Individuated Soul wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Ok having a moment more to think while these points are irritating me, pretty much people are trying to suggest Steven said TTK for a dps class is between 10-15 seconds and Steven is account for multiple things in that. 1. Classes supporting them with defese and peels 2. Cleric healing them 3. Classes defensive options 4. Universal defense skill tree (that is not even in a state to show yet) 5. Different team compositions 6. Kiting By those points you have to only be looking at TTK in group play, meaning TTK in solo is above 15 seconds. Which leads into why are you complaining if its above 15 seconds TTK, but then u make the arguement that if you get focused you die in under one second. These points you people bring up do not make sense and contradict yourselves. Pretty much saying anything you think will stick but not actually being honest about the whole situation. The video clearly refers to single player 1v1 when giving the 10-15. He then talks about group play and target assist killing very quickly. Not sure why you keep getting confused on this.
Mag7spy wrote: » Ok having a moment more to think while these points are irritating me, pretty much people are trying to suggest Steven said TTK for a dps class is between 10-15 seconds and Steven is account for multiple things in that. 1. Classes supporting them with defese and peels 2. Cleric healing them 3. Classes defensive options 4. Universal defense skill tree (that is not even in a state to show yet) 5. Different team compositions 6. Kiting By those points you have to only be looking at TTK in group play, meaning TTK in solo is above 15 seconds. Which leads into why are you complaining if its above 15 seconds TTK, but then u make the arguement that if you get focused you die in under one second. These points you people bring up do not make sense and contradict yourselves. Pretty much saying anything you think will stick but not actually being honest about the whole situation.
SunScript wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Meaning everyone has a higher TTK for a duration and why i keep mentioning this. Its going to be like wave of higher ttk based on cds and such with your tanks, healers, supports, off supports/tanks, etc. Though there will be a chance to find gaps or catch people off guard. "Meaning everyone has a higher TTK" -- Higher than what? Steven gave several examples of TTK based on different scenarios. Doing that implies they have indeed THOUGHT of different scenarios. Meaning, they are already factored for, defensive skills and all that. So higher than what? You are the epidemy of being disingenuous at this point. Please go give the quotes where he talks about all these different scenarios. You are talking out of your ass because of your bias against me and can't have a honest conversation. It is becoming more and more clear to me you didn't watch the AMA and are to busy complaining in your own headspace. There is 0 wording on synergy between classes in GROUP fights, he was talking about average of damn classes. Not how would a fighter or tank be effected by a cleric, tank or other classes working together. And how that effects their TTK. You ok there Mag? 1) You been getting hung up on this disingenuous thing for a while now, it's becoming a little weird 2) Whatever bias you think I have against you isn't important enough to me. Nothing on this forum is, at the moment 3) You quoted me and I replied with logic. By all means, please feel free to dimantle it. I appreciate the rare instances that happens correctly. I'm going to try to break this logic down as simply as possible. If there's any point you can't follow, please let me know. When a game designer presents multiple TTK values, at ANY point in time, like for example 'DPS vs DPS' and 'Tank vs Tank', that means that game designer has thought of those scenarioos individually. It follows from there they considered at least a few different variations, different encounters, classes, compositions etc. If they are considering those things and then giving values, then the classes in those scenarios, with their defining defensive and offensive skills, would be already factored for in the values given.
Mag7spy wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Meaning everyone has a higher TTK for a duration and why i keep mentioning this. Its going to be like wave of higher ttk based on cds and such with your tanks, healers, supports, off supports/tanks, etc. Though there will be a chance to find gaps or catch people off guard. "Meaning everyone has a higher TTK" -- Higher than what? Steven gave several examples of TTK based on different scenarios. Doing that implies they have indeed THOUGHT of different scenarios. Meaning, they are already factored for, defensive skills and all that. So higher than what? You are the epidemy of being disingenuous at this point. Please go give the quotes where he talks about all these different scenarios. You are talking out of your ass because of your bias against me and can't have a honest conversation. It is becoming more and more clear to me you didn't watch the AMA and are to busy complaining in your own headspace. There is 0 wording on synergy between classes in GROUP fights, he was talking about average of damn classes. Not how would a fighter or tank be effected by a cleric, tank or other classes working together. And how that effects their TTK.
