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Dual Wielding - it sounds like both 1H weapons need to be modified through crafting first?
Nerror
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
If you go to exactly the 2 hour mark in the VOD:
Steven says this:
So my take from that is that you can't just grab any two 1H weapons and start dual-wielding them. You need to see a crafter first.
This can go two ways:
If they go with the second option, can they be separated again? If you want to swap one of the weapons? And what about enchanting? Does that apply to the pair or do you pick which weapon to enchant? And if they can be separated again, do they both just lose the enchantment level?
I think the first option is the simpler method, but it makes me wonder about the need to craft or use that recipe on the intended weapons, so I think the second option is quite likely as well.
Thoughts?
Steven says this:
However, the way we're servicing dual weapons is that they will occupy your main hand and off-hand, and you will have a specific recipe which includes the previously completed one-handed weapons that are intending to be dual'ed.
So my take from that is that you can't just grab any two 1H weapons and start dual-wielding them. You need to see a crafter first.
This can go two ways:
- Each individual weapon simply gets the option to be dual wielded after the crafter modifies it. I wonder if there are any stat changes with that? Because otherwise, why the need to modify them in the first place?
- Or, both weapons you want to dual wield get combined into a locked pair, essentially functioning as one item in inventory, but once equipped takes up both hands the same way a 2H weapon does.
If they go with the second option, can they be separated again? If you want to swap one of the weapons? And what about enchanting? Does that apply to the pair or do you pick which weapon to enchant? And if they can be separated again, do they both just lose the enchantment level?
I think the first option is the simpler method, but it makes me wonder about the need to craft or use that recipe on the intended weapons, so I think the second option is quite likely as well.
Thoughts?
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Comments
Implies some other stuff I also hate.
But they should do whatever they can.
Here's a list of L2's duals (in an earlier version). It's a pretty long list
https://l2db.ru/items/weapons/dual/interlude/
In L2 did they inherit the stats from both, and just combined them like 1+1=2?
Btw, L2 didn't need a player crafter for lower lvl duals, so there's a tiiiiny chance we'll have an npc that can combine some weapons into one duals for you (just like we have a processing npcs).
I see what they're angling for but the fact that it can't just be "pick up weapon A and B and if you have the requirements for both you can just do it" seems strange in a game that's intended to be as freeform as Ashes is.
its not a tech limitation or anything, its design and balance.
Maybe if there were a drastic difference in the rarity of the items? If we assume for this hypothetical that rarity goes (common to rare) white > green > blue > purple > orange, if you combine a weapon with another that is more than 1 rarity in either direction you would be unable to separate them (Combining a purple with a green or a blue with a white or orange). On the reverse side, if they were within one rarity (Combining a blue and purple, or blue and green) you would be able to separate them again.
I can see losing an individual enchantment on both weapons, had then been enchanted prior to combining, and the pair combined together resulting in no enchantment. As well as losing the enchantment on the pair should you separate them. I think that would be appropriate, as you would be altering the item from its current form.
Complicating simple things doesn’t create depth, it just adds complication.
As I stated on my stream while you brought this up I think that weapon skill trees being separate from dual wielding is good. Being able to use your one-handed sword skill tree and your one-handed mace skill tree to use weapon skills as a prerequisite to the dual wielding tree was my initial thought. If that's what he means by "recipe" I think that is probably fine. I'll probably make a video to better explain my thought process. I'm trying to type it out and I don't think it does the conversation justice.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
If it turns out that you can dual wield only 1 type of weapon, I am done.
well, dual wielding will replace your off hand item. if you weren't dual wielding, you would still have to get 2 items for your hands, presumably the best items you can get. these 2 items will be either a sword and a shield, or 2 swords.
after creating a dual wielded weapon, you could just add the enchants to that one, instead of adding them to each individual weapon before the fusion. i mean, you are supposed to think before hand if you will use a sword and a shield, or 2 swords.
That's like, the biggest 'issue' though.
When I equip a Mace in I normally just... equip a second one. Or I equip a shield. And I just change based on which I need. Any obstacle between 'I am dual wielding... now I'm single wielding with a shield' seems unnecessarily weird to me, obviously I'm biased.
Even if this was a durability thing, I still don't 'get it', but I'd bet it's a durability thing somehow.
its just a balance thing I suppose.
instead of using 2 of the best 1 handed weapons with op effects (aka you get the effect x 2), you just get a new weapon with a different effect (it could be just x1.5 of the 1 handed weapon) and a different weapon tree.
imagine having x2 weapon tree of the same to have a higher chance to land bleed or whatever (I supposed they could add dr, but they could just add dual wielding how it is now).
Seriously, the only items that should come in joint pairs are footwear and hand wearable. Boots and gloves. And for all that is holy, no mismatching socks!
YOU'RE NOT MY MOM!
If I want to wear a red sock and a blue sock I should be able to knit one of each, combine them into a locked pair, and over-enchant them as I see fit.
I see what you mean, but the resulting DW weapon itself won't be soulbound at least.
But where did L2 got this concept from?
My guess is that the game had a dedicated weapon slot and a shield slot.
And this binding was a programing trick to make the 2nd single handed weapon look as if is being placed into the shield slot. But actually was like a 2 handed weapon.
Also being implemented this way, shield dual wielding is automatically excluded because there is no 2 handed shield in the game.
Well actually in Ashes of Creation Steven explicitly is against mismatching socks. Player freedom starts at killing noobs as a demonic monkey looking tulnar with a wand as a fighter and ends at 'but don't do it unfashionably'. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Dye_cosmetics
Given other games have better off handing with better player expression, I don't really think this is a balance thing. It's more likely that Steven just 'really wants to micromanage this specific part because he has a really clear idea of what his vision is for the thing' and less a 'big picture' thing like balance. But I only say this because I have a very clear idea of what the proc system COULD be and have very high standards as to what it SHOULD feel like and more freedom in dual wielding definitely enhances what that core combat looks like.
I'll keep advocating for AoC to think about https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Skillchains since even FFXI only added them at the end of their development process. It really hammers home the freedom of expression meets teamwork balance Ashes keeps saying it aspires to.
Sounds like they have to be married first. 🧐
So...in corruption, if you dropped one weapon would you drop both in dual wielding or would you drop the main hand weapon each time? Seems like a high chore for dual wield. We'll see how effective dual wield will be.
Hmm, then I guess the procs component part is such a major aspect of combat that it can't be left out of a very structured frame. They've rejected the options of having only the main hand weapon to proc; the one where it's at a fixed ratio (let say main hand procs 66% of the time, off-hand 33%, or 50/50%); the one where both weapons attacks are tracked individually and procs according to spec options in their relative weapon tree, or maybe the joining recipe is just how the system is fed one of these rules, or something similar.
If a character was using two weapons of the same type (with the same proc effect) it wouldn't matter as much, but if they procs different effect, it impact how it interact with the class augment and group synergy. Balancing meaningfulness of choice vs. power.
Kind of a roundabout way to solve this, and still feel weird to me.
Am I getting it right?
Feels like Steven just went with the same design, rather than trying to build the entire game's combat around the ability to have 2 completely separate weapons with separate effects and with separate passives for said weapons.
Not quite sure why 2-handed shields matter here. Theoretically Intrepid could still let us combine 2 shields as a duals.