According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK
this isn't final, the same way the 30 secs ttk wasn't final. they are doing internal testing and will adjust according to player testing.
and how is 10 seconds getting one shotted? unless you mean you put 1 dot on the opponent that kills that person after 10 seconds of ticking lol.
Yeah, and WAY FASTER in group situations. It's gonna be a bloodbath. I personally highly dislike it.
could be but remember that in group situations you will have your healers healing you, and your group will be trying to cc the attackers to save you...so those 10-15 seconds are only if you are just standing there not doing anything and your group isn't either. you are basically attacking people afk.
not sure why you dislike it. archers focus fire one shots were worse in l2
I'm actually really curious to see how they'll manage to implement Bard in a game with a such a short TTK. In some games it takes almost that long to cast a single buff. I can't imagine being told that I might not even have time for one song before a battle's nearly over, but if Bards don't have a meaningful casting time, what does that look like? Narbash only really has one buff, so he isn't a great example. I'm quite curious to see how the team intends to make Bards effective without relegating us entirely to 'buffbot' status, or rewriting the archetype into something else entirely.
wtf is that game where you need 10-15 seconds to cast ONE buff? o-o
I've stated this before but ultra low kill times indicates that there is a design issue, and dps numbers are probably not in check.
Cap on you suggesting they don't know what they are designing lol.
Plenty of game developers "know" what they are designing, but turn out to be horrible decisions.
Guess we will all test it and see how it feels. Their direction is fine, not expecting the Alpha to be fully balanced. Though ill see what my feed back on the feel is when I'm able to actually help with the testing. For now i want to see what they bring to the table.
ok people here who havent experienced the 30-60 secs ttk are complaining that things are worse now. how can you know if you haven't experienced it?
since the game is being balanced around 8 men parties with 1 of each archetype, you can safely assume (unless steven says otherwise) that the ttk is for one party attacking one target (one player). with a 30 seconds ttk, I could be a healer getting focus fired, go to my kitchen to get some water, come back and my character is still at half hp. fights would probably never end unless you drastically reduced healing.
being attacked by a full party and not dying for at least 10 seconds gives the player enough time to react, get heals, etc. 30-60 ttk is just for the carebears who wanna run away when they are gathering and get attacked =D
I've stated this before but ultra low kill times indicates that there is a design issue, and dps numbers are probably not in check.
Cap on you suggesting they don't know what they are designing lol.
Plenty of game developers "know" what they are designing, but turn out to be horrible decisions.
Guess we will all test it and see how it feels. Their direction is fine, not expecting the Alpha to be fully balanced. Though ill see what my feed back on the feel is when I'm able to actually help with the testing. For now i want to see what they bring to the table.
I do wonder if the large scale battles are driving this low ttk design. Faster deaths = less strain
not sure why you dislike it. archers focus fire one shots were worse in l2
I dislike it for that exact reason. I saw snipes in the caravan showcase, I heard "10s on dps vs dps 1v1s" and then Steven literally snaps his fingers and says "kill a target real quick" when talking about group vs group.
It's exactly because I know how archers worked in L2 and how assist-kills worked there, and I know that this is also exactly what Steven had in mind when giving that example, that I'm worried about ttks.
No one can heal you or buff you or do whatever, when a stealthed rogue hits you with a backstab right as his ranger and mage cast their big bursts. And you're the healer in this case, so you're the first to drop (just as it was in L2) and unless we get a "blessed rez scroll" from L2 - ain't no one rezzing you in time.
And I'm sure you know what kind of meta L2 had when archers could easily assist-kill some dudes from a mile away And even there L2 usually depended on good buffs, good gear and high crit values to accomplish this, and otherwise the ttk was lower. Here Steven explicitly states they current plan and explains party pvp as "*snap* and a target is dead, if you have enough skill to pick the same target and talk in discord".
not sure why you dislike it. archers focus fire one shots were worse in l2
I dislike it for that exact reason. I saw snipes in the caravan showcase, I heard "10s on dps vs dps 1v1s" and then Steven literally snaps his fingers and says "kill a target real quick" when talking about group vs group.
It's exactly because I know how archers worked in L2 and how assist-kills worked there, and I know that this is also exactly what Steven had in mind when giving that example, that I'm worried about ttks.