SunScript wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Meaning everyone has a higher TTK for a duration and why i keep mentioning this. Its going to be like wave of higher ttk based on cds and such with your tanks, healers, supports, off supports/tanks, etc. Though there will be a chance to find gaps or catch people off guard. "Meaning everyone has a higher TTK" -- Higher than what? Steven gave several examples of TTK based on different scenarios. Doing that implies they have indeed THOUGHT of different scenarios. Meaning, they are already factored for, defensive skills and all that. So higher than what?
Mag7spy wrote: » Meaning everyone has a higher TTK for a duration and why i keep mentioning this. Its going to be like wave of higher ttk based on cds and such with your tanks, healers, supports, off supports/tanks, etc. Though there will be a chance to find gaps or catch people off guard.
Mag7spy wrote: » You can't make the argument they are including team play while saying Steven is talking about 1v1. Your arguments make 0 sense. Its full of bs.
SunScript wrote: » Depraved wrote: » SunScript wrote: » NiKr wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Do you perhaps mean something like this? No, that link is pretty much Aegis already. And Aegis' aoe also seemed to be tiny. I'm talking about a huge aoe behind the tank, that's constantly on (i.e. an aura). Well, if, as I said, people think that the 5min buff is too OP. And I related my idea to Aegis simply due to the similarities in the mechanic. The effect is simply "this gives 50 def if the target received dmg from only a single source, within the last 5s. This gives 100 def, if it was 2 sources. Etc etc scaling up to a shitton of def if a lot of sources of dmg". In other words, I want to make the attackers spread their damage, instead of all hitting one target. This would still allow for a one-shot kill, but the coordination skill required for this would be insane (or, well, it could be balanced to be insane depending on the dmg check timing values). Ah, I see. I'm just guessing here, but I think this makes party vs party scenarios with 2 tanks weird/jank. My thinking here is one brings 2 tanks to try and chain Grapple the one giving that buff away from the formation, to somewhere too far off to quickly reposition. 2 tanks are good for this, and they're also good for having a backup defender for when your first one gets grappled away. So really, what I think this does is make 2 tank the meta for pvp. Maybe even 3 tanks. What are your thoughts on this? who gonna kill? lol best pvp party will probs have 0 tanks Have you played a group pvp game where 4-5 DPS out of 8 isn't enough to do the killing (I'm not yet sure if this will be 1 Cleric or 2 Cleric meta) ? Quite fast? Considering the fact Clerics and Tanks themselves are still perfectly capable of dealing damage, just less of it?
Depraved wrote: » SunScript wrote: » NiKr wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Do you perhaps mean something like this? No, that link is pretty much Aegis already. And Aegis' aoe also seemed to be tiny. I'm talking about a huge aoe behind the tank, that's constantly on (i.e. an aura). Well, if, as I said, people think that the 5min buff is too OP. And I related my idea to Aegis simply due to the similarities in the mechanic. The effect is simply "this gives 50 def if the target received dmg from only a single source, within the last 5s. This gives 100 def, if it was 2 sources. Etc etc scaling up to a shitton of def if a lot of sources of dmg". In other words, I want to make the attackers spread their damage, instead of all hitting one target. This would still allow for a one-shot kill, but the coordination skill required for this would be insane (or, well, it could be balanced to be insane depending on the dmg check timing values). Ah, I see. I'm just guessing here, but I think this makes party vs party scenarios with 2 tanks weird/jank. My thinking here is one brings 2 tanks to try and chain Grapple the one giving that buff away from the formation, to somewhere too far off to quickly reposition. 2 tanks are good for this, and they're also good for having a backup defender for when your first one gets grappled away. So really, what I think this does is make 2 tank the meta for pvp. Maybe even 3 tanks. What are your thoughts on this? who gonna kill? lol best pvp party will probs have 0 tanks
SunScript wrote: » NiKr wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Do you perhaps mean something like this? No, that link is pretty much Aegis already. And Aegis' aoe also seemed to be tiny. I'm talking about a huge aoe behind the tank, that's constantly on (i.e. an aura). Well, if, as I said, people think that the 5min buff is too OP. And I related my idea to Aegis simply due to the similarities in the mechanic. The effect is simply "this gives 50 def if the target received dmg from only a single source, within the last 5s. This gives 100 def, if it was 2 sources. Etc etc scaling up to a shitton of def if a lot of sources of dmg". In other words, I want to make the attackers spread their damage, instead of all hitting one target. This would still allow for a one-shot kill, but the coordination skill required for this would be insane (or, well, it could be balanced to be insane depending on the dmg check timing values). Ah, I see. I'm just guessing here, but I think this makes party vs party scenarios with 2 tanks weird/jank. My thinking here is one brings 2 tanks to try and chain Grapple the one giving that buff away from the formation, to somewhere too far off to quickly reposition. 2 tanks are good for this, and they're also good for having a backup defender for when your first one gets grappled away. So really, what I think this does is make 2 tank the meta for pvp. Maybe even 3 tanks. What are your thoughts on this?
