10-15 SECONDS TTK

According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I don't see 1 second happening unless certain things were together. Group has full DPS and no heals and people are standing still. If there is a moment where the gameplay has no defensive capabilities and you can't react to anything in the game they will change it until its where they want.

Azherae wrote: »

I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s.

The question to both of you would be this then: do you count ttk from the start of the attackers' animation or from the existence of any enemy effect on the target?

Cause we saw in the caravan showcase that a few rangers using snipe together just wiped a dude. Snipe is a long cast, so one might say it was a non-1-second ttk, but to me I don't care what my enemy does for howeverlong before he hits me, but if I die within a 1sec of a hit - imo that's a 1s ttk.

Defensive buffs would presumably get counterbalanced by offensive ones, unless Intrepid go out of their way to add long-lasting strong def buffs that MAKE the ttk last longer.

In any other case, a well-prepped group with a rogue that has full stealth can wipe an enemy cleric in under a second. I'll be glad if I'm wrong, but right now I'm not seeing a way where I could be wrong tbh.

It's admittedly difficult to explain, but note that I, at least, and I expect Mag, are not saying 'what they have right now will fit what they say they want'.

If anything I'd say their demos have been explicitly terrible for showing off anything TTK related, as much as some people find the whole ranger burstdown appealing or funny.

All I'm saying is that there are multiple designs which can exist where anyone reasonably expecting any PvP, should have abilities/gear that prevents the majority of sub-4s TTK situations. The 'issue' is, again, the execution skill level required to play in those designs, because they are Fighting Game tier (technically higher than most modern ones, but not all).

Also, we still have to factor the most meaningful effect on TTK, Accuracy Vs Evasion. No matter what you do, statistically, JUST the fact that Fighter's Maim skill could theoretically just nat1 the enemy Cleric, means that TTK can go up.

If 10s is what happens between two full-assault DPS, it's almost certainly because both built as much Acc as they need to kill the average player, and nearly no meaningful Evasion.

Evasion builds in BDO can reach 27s TTK (more like time to finally die).

BDO.

Otr

Better to start with 10-15 and increase it while testing, rather than a high TTK and try to decrease it.

Azherae

Otr wrote: »

Better to start with 10-15 and increase it while testing, rather than a high TTK and try to decrease it.

Technically neither of these is good, in my opinion.

But it's also a moot point, there's no way for Steven to give a reasonable answer regarding their interaction targets in something like an AMA, that would take multiple videos just to get even the start of understanding.

Azherae

Ok this was funnier than I thought.

Probably because it's a Berserker doing it. First 2 minutes.

Just imagine this, but on me as Cleric, and some of the CC parts are working so I can't necessarily get heals off until enough CC DR builds up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsV2asU9xM8

But still not dying super fast.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

But still not dying super fast.

It's still wild to me that BDO uses evasion/accuracy stats. Isn't the entire point of an action system that you don't need to rely on those? Crazy stuff

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

But still not dying super fast.

It's still wild to me that BDO uses evasion/accuracy stats. Isn't the entire point of an action system that you don't need to rely on those? Crazy stuff

The gaming world is truly full of all sorts of design ideals.

Also, as Mag has told you many times before, BDO is not particularly 'Action', you mostly can just 'point in the general conal direction of your enemy and the right thing will probably happen.

It's honestly more generous than some parts of TL at the higher levels of play, so the Evasion stat is there to make up for that and bring it closer to what Mag has described and what players like Dygz would want if they were 'Action Combat' fans.

Anyways, the point there is, you need a lot of experience, understanding, examples, etc, and most importantly game context, to know what '10-30s TTK' means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjIWWNZBpD0

If you watch this whole clip and then had to tell someone TL's TTK, you'd have to say '4-40 seconds' or something equally unhelpful. This is why I care so much more about the details of what they show, than the number given.

But, again, I agree that what they've shown doesn't look good yet. It's just not simple enough to take as a whole if you have faith like Mag does.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

But still not dying super fast.

