Evre1lovechat wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Make some sense
Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.
Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have... I believe the meme is... "A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!" But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good. I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.
Evre1lovechat wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Evre1lovechat wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Make some sense no u. post pvp or don't reply xdd https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&search_query=Epic+pw+relentless+revenge
Depraved wrote: » Evre1lovechat wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Make some sense no u. post pvp or don't reply xdd
Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have... I believe the meme is... "A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!" But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good. I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too. give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation. so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction)
Individuated Soul wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Aszkalon wrote: » GreatPhilisopher wrote: » According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK 15 T(ime) T(o) K(ill) ? Doesn't sound short to me. 6 Seconds and below are short. This is manageable, is it not ? o_Ô That depends on the way you choose to do the math. But either way, at least one post has given some details why certain community members would want a long one.https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59292/reasons-to-have-high-ttk This thread is, so far, mostly people disagreeing on how we should 'do the math'. Does a potential 15 second solo TTK mean that TTK when focused down by an enemy group is less than (let's use your number) 6 seconds, or will the combat provide ways to keep that TTK up? Some people/game styles also can't achieve actual synergies in under 10 seconds. You do realize the 10-15 TTK given is based on both parties having equal item levels. Disparity will only exacerbate the issue - i.e. shorter TTK values going below 10.
Azherae wrote: » Aszkalon wrote: » GreatPhilisopher wrote: » According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK 15 T(ime) T(o) K(ill) ? Doesn't sound short to me. 6 Seconds and below are short. This is manageable, is it not ? o_Ô That depends on the way you choose to do the math. But either way, at least one post has given some details why certain community members would want a long one.https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59292/reasons-to-have-high-ttk This thread is, so far, mostly people disagreeing on how we should 'do the math'. Does a potential 15 second solo TTK mean that TTK when focused down by an enemy group is less than (let's use your number) 6 seconds, or will the combat provide ways to keep that TTK up? Some people/game styles also can't achieve actual synergies in under 10 seconds.
Aszkalon wrote: » GreatPhilisopher wrote: » According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK 15 T(ime) T(o) K(ill) ? Doesn't sound short to me. 6 Seconds and below are short. This is manageable, is it not ? o_Ô
GreatPhilisopher wrote: » According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have... I believe the meme is... "A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!" But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good. I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too. give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation. so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction) No, as I said, you're right. I only have reasons if I make certain assumptions, and there's no reason to make them. I'm personally pretty sure that if I work 'backward' from a 6s TTK to most economy outcomes, it will land in a space of gaming I don't personally like, but it could be something you are really happy with, since I obviously count you as someone who sees the economy as 'a reason to bash other people's faces in'.
Individuated Soul wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have... I believe the meme is... "A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!" But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good. I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too. give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation. so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction) I don't need to taste a cake with poop as ingredient to know that its going to taste like shit. Logic and inference can enlighten many things. Do we technically know how the system will feel? No. Can we deduce how it must operate given shorter TTKs? I think yes. Spawn rates, mob density, feel, impacts to decision tree gameplay, and more all are impacted from TTK design. The conversation/debate is worthwhile, and pretending like this is an arbitrary point doesn't move the needle.
Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have... I believe the meme is... "A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!" But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good. I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too. give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation. so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction) I don't need to taste a cake with poop as ingredient to know that its going to taste like shit. Logic and inference can enlighten many things. Do we technically know how the system will feel? No. Can we deduce how it must operate given shorter TTKs? I think yes. Spawn rates, mob density, feel, impacts to decision tree gameplay, and more all are impacted from TTK design. The conversation/debate is worthwhile, and pretending like this is an arbitrary point doesn't move the needle. I've met some freaks out there who eat poop anyways you arent getting it (even though you kind of mentioned it). its a personal feelings thing. for example, I like short ttk on mobs (most mobs, not talking about special mobs). to me, 2 seconds ttk on mobs is the most fun. it makes me go to the limit, I have to think about the path I take to kill all the mobs in the spot, try to drive other players out of the area by killing stuff, optimize how I kill mobs, etc then I get to spend more time fighting mobs than resting. but my first couple of mmorpg had low ttk on mobs (if u have gear) so to me, that's what's fun. maybe someone from eq or something will enjoy a longer ttk, 30-60 seconds, then rest. i find that boring. fight 1 min then sit for 3 minutes. but that's exactly my point, its based on personal preference and that preference is based on previous games players have played in the past. from the players perspective and without having more info about the game, pretty much the only argument for ttk wether long or short is "ewww yucky". to me long ttk Is eww yucky, and for someone else a short ttk is eww yucky.