NiKr wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Do you perhaps mean something like this? No, that link is pretty much Aegis already. And Aegis' aoe also seemed to be tiny. I'm talking about a huge aoe behind the tank, that's constantly on (i.e. an aura). Well, if, as I said, people think that the 5min buff is too OP. And I related my idea to Aegis simply due to the similarities in the mechanic. The effect is simply "this gives 50 def if the target received dmg from only a single source, within the last 5s. This gives 100 def, if it was 2 sources. Etc etc scaling up to a shitton of def if a lot of sources of dmg". In other words, I want to make the attackers spread their damage, instead of all hitting one target. This would still allow for a one-shot kill, but the coordination skill required for this would be insane (or, well, it could be balanced to be insane depending on the dmg check timing values).
SunScript wrote: » Do you perhaps mean something like this?
NiKr wrote: » I'm of the opinion that tank shouldn't do anywhere near good dps, so having 2 tanks decreases your damage output significantly. And if parties think they can still win with lower dps - more power to them.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You can't make the argument they are including team play while saying Steven is talking about 1v1. Your arguments make 0 sense. Its full of bs. Mag, just please go watch the clip again. He literally talks about "dps vs dps", "healer/tank vs healer/tank" and then talks about group pvp and says "targets can be killed *snap* like that". So when we draw a line between "a dps character can be killed in 10s" and "in a group vs group situation a target can die in a second" (snap signifies that second) - it's not difficult to come to a conclusion that several situations have been considered when explaining those encounters, because one directly relates to the other. Depraved chose to believe that Steven was talking about an 8+++ size group vs a singular target. You are now choosing to think that Steven didn't even talk about group pvp.
Depraved wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Depraved wrote: » SunScript wrote: » NiKr wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Do you perhaps mean something like this? No, that link is pretty much Aegis already. And Aegis' aoe also seemed to be tiny. I'm talking about a huge aoe behind the tank, that's constantly on (i.e. an aura). Well, if, as I said, people think that the 5min buff is too OP. And I related my idea to Aegis simply due to the similarities in the mechanic. The effect is simply "this gives 50 def if the target received dmg from only a single source, within the last 5s. This gives 100 def, if it was 2 sources. Etc etc scaling up to a shitton of def if a lot of sources of dmg". In other words, I want to make the attackers spread their damage, instead of all hitting one target. This would still allow for a one-shot kill, but the coordination skill required for this would be insane (or, well, it could be balanced to be insane depending on the dmg check timing values). Ah, I see. I'm just guessing here, but I think this makes party vs party scenarios with 2 tanks weird/jank. My thinking here is one brings 2 tanks to try and chain Grapple the one giving that buff away from the formation, to somewhere too far off to quickly reposition. 2 tanks are good for this, and they're also good for having a backup defender for when your first one gets grappled away. So really, what I think this does is make 2 tank the meta for pvp. Maybe even 3 tanks. What are your thoughts on this? who gonna kill? lol best pvp party will probs have 0 tanks Have you played a group pvp game where 4-5 DPS out of 8 isn't enough to do the killing (I'm not yet sure if this will be 1 Cleric or 2 Cleric meta) ? Quite fast? Considering the fact Clerics and Tanks themselves are still perfectly capable of dealing damage, just less of it? 3 tanks. you definetely want at least 1 cleric for the heals 1 bard for the buffs. that leaves 3 dps. will probably need summoner to support too or debuff, depending what it does, and chances are you will need 2 clerics in this game for PVP (that's more likely than needing 3 tanks). we don't know for sure. lets say 3 dps. maybe if you pull a squishy, you can kill him fast, who knows. if you start adding more tanks, who will you remove from the party?