No one can heal you or buff you or do whatever, when a stealthed rogue hits you with a backstab right as his ranger and mage cast their big bursts. And you're the healer in this case, so you're the first to drop (just as it was in L2) and unless we get a "blessed rez scroll" from L2 - ain't no one rezzing you in time.
And I'm sure you know what kind of meta L2 had when archers could easily assist-kill some dudes from a mile away And even there L2 usually depended on good buffs, good gear and high crit values to accomplish this, and otherwise the ttk was lower. Here Steven explicitly states they current plan and explains party pvp as "*snap* and a target is dead, if you have enough skill to pick the same target and talk in discord".
well I said unless steven specifies it. if he did at the stream, then yeah that's different. i will watch it later.
unless steven specifies it, everything regarding balance is supposed to be round 8 men parties with 1 of each archetype, since that's the last info we have...
well I said unless steven specifies it. if he did at the stream, then yeah that's different. i will watch it later.
unless steven specifies it, everything regarding balance is supposed to be round 8 men parties with 1 of each archetype, since that's the last info we have...
Just check out the clip. It's 30 secs. It tells you all you need to know, which is "this is L2's party v party design".
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
well I said unless steven specifies it. if he did at the stream, then yeah that's different. i will watch it later.
unless steven specifies it, everything regarding balance is supposed to be round 8 men parties with 1 of each archetype, since that's the last info we have...
Just check out the clip. It's 30 secs. It tells you all you need to know, which is "this is L2's party v party design".
The Time to Kill (TTK) in player-versus-player combat varied a lot in Lineage 2 (L2) depending on several factors such as character builds, class roles, and situational awareness.
The following is my memory, albeit from quite some time ago:
Ranged vs. Close-Range Classes: In L2, classes that specialize in ranged damage typically perform better at a distance, dealing substantial damage before opponents can close in and had to stay that way as up close they were fragile and could not get off rounds. In contrast, melee classes excel in close combat, often overwhelming ranged classes if they manage to get close enough.
Glass Cannon Archer vs. Glass Cannon Archer: When two archers with high damage but low durability faced each other, the encounters were usually quick. If one archer catches the other off guard, the target could have been eliminated in just a few shots, typically within 2-3 seconds. And grossly overpowered, then one shot.
Strong build Archer vs. Glass Cannon Archer: A duel between a sturdily built archer and a glass cannon archer hinges significantly on who initiates the attack and the tactics employed. Such matchups can result in battles lasting anywhere from 5 to 20 seconds.
Tank vs. Tank: Duels between tanks, classes characterized by high defense and health, were protracted, often lasting from 30 seconds up to several minutes. These battles tended to be endurance tests, as both sides have substantial staying power.
Archer vs. Tank: This matchup was particularly drawn out, with one experience of reaching up to 20 minutes in and had to give up as no win. Tank cannot catch the kiting archer and the archer could not do sufficient damage. If both were skilled and outdoors, then nil win.. If indoors it was usually in the tanks favor.
Group Combat Dynamics: In L2, group PvP showcased the strategic depth of the game. The interplay between different classes in a team setting significantly affected the outcome, highlighting the importance of well-coordinated team strategies and role fulfillment.
These details are specific to the dynamics and mechanics of L2, reflecting how the game’s class-based system influences PvP combat outcomes:
There was no expectation of every class being able to kill every other class fairly.
Apples with apples only.
There was no expectation of balance between classes.
PvP solo or duo was limited to the certain classes only and that was accepted by the community.
Group pvp success was often determined by the class makeup of the groups and the skill and team work.
From that experience, as a generalization the TTK being proposed sounds about right IF it has the dynamic anything like above.
