and fall and as different Races dominate the Node while that Node progresses from Stage to Stage.
I'm not aware of any other MMORPG that has Nodes.
EQNext had a similar concept in their design but that became vaporware.
so basically everything you add can be considered a node, except different games use different names instead of nodes, but steven decided to use the generic name "nodes", as I said.
...
my argument wasn't against your words. my argument was that you said that the way they plan to add more content is inefficient and wont be appealing to most people...and I'm arguing that this is pretty much how every game adds content and how it will appeal to most people, since this is already how its done .-.
no dygz. a node is an element in a tree data structure.