10-15 SECONDS TTK

According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK

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Ludullu

Yeah, and WAY FASTER in group situations. It's gonna be a bloodbath. I personally highly dislike it.

Azherae

Given current design direction, I am tentatively going to say this is fine, actually.

A certain set of recent changes to the way damage is calculated, and the information from the weapon trees, tells me this can work.

I also however absolutely support everyone who feels strongly negative about this. I'm just saying that from my perspective and the overall flow of the game, it would have been extremely hard to make the TTK they said originally, work.

EDIT: Also Rangers need to just lose Snipe as an ability straight up if they want this.

Mag7spy

I got no issues and agree with his point on increasing the skill ceiling. You have defensive skills meaning that your skill level can let you survive longer , and still be able to survive for 30 seconds (depending on class).

Honestly not unexpected at all, i don't know how people think attacking someone for 60 seconds as the average base line is going to fly in modern games lol (average and high end are not the same).

TheDarkSorcerer

I'm against it. Will force everyone into zerg trains to survive longer. That is not fun and requires 0 skill.

GrilledCheeseMojito

As a fighting game player, this sits uneasy with me. I know things flow a little faster in MMOs, but I can't think of any round that ended at 79 or less on the timer than didn't feel thoroughly unsatisfying, and I worry that's what's going to happen here based on what he said. If even Tank vs Tank lasts 30 seconds, it's still concerning.

Nerror

I think it's too fast, but let's get ingame and then tear it to shreds with actual examples

Azherae

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

I'm against it. Will force everyone into ball groups. That is not fun and requires 0 skill.

This depends entirely on how you 'measure' TTK, though, the positional jockeying before the actual engagement is usually not counted.

If anything, the important thing here is the dynamics of battles where a character can 'use a long cooldown ability, then not be able to use it again before everyone in their team is down or the battle is lost'. This is what Steven basically said he wants to happen though.

Yes, this is a wildly different design direction than what anyone but probably Mag7 was thinking when they visualized Ashes combat, but it's not particularly bad.

Shoutouts to Mag7spy for the good call on that and holding the line against all of us dreaming up ways to get to some sort of 'revolutionary' modern 30s TTK. Keep going, king.

Dygz

We'll have to test it.

SongRune

I'm actually really curious to see how they'll manage to implement Bard in a game with a such a short TTK. In some games it takes almost that long to cast a single buff. I can't imagine being told that I might not even have time for one song before a battle's nearly over, but if Bards don't have a meaningful casting time, what does that look like? Narbash only really has one buff, so he isn't a great example. I'm quite curious to see how the team intends to make Bards effective without relegating us entirely to 'buffbot' status, or rewriting the archetype into something else entirely.

Percimes

Well, hopefully you'll have time for the chorus. No full song. No long lute solo allowed now.

Azherae

SongRune wrote: »

I'm actually really curious to see how they'll manage to implement Bard in a game with a such a short TTK. In some games it takes almost that long to cast a single buff. I can't imagine being told that I might not even have time for one song before a battle's nearly over, but if Bards don't have a meaningful casting time, what does that look like? Narbash only really has one buff, so he isn't a great example. I'm quite curious to see how the team intends to make Bards effective without relegating us entirely to 'buffbot' status, or rewriting the archetype into something else entirely.

You gotta be a little clearer about these things around these parts, y'know.

No one would be expecting a game where it takes 6s or more to cast a buff. I know what you mean by this (assessment + decision + positioning + cast time) but to others it will just sound like hyperbole.

I don't think the team generally wants the Bard to be the one 'dealing with' the focus fire aspect of battle, if anything, your part would be to assess based on the guaranteed demise of whoever gets focused. That's going to be an interesting skill check for bards with the cooldowns we've been seeing.

Okeydoke

I thought I heard his answer as 15-30 seconds average ttk, not 10-15. Did I hear it wrong? Whatever the case, 30-60 was something I always thought to be too high and likely to change.

Ludullu

Okeydoke wrote: »

I thought I heard his answer as 15-30 seconds average ttk, not 10-15. Did I hear it wrong? Whatever the case, 30-60 was something I always thought to be too high and likely to change.

30 is for the tankier classes fighting each other. DPS would be even faster, and party v party will create 1s ttk, because assist-kills exist.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

I thought I heard his answer as 15-30 seconds average ttk, not 10-15. Did I hear it wrong? Whatever the case, 30-60 was something I always thought to be too high and likely to change.

30 is for the tankier classes fighting each other. DPS would be even faster, and party v party will create 1s ttk, because assist-kills exist.

I don't see 1 second happening unless certain things were together. Group has full DPS and no heals and people are standing still. If there is a moment where the gameplay has no defensive capabilities and you can't react to anything in the game they will change it until its where they want.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

I thought I heard his answer as 15-30 seconds average ttk, not 10-15. Did I hear it wrong? Whatever the case, 30-60 was something I always thought to be too high and likely to change.

30 is for the tankier classes fighting each other. DPS would be even faster, and party v party will create 1s ttk, because assist-kills exist.

Party vs Party does not automatically create low TTK scenarios, this is not true in TL, it is not true in good MOBAs, it is basically only true in weak MMORPGs (I'm sorta counting New World here too, yes) and Korean MMOs that have mistuned CC.

Now, I'm not arguing against anyone who currently sees Ashes through the lens of 'it's a Korean-like MMO with mistuned CC' because it certainly do be like that tho...

But it's kind of like 'Korean WoW' at this point in terms of design 'flair' (I can't say 'ethos' because we still don't know enough to know and will not know until Rogue releases at minimum).

I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s.