There is a difference between direct ttk (2 characters face-tanking hits until each other dies) and an actual practical ttk in terms of how difficult it is to apply damage againat skilled players and how long a fight actually lasts. I think Intrepid's original goal of a roughly 60 sec ttk was in the context of desiring tactical and skill based fights, including things like dodging, movement, defense, etc.; instead of talking in terms of just direct damage ttk- so you can still have all of this even with a fast direct ttk (less than 60 seconds), as long as there are tactical choices and pre-requisistes that gate you from applying that burst damage against a skilled opponent. So I think maybe not much has actually changed in this regard other than the semantics and re-framing of what Intrepid actually now means by "ttk", since we might still have those drawn out fights even if you can kill someone relatively quickly once you pin them down from a tactical standpoint, even if Intrepid is now referring to ttk being a lot faster, because they might now be talking in terms of the "raw, face-tanky, direct" ttk, rather than how long an overall fight might play out.
ok I just watched the whole thing and it seems to me that people are leaving out important details that steven mentioned in this thread.
steven said ttk in 1v1 will be around 10-15 seconds up to 30 seconds depending on what classes are fighting. fights with tanks and clerics will take longer, and dps vs dps will be fairly short fights.
when he talked about group fights, he didn't mention 8v8. he said organized group, target assist and RAID calling can have multiple dps's take out a target real quick. that is to be expected if you have all the dps in a raid target you. you have a lot of people clicking the same person at the same time, that person should die. so raid and 8 man party arent the same.
also, thinking about it a bit logically, if the ttk is 10 seconds, lets say in a dps vs dps fight, how many skills or button presses is that? if one dps can kill another one in 10 seconds, lets say 1 skill per second, 4 dps in a party shouldn't be able to evaporate a target in 1 second (4 skills, 1 skill per dps), this should give time to get heals. also not all classes will fire their skills at the exact same speed and people wont click at the exact same time. you see someone getting hit, put a shield on them or start heal spamming etc.
even in l2 you could still survive if your party reacted properly and your bishop heal spammed you (unless gear diff was too big).
when he talked about group fights, he didn't mention 8v8. he said organized group, target assist and RAID calling can have multiple dps's take out a target real quick.
That is some high grade copium right there, considering what he said, imo
when he talked about group fights, he didn't mention 8v8. he said organized group, target assist and RAID calling can have multiple dps's take out a target real quick.
That is some high grade copium right there, considering what he said, imo
Well, fortunately, we have a really direct quote now, so that's about all that's needed for the time being.
I wonder if it matters/counts as feedback to Intrepid that people keep having the 'Well maybe you're just interpreting it as short!' reaction...
I feel like he was pretty unambiguous this time, and yet, here we are still.
Nothing wrong with that ttk. I would say that's about where most other MMOs fall (10-30 seconds) that I've played besides The Old Republic and NeverWinter. High ttk makes fights drag on forever and dumbs combat down. It becomes a battle of attrition and is just flat out boring. Glad they made the right decision
I feel like he was pretty unambiguous this time, and yet, here we are still.
It's the classic situation of "I believe this and have this reasoning behind that belief, so here's how I can interpret Steven's words to fit my belief".
To me going directly from 1v1s to raid v some smaller group (namely singular targets) is kinda illogical. So when I hear "group play" I don't think "raid group". I then apply that assumption to my bias of L2 and Steven's use of "*snap* the target is dead real quick" and I'm immediately reminded of that exact situation in party v party situations.
Depraved concentrated on "raid call" phrase and thought that Steven meant "an entire raid is trying to kill a single person". And while those situations do definitely happen - they're way rarer, simply because you play in a group way more than in a whole raid. But this assumption aligns with Depraved belief that having a 1s ttk in an assist-kill situation is not a thing that'll happen, so his mind clung onto the "raid call" and justified his reasoning that way.
The only way it could be clearer is if Steven used very precise words in very precise ways, but that'd be some near-corpo speak, instead of a more conversational setup (even if all of these questions were prescreened).
Also the decision to fight back and become a combatent when someone attacks you becomes severely limited as the jump on a player provides a significant advantage.
Also the decision to fight back and become a combatent when someone attacks you becomes severely limited as the jump on a player provides a significant advantage.
And what a jump it will be. Looking at you, Fighters...
Wait... what do I sub for A2 start now...? I guess I gotta be an Oracle?
Gotta be careful not to build up any doldrum feelings before Shadow Disciple comes out and I can actually give any TTK feedback...
when he talked about group fights, he didn't mention 8v8. he said organized group, target assist and RAID calling can have multiple dps's take out a target real quick.