SunScript wrote: » Depraved wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Depraved wrote: » SunScript wrote: » NiKr wrote: » SunScript wrote: » Do you perhaps mean something like this? No, that link is pretty much Aegis already. And Aegis' aoe also seemed to be tiny. I'm talking about a huge aoe behind the tank, that's constantly on (i.e. an aura). Well, if, as I said, people think that the 5min buff is too OP. And I related my idea to Aegis simply due to the similarities in the mechanic. The effect is simply "this gives 50 def if the target received dmg from only a single source, within the last 5s. This gives 100 def, if it was 2 sources. Etc etc scaling up to a shitton of def if a lot of sources of dmg". In other words, I want to make the attackers spread their damage, instead of all hitting one target. This would still allow for a one-shot kill, but the coordination skill required for this would be insane (or, well, it could be balanced to be insane depending on the dmg check timing values). Ah, I see. I'm just guessing here, but I think this makes party vs party scenarios with 2 tanks weird/jank. My thinking here is one brings 2 tanks to try and chain Grapple the one giving that buff away from the formation, to somewhere too far off to quickly reposition. 2 tanks are good for this, and they're also good for having a backup defender for when your first one gets grappled away. So really, what I think this does is make 2 tank the meta for pvp. Maybe even 3 tanks. What are your thoughts on this? who gonna kill? lol best pvp party will probs have 0 tanks Have you played a group pvp game where 4-5 DPS out of 8 isn't enough to do the killing (I'm not yet sure if this will be 1 Cleric or 2 Cleric meta) ? Quite fast? Considering the fact Clerics and Tanks themselves are still perfectly capable of dealing damage, just less of it? 3 tanks. you definetely want at least 1 cleric for the heals 1 bard for the buffs. that leaves 3 dps. will probably need summoner to support too or debuff, depending what it does, and chances are you will need 2 clerics in this game for PVP (that's more likely than needing 3 tanks). we don't know for sure. lets say 3 dps. maybe if you pull a squishy, you can kill him fast, who knows. if you start adding more tanks, who will you remove from the party? Are you sure it will end up being 3 tanks given current design, though? Can you expand on why? Regarding Summoner, I know they said they'd release one, but how would the class function in Ashes specifically? TTK on the quick side and abundance of mobility means pets will have similar issues as Tanks when it comes to being roadblocks. We're still concerned about the role of Bards and what buffs they can even bring to be relevant, so the side of Summoner that relies on buffs would encounter the same concerns. And if you take Summoner in a more damage oriented route, I would expect Rangers and Fighters to be more valuable given what we've seen. So once again, how would Summoner work?
Dygz wrote: » In Ashes that should not be a valid concept because every Class in that Group with 2 Tanks could be an x/Rogue equipped with plenty of DPS Augments. Or the 2 Tanks could be adding DPS Augments from Social Orgs or Religions, etc.
Depraved wrote: » so if this is all subjective, why are you more right than me?
Diamaht wrote: » Those types of tools can be a way for a small party to mitigate against a zerg and give themselves more time.
Mag7spy wrote: » Its really obvious to people, but your bias to complain won't allow you to see that.
NiKr wrote: » And none of those classes will have as big of a dps values as a pure dps class, just as classes with cleric secondary won't be able to heal a raid as well as a cleric will. That was my point.
Dygz wrote: » They can cumulatively. Depends on how they synergize and stack their attacks. Rather than depending on individual rotations.
GreatPhilisopher wrote: » According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK
NiKr wrote: » Unless I completely misunderstood Steven's goal for augments - no class will be as powerful as the main archetype that determined the class (obviously outside of doubles). In other words, if tank's "tanking power" = 1, a class that has tank as a secondary might be 0.8 at max progression. And I don't see why Intrepid