Individuated Soul wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Individuated Soul wrote: » I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example. I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP): "6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate. Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now." see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun. i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players. Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have... I believe the meme is... "A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!" But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good. I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too. give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation. so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction) I don't need to taste a cake with poop as ingredient to know that its going to taste like shit. Logic and inference can enlighten many things. Do we technically know how the system will feel? No. Can we deduce how it must operate given shorter TTKs? I think yes. Spawn rates, mob density, feel, impacts to decision tree gameplay, and more all are impacted from TTK design. The conversation/debate is worthwhile, and pretending like this is an arbitrary point doesn't move the needle. I've met some freaks out there who eat poop anyways you arent getting it (even though you kind of mentioned it). its a personal feelings thing. for example, I like short ttk on mobs (most mobs, not talking about special mobs). to me, 2 seconds ttk on mobs is the most fun. it makes me go to the limit, I have to think about the path I take to kill all the mobs in the spot, try to drive other players out of the area by killing stuff, optimize how I kill mobs, etc then I get to spend more time fighting mobs than resting. but my first couple of mmorpg had low ttk on mobs (if u have gear) so to me, that's what's fun. maybe someone from eq or something will enjoy a longer ttk, 30-60 seconds, then rest. i find that boring. fight 1 min then sit for 3 minutes. but that's exactly my point, its based on personal preference and that preference is based on previous games players have played in the past. from the players perspective and without having more info about the game, pretty much the only argument for ttk wether long or short is "ewww yucky". to me long ttk Is eww yucky, and for someone else a short ttk is eww yucky. I understand your preference, but reducing it to either long or short is a false dilemma fallacy. I can agree that 60 seconds is too long, and advocate that 10-15 is too short. Its about finding that sweet spot, and I believe Steven's vision (on this issue) isn't it.
Mag7spy wrote: » How are we back on ttk for mobs again. Normal weak mobs dying in 6 seconds is normal be it new mmorpg or old ones. (Yes there is the super old ones with tanky mobs.) There is 0 mention about elite mobs or harder type mobs meant to be dying in 6 seconds. Swtor is a older mmorpg and you can see mobs dying quickly within 6 seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f568csT6pC0 At this point im guessing people are just complaining to complain or they are from Patheon where it takes like 20 secs to kill a rat.
Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » How are we back on ttk for mobs again. Normal weak mobs dying in 6 seconds is normal be it new mmorpg or old ones. (Yes there is the super old ones with tanky mobs.) There is 0 mention about elite mobs or harder type mobs meant to be dying in 6 seconds. Swtor is a older mmorpg and you can see mobs dying quickly within 6 seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f568csT6pC0 At this point im guessing people are just complaining to complain or they are from Patheon where it takes like 20 secs to kill a rat. Yeah, we are jumping around a bit. We'll just have to see how it all feels in a few months.
GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: » I don't think the context is that necessary. PvP video games have been around since 1991, and 15 second rounds of Street Fighter are deeply unsatisfying. Going even lower than that for, as Steven stated, even gear levels is even worse. Maybe take a moment to look into games about fighting one another, and use them as a measuring stick for what feels good in terms of engagement. Once you have that, gear scaling and group sizing handles the rest.
Dygz wrote: » RPGs should not have the same TTK as Street Fighter.
Mag7spy wrote: » GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: » I don't think the context is that necessary. PvP video games have been around since 1991, and 15 second rounds of Street Fighter are deeply unsatisfying. Going even lower than that for, as Steven stated, even gear levels is even worse. Maybe take a moment to look into games about fighting one another, and use them as a measuring stick for what feels good in terms of engagement. Once you have that, gear scaling and group sizing handles the rest. If i win in 15 secs i feel good because that means i did a big ass combo, I was clean, I was perfect lmao. Unless the person is just bad. Back to my years old figght game clips https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/mag7spy/video/112737389 Second round was won in 12 seconds and was extremely satisfying
Individuated Soul wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: » I don't think the context is that necessary. PvP video games have been around since 1991, and 15 second rounds of Street Fighter are deeply unsatisfying. Going even lower than that for, as Steven stated, even gear levels is even worse. Maybe take a moment to look into games about fighting one another, and use them as a measuring stick for what feels good in terms of engagement. Once you have that, gear scaling and group sizing handles the rest. If i win in 15 secs i feel good because that means i did a big ass combo, I was clean, I was perfect lmao. Unless the person is just bad. Back to my years old figght game clips https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/mag7spy/video/112737389 Second round was won in 12 seconds and was extremely satisfying 15 seconds is more tolerable from an average TTK, similar items core. 10 seconds average is not IMO as again you will get sub 10s kills from item disparity. It's akin to twinking brackets in Classic WoW. Stomping people with low TTK feels good, but there isn't much depth to it. Make it 15 - 20 average and I think both thought camps will be happy.