That is some high grade copium right there, considering what he said, imo
=_=
he said RAID calls...implying a whole raid of players, not an 8 men party.
edit: anyway I talked about this about 2 years ago in a topic of action combat vs tab target. one of the things I argued in favor of action over tab was this same issue. a bunch of archers could just click you and press f1 then you die, nothing you can do about it.
since it seems it's gonna be that way, I'm ok with a raid or multiple parties clicking one person and killing him as long as one party cant evaporate 1 person instantly by just pressing f1 at the same time. i suppose people will really have to learn how to play and stay behind the tank xd
I feel like he was pretty unambiguous this time, and yet, here we are still.
It's the classic situation of "I believe this and have this reasoning behind that belief, so here's how I can interpret Steven's words to fit my belief".
To me going directly from 1v1s to raid v some smaller group (namely singular targets) is kinda illogical. So when I hear "group play" I don't think "raid group". I then apply that assumption to my bias of L2 and Steven's use of "*snap* the target is dead real quick" and I'm immediately reminded of that exact situation in party v party situations.
Depraved concentrated on "raid call" phrase and thought that Steven meant "an entire raid is trying to kill a single person". And while those situations do definitely happen - they're way rarer, simply because you play in a group way more than in a whole raid. But this assumption aligns with Depraved belief that having a 1s ttk in an assist-kill situation is not a thing that'll happen, so his mind clung onto the "raid call" and justified his reasoning that way.
The only way it could be clearer is if Steven used very precise words in very precise ways, but that'd be some near-corpo speak, instead of a more conversational setup (even if all of these questions were prescreened).
bruh... don't tell me you never had macros of the enemies doombringer sand the whole command channel of dozens if not hundreds of people wouldn't target the same dude to kill him during barakiel or epic bosses fight.
and I never said it wouldn't happen. i said it will in a raid or bigger. 1 raid of 40 = 5 parties of 8. each party has 4 dps that's 20 dps hitting the same person. its gonna happen duringnode wars, sieges, open world bosses, etc.
party vs party not so much. think about it logically, the game is made so that 1 healer can keep a party alive. if party vs party you get one shotted, then whats the point of healer? all you gonna do is revive then?
now, I'm not saying that maybe a party of 6 archers 1 bard 1 cleric cant just one shot people who arent tanks left and right, maybe. but the game is being balanced around 1 of each archetypes. consider that 2/4 dps are melee, in most situations an archer and a mage wont be able to press f1 on a target and 1 shot him...unless you are willing to say that an archer and a mage will be able to 1 shot that person.
warrior and dagger are coming, you have time to react to that, use shields, aggression, etc, etc. one person gets targetted by all 4 dps? well that's 4 skills in a second, you can heal. maybe you wont be able to perma heal that but will extend that players life and hopefully your team will cc the enemies or whatever.
Also the decision to fight back and become a combatent when someone attacks you becomes severely limited as the jump on a player provides a significant advantage.
id say its worse for the person who attacks first, because you could get one shotted (if 4 dps can reallyone shot someone by presing f1). if that's the case, you probs only wanna flag with the tank.
I think people doesn't realize how long 15sec is. I assume that it's about a target which not evade.
I'll take wow as en example : if a target isn't moving or defending, you'll kill it really fast, 10 to 20sec maybe if he's not a tank or you aren't a healer.
The thing is that in PVP, you never let the opponent hit you so easily, and use countermeasures. What's more, the game does not provide stunlock mechanics.
what's more, it gives interest to defensive builds in PVP. Because a steel can with a heal will be able to push into the opposing lines, and mitigate their damage. If the TTK is too high, everyone can go to the opposing lines and come back without asking too many questions.
Comments
Cap on you suggesting they don't know what they are designing lol.
this isn't final, the same way the 30 secs ttk wasn't final. they are doing internal testing and will adjust according to player testing.
and how is 10 seconds getting one shotted? unless you mean you put 1 dot on the opponent that kills that person after 10 seconds of ticking lol.
could be but remember that in group situations you will have your healers healing you, and your group will be trying to cc the attackers to save you...so those 10-15 seconds are only if you are just standing there not doing anything and your group isn't either. you are basically attacking people afk.
not sure why you dislike it. archers focus fire one shots were worse in l2
wtf is that game where you need 10-15 seconds to cast ONE buff? o-o
Plenty of game developers "know" what they are designing, but turn out to be horrible decisions.