It's still wild to me that BDO uses evasion/accuracy stats. Isn't the entire point of an action system that you don't need to rely on those? Crazy stuff

RPGs are going to have Evasion and Accuracy stats because character skills should be more important than gamer/twitch skills.
In an RPG, it should be possible to build a character with better aim than the player's aim.
That's really the entire point of an RPG.
RPGs with Action Combat allow more player skill imput but should still have plenty of character build determing results.
(I do prefer hybrid, like NWO. Though BDO sucks - feels hack n slash - and Classes feel like a generic fighting game rather than like a true RPG Class.)

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I don't see 1 second happening unless certain things were together. Group has full DPS and no heals and people are standing still. If there is a moment where the gameplay has no defensive capabilities and you can't react to anything in the game they will change it until its where they want.

Azherae wrote: »

I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s.

The question to both of you would be this then: do you count ttk from the start of the attackers' animation or from the existence of any enemy effect on the target?

Cause we saw in the caravan showcase that a few rangers using snipe together just wiped a dude. Snipe is a long cast, so one might say it was a non-1-second ttk, but to me I don't care what my enemy does for howeverlong before he hits me, but if I die within a 1sec of a hit - imo that's a 1s ttk.

Defensive buffs would presumably get counterbalanced by offensive ones, unless Intrepid go out of their way to add long-lasting strong def buffs that MAKE the ttk last longer.

In any other case, a well-prepped group with a rogue that has full stealth can wipe an enemy cleric in under a second. I'll be glad if I'm wrong, but right now I'm not seeing a way where I could be wrong tbh.

It's admittedly difficult to explain, but note that I, at least, and I expect Mag, are not saying 'what they have right now will fit what they say they want'.

If anything I'd say their demos have been explicitly terrible for showing off anything TTK related, as much as some people find the whole ranger burstdown appealing or funny.

All I'm saying is that there are multiple designs which can exist where anyone reasonably expecting any PvP, should have abilities/gear that prevents the majority of sub-4s TTK situations. The 'issue' is, again, the execution skill level required to play in those designs, because they are Fighting Game tier (technically higher than most modern ones, but not all).

Also, we still have to factor the most meaningful effect on TTK, Accuracy Vs Evasion. No matter what you do, statistically, JUST the fact that Fighter's Maim skill could theoretically just nat1 the enemy Cleric, means that TTK can go up.

If 10s is what happens between two full-assault DPS, it's almost certainly because both built as much Acc as they need to kill the average player, and nearly no meaningful Evasion.

Evasion builds in BDO can reach 27s TTK (more like time to finally die).

BDO.

I'll never forget when i quit and came back and had a bit of gear and was attacking an evasion build and he left to go afk and i couldn't deal dmg to him. Only to bring my friend that hadn't quit that was really geared and watch him do 0 dmg on his class back when evasion was op.

Individuated Soul

I've stated this before but ultra low kill times indicates that there is a design issue, and dps numbers are probably not in check.

CROW3

I need to watch the AMA, but my perspective right now is that this will really not be known until after A2. I’d pay more attention to how Stephen wants combat to feel as opposed to some exact integer value.

Mag7spy

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I've stated this before but ultra low kill times indicates that there is a design issue, and dps numbers are probably not in check.

Cap on you suggesting they don't know what they are designing lol.

Vissox

I think league of legends has perfect TTK and they should try to balance group PVP around that kind of time frame. (like 1-3 minute fights)

Depraved

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK

this isn't final, the same way the 30 secs ttk wasn't final. they are doing internal testing and will adjust according to player testing.

and how is 10 seconds getting one shotted? unless you mean you put 1 dot on the opponent that kills that person after 10 seconds of ticking lol.