The main issue would be if the target audience of Ashes have the skill to play in that design space. (based on my recent 'smurfing' in Pred, no, they probably do not, but that doesn't mean the top players need to slog).

If we get certain things, we're going full ArcheAge.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

I'm against it. Will force everyone into ball groups. That is not fun and requires 0 skill.

This depends entirely on how you 'measure' TTK, though, the positional jockeying before the actual engagement is usually not counted.

If anything, the important thing here is the dynamics of battles where a character can 'use a long cooldown ability, then not be able to use it again before everyone in their team is down or the battle is lost'. This is what Steven basically said he wants to happen though.

Yes, this is a wildly different design direction than what anyone but probably Mag7 was thinking when they visualized Ashes combat, but it's not particularly bad.

Shoutouts to Mag7spy for the good call on that and holding the line against all of us dreaming up ways to get to some sort of 'revolutionary' modern 30s TTK. Keep going, king.

You any good players will be able to survive though is the thing. (though i guess it depends who you are fighting as well).

I'd' image it be like throne and liberty if you are having a 1v1, but the fight would last longer because of your defensive skills. (Something I feel throne and liberty lacks except for sword+shield). And the skill level of that will be what separate players from surviving longer in fights.

Im still convinced like i said before you will see the TTK around 20 seconds with proper team composition (but fluctuating based on player resources) . Like i said in my post to nikr if people are dying without being able to react as a norm. They will most likely up it to it is where they want.

Honestly i wouldn't be surprised if there is ways to spec into special cc resist for first hit cc resist based on the Q/A talk.

GreatPhilisopher

Mag7spy wrote: »

I got no issues and agree with his point on increasing the skill ceiling. You have defensive skills meaning that your skill level can let you survive longer , and still be able to survive for 30 seconds (depending on class).

Honestly not unexpected at all, i don't know how people think attacking someone for 60 seconds as the average base line is going to fly in modern games lol (average and high end are not the same).

your defensive skills wont matter if u gonna die before u can use any of them and even if u can u would of wasted a lot of points for those defensive stuff now u are useless. they think 10-15 sec with the current state they are in with basic weapons and not much testing on what players will actually do in the game, in reality 10-15 will only get u one shots with no way to react only maybe a tank get to survive for a few seconds if he's lucky.

no one thought we'll get 1 minute of a fight unless its maybe 2 rouges trolling in invis or tanks with heals , most people or at least i thought the TTK would be between 25-45 secs maybe 15-20 secs in some situations and make it so a higher level player can kill players 20 lvls under him but would be challenged if a few ganged on him and same with a player or two 10 lvls under him so GS isnt obsolete where even at the same level a little GS differnce means u are useless.

they are even going with the AA weapons route which will basically mean 2 handed weapons are gonna be useless .

if they keep this the game will only be playable by tryhards who got macros to click 20 skills in 1 second and not even bothering cuz anyone whos isnt almost the same GS as them will die in 2 auto attacks anyway

Mag7spy

Also one side note, there will be the people that spec into glass cannon and do die in one second, and don't get any defensive skills / itemizations/ passives / etc.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

I don't see 1 second happening unless certain things were together. Group has full DPS and no heals and people are standing still. If there is a moment where the gameplay has no defensive capabilities and you can't react to anything in the game they will change it until its where they want.

Azherae wrote: »

I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s.

The question to both of you would be this then: do you count ttk from the start of the attackers' animation or from the existence of any enemy effect on the target?

Cause we saw in the caravan showcase that a few rangers using snipe together just wiped a dude. Snipe is a long cast, so one might say it was a non-1-second ttk, but to me I don't care what my enemy does for howeverlong before he hits me, but if I die within a 1sec of a hit - imo that's a 1s ttk.

Defensive buffs would presumably get counterbalanced by offensive ones, unless Intrepid go out of their way to add long-lasting strong def buffs that MAKE the ttk last longer.

In any other case, a well-prepped group with a rogue that has full stealth can wipe an enemy cleric in under a second. I'll be glad if I'm wrong, but right now I'm not seeing a way where I could be wrong tbh.

Mag7spy

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I got no issues and agree with his point on increasing the skill ceiling. You have defensive skills meaning that your skill level can let you survive longer , and still be able to survive for 30 seconds (depending on class).

Honestly not unexpected at all, i don't know how people think attacking someone for 60 seconds as the average base line is going to fly in modern games lol (average and high end are not the same).

your defensive skills wont matter if u gonna die before u can use any of them and even if u can u would of wasted a lot of points for those defensive stuff now u are useless. they think 10-15 sec with the current state they are in with basic weapons and not much testing on what players will actually do, in reality 10-15 will only get u one shots only maybe a tank get survive for a few seconds.

no one thought we'll get 1 minute of a fight unless its maybe 2 rouges trolling in invis or tanks with heals , most people or at least i thought the TTK would be between 25-45 secs maybe 15-20 secs in some situations and make it so a higher level player can kill players 20 lvls under him but would be challenged if a few ganged on him and same with a player or two 10 lvls under him so GS isnt obsolete where even at the same level a little GS differnce means u are useless.

they are even going with the AA weapons route which will basically mean 2 handed weapons are gonna be useless

If you are getting one shot that isn't 10-15 ttk. Also defensive skills can be as strong as the devs want it to be. Do to this TTK they need to be stronger for the skill ceiling to make sense.

The sweet spot imo is when you aren't just trying to throw everything out in rotation but you are actually thinking about the combat and when to use moves. Else they could be dodged, guarded, reflected, etc. Which slows down combat a bit.

Though i need to actually test it, and that being said no one is going to have full kits and game wont be balanced. Though the feeling is what is important, does it feel good, can i react, etc.

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