Guess we will all test it and see how it feels. Their direction is fine, not expecting the Alpha to be fully balanced. Though ill see what my feed back on the feel is when I'm able to actually help with the testing. For now i want to see what they bring to the table.
since the game is being balanced around 8 men parties with 1 of each archetype, you can safely assume (unless steven says otherwise) that the ttk is for one party attacking one target (one player). with a 30 seconds ttk, I could be a healer getting focus fired, go to my kitchen to get some water, come back and my character is still at half hp. fights would probably never end unless you drastically reduced healing.
being attacked by a full party and not dying for at least 10 seconds gives the player enough time to react, get heals, etc. 30-60 ttk is just for the carebears who wanna run away when they are gathering and get attacked =D
I do wonder if the large scale battles are driving this low ttk design. Faster deaths = less strain
It's exactly because I know how archers worked in L2 and how assist-kills worked there, and I know that this is also exactly what Steven had in mind when giving that example, that I'm worried about ttks.
No one can heal you or buff you or do whatever, when a stealthed rogue hits you with a backstab right as his ranger and mage cast their big bursts. And you're the healer in this case, so you're the first to drop (just as it was in L2) and unless we get a "blessed rez scroll" from L2 - ain't no one rezzing you in time.
And I'm sure you know what kind of meta L2 had when archers could easily assist-kill some dudes from a mile away
well I said unless steven specifies it. if he did at the stream, then yeah that's different. i will watch it later.
unless steven specifies it, everything regarding balance is supposed to be round 8 men parties with 1 of each archetype, since that's the last info we have...
The Time to Kill (TTK) in player-versus-player combat varied a lot in Lineage 2 (L2) depending on several factors such as character builds, class roles, and situational awareness.
The following is my memory, albeit from quite some time ago:
Ranged vs. Close-Range Classes: In L2, classes that specialize in ranged damage typically perform better at a distance, dealing substantial damage before opponents can close in and had to stay that way as up close they were fragile and could not get off rounds. In contrast, melee classes excel in close combat, often overwhelming ranged classes if they manage to get close enough.
Glass Cannon Archer vs. Glass Cannon Archer: When two archers with high damage but low durability faced each other, the encounters were usually quick. If one archer catches the other off guard, the target could have been eliminated in just a few shots, typically within 2-3 seconds. And grossly overpowered, then one shot.
Strong build Archer vs. Glass Cannon Archer: A duel between a sturdily built archer and a glass cannon archer hinges significantly on who initiates the attack and the tactics employed. Such matchups can result in battles lasting anywhere from 5 to 20 seconds.
Tank vs. Tank: Duels between tanks, classes characterized by high defense and health, were protracted, often lasting from 30 seconds up to several minutes. These battles tended to be endurance tests, as both sides have substantial staying power.
Archer vs. Tank: This matchup was particularly drawn out, with one experience of reaching up to 20 minutes in and had to give up as no win. Tank cannot catch the kiting archer and the archer could not do sufficient damage. If both were skilled and outdoors, then nil win.. If indoors it was usually in the tanks favor.
Group Combat Dynamics: In L2, group PvP showcased the strategic depth of the game. The interplay between different classes in a team setting significantly affected the outcome, highlighting the importance of well-coordinated team strategies and role fulfillment.
These details are specific to the dynamics and mechanics of L2, reflecting how the game’s class-based system influences PvP combat outcomes:
From that experience, as a generalization the TTK being proposed sounds about right IF it has the dynamic anything like above.
ok I just watched the whole thing and it seems to me that people are leaving out important details that steven mentioned in this thread.
steven said ttk in 1v1 will be around 10-15 seconds up to 30 seconds depending on what classes are fighting. fights with tanks and clerics will take longer, and dps vs dps will be fairly short fights.
when he talked about group fights, he didn't mention 8v8. he said organized group, target assist and RAID calling can have multiple dps's take out a target real quick. that is to be expected if you have all the dps in a raid target you. you have a lot of people clicking the same person at the same time, that person should die. so raid and 8 man party arent the same.
also, thinking about it a bit logically, if the ttk is 10 seconds, lets say in a dps vs dps fight, how many skills or button presses is that? if one dps can kill another one in 10 seconds, lets say 1 skill per second, 4 dps in a party shouldn't be able to evaporate a target in 1 second (4 skills, 1 skill per dps), this should give time to get heals. also not all classes will fire their skills at the exact same speed and people wont click at the exact same time. you see someone getting hit, put a shield on them or start heal spamming etc.
even in l2 you could still survive if your party reacted properly and your bishop heal spammed you (unless gear diff was too big).