NiKr wrote: »

Yeah, and WAY FASTER in group situations. It's gonna be a bloodbath. I personally highly dislike it.

could be but remember that in group situations you will have your healers healing you, and your group will be trying to cc the attackers to save you...so those 10-15 seconds are only if you are just standing there not doing anything and your group isn't either. you are basically attacking people afk.

not sure why you dislike it. archers focus fire one shots were worse in l2

Depraved

SongRune wrote: »

I'm actually really curious to see how they'll manage to implement Bard in a game with a such a short TTK. In some games it takes almost that long to cast a single buff. I can't imagine being told that I might not even have time for one song before a battle's nearly over, but if Bards don't have a meaningful casting time, what does that look like? Narbash only really has one buff, so he isn't a great example. I'm quite curious to see how the team intends to make Bards effective without relegating us entirely to 'buffbot' status, or rewriting the archetype into something else entirely.

wtf is that game where you need 10-15 seconds to cast ONE buff? o-o

Individuated Soul

Mag7spy wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I've stated this before but ultra low kill times indicates that there is a design issue, and dps numbers are probably not in check.

Cap on you suggesting they don't know what they are designing lol.

Plenty of game developers "know" what they are designing, but turn out to be horrible decisions.

Mag7spy

Individuated Soul wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I've stated this before but ultra low kill times indicates that there is a design issue, and dps numbers are probably not in check.

Cap on you suggesting they don't know what they are designing lol.

Plenty of game developers "know" what they are designing, but turn out to be horrible decisions.

Guess we will all test it and see how it feels. Their direction is fine, not expecting the Alpha to be fully balanced. Though ill see what my feed back on the feel is when I'm able to actually help with the testing. For now i want to see what they bring to the table.

Depraved

ok people here who havent experienced the 30-60 secs ttk are complaining that things are worse now. how can you know if you haven't experienced it?

since the game is being balanced around 8 men parties with 1 of each archetype, you can safely assume (unless steven says otherwise) that the ttk is for one party attacking one target (one player). with a 30 seconds ttk, I could be a healer getting focus fired, go to my kitchen to get some water, come back and my character is still at half hp. fights would probably never end unless you drastically reduced healing.

being attacked by a full party and not dying for at least 10 seconds gives the player enough time to react, get heals, etc. 30-60 ttk is just for the carebears who wanna run away when they are gathering and get attacked =D

Individuated Soul

Mag7spy wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I've stated this before but ultra low kill times indicates that there is a design issue, and dps numbers are probably not in check.

Cap on you suggesting they don't know what they are designing lol.

Plenty of game developers "know" what they are designing, but turn out to be horrible decisions.

Guess we will all test it and see how it feels. Their direction is fine, not expecting the Alpha to be fully balanced. Though ill see what my feed back on the feel is when I'm able to actually help with the testing. For now i want to see what they bring to the table.

I do wonder if the large scale battles are driving this low ttk design. Faster deaths = less strain

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

not sure why you dislike it. archers focus fire one shots were worse in l2

I dislike it for that exact reason. I saw snipes in the caravan showcase, I heard "10s on dps vs dps 1v1s" and then Steven literally snaps his fingers and says "kill a target real quick" when talking about group vs group.

It's exactly because I know how archers worked in L2 and how assist-kills worked there, and I know that this is also exactly what Steven had in mind when giving that example, that I'm worried about ttks.

No one can heal you or buff you or do whatever, when a stealthed rogue hits you with a backstab right as his ranger and mage cast their big bursts. And you're the healer in this case, so you're the first to drop (just as it was in L2) and unless we get a "blessed rez scroll" from L2 - ain't no one rezzing you in time.

And I'm sure you know what kind of meta L2 had when archers could easily assist-kill some dudes from a mile away

And even there L2 usually depended on good buffs, good gear and high crit values to accomplish this, and otherwise the ttk was lower. Here Steven explicitly states they current plan and explains party pvp as "*snap* and a target is dead, if you have enough skill to pick the same target and talk in discord".

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

you can safely assume (unless steven says otherwise) that the ttk is for one party attacking one target (one player)

Tell me you didn't watch the stream w/o telling me you didn't watch the stream

https://clips.twitch.tv/ZanyDarkCheesecakeKippa-iRpbtbHaR4EoFAny

Child Item