That's low.
Well, fortunately, we have a really direct quote now, so that's about all that's needed for the time being.
I wonder if it matters/counts as feedback to Intrepid that people keep having the 'Well maybe you're just interpreting it as short!' reaction...
I feel like he was pretty unambiguous this time, and yet, here we are still.
yea same, hate it, hopefully we will get to test and provide feedback during A2
To me going directly from 1v1s to raid v some smaller group (namely singular targets) is kinda illogical. So when I hear "group play" I don't think "raid group". I then apply that assumption to my bias of L2 and Steven's use of "*snap* the target is dead real quick" and I'm immediately reminded of that exact situation in party v party situations.
Depraved concentrated on "raid call" phrase and thought that Steven meant "an entire raid is trying to kill a single person". And while those situations do definitely happen - they're way rarer, simply because you play in a group way more than in a whole raid. But this assumption aligns with Depraved belief that having a 1s ttk in an assist-kill situation is not a thing that'll happen, so his mind clung onto the "raid call" and justified his reasoning that way.
The only way it could be clearer is if Steven used very precise words in very precise ways, but that'd be some near-corpo speak, instead of a more conversational setup (even if all of these questions were prescreened).
And what a jump it will be. Looking at you, Fighters...
Wait... what do I sub for A2 start now...? I guess I gotta be an Oracle?
Gotta be careful not to build up any doldrum feelings before Shadow Disciple comes out and I can actually give any TTK feedback...
=_=
he said RAID calls...implying a whole raid of players, not an 8 men party.
edit: anyway I talked about this about 2 years ago in a topic of action combat vs tab target. one of the things I argued in favor of action over tab was this same issue. a bunch of archers could just click you and press f1 then you die, nothing you can do about it.
since it seems it's gonna be that way, I'm ok with a raid or multiple parties clicking one person and killing him as long as one party cant evaporate 1 person instantly by just pressing f1 at the same time. i suppose people will really have to learn how to play and stay behind the tank xd
bruh... don't tell me you never had macros of the enemies doombringer sand the whole command channel of dozens if not hundreds of people wouldn't target the same dude to kill him during barakiel or epic bosses fight.
and I never said it wouldn't happen. i said it will in a raid or bigger. 1 raid of 40 = 5 parties of 8. each party has 4 dps that's 20 dps hitting the same person. its gonna happen duringnode wars, sieges, open world bosses, etc.
party vs party not so much. think about it logically, the game is made so that 1 healer can keep a party alive. if party vs party you get one shotted, then whats the point of healer? all you gonna do is revive then?
now, I'm not saying that maybe a party of 6 archers 1 bard 1 cleric cant just one shot people who arent tanks left and right, maybe. but the game is being balanced around 1 of each archetypes. consider that 2/4 dps are melee, in most situations an archer and a mage wont be able to press f1 on a target and 1 shot him...unless you are willing to say that an archer and a mage will be able to 1 shot that person.
warrior and dagger are coming, you have time to react to that, use shields, aggression, etc, etc. one person gets targetted by all 4 dps? well that's 4 skills in a second, you can heal. maybe you wont be able to perma heal that but will extend that players life and hopefully your team will cc the enemies or whatever.
id say its worse for the person who attacks first, because you could get one shotted (if 4 dps can reallyone shot someone by presing f1). if that's the case, you probs only wanna flag with the tank.
I think people doesn't realize how long 15sec is. I assume that it's about a target which not evade.
I'll take wow as en example : if a target isn't moving or defending, you'll kill it really fast, 10 to 20sec maybe if he's not a tank or you aren't a healer.
The thing is that in PVP, you never let the opponent hit you so easily, and use countermeasures. What's more, the game does not provide stunlock mechanics.
what's more, it gives interest to defensive builds in PVP. Because a steel can with a heal will be able to push into the opposing lines, and mitigate their damage. If the TTK is too high, everyone can go to the opposing lines and come back without asking too many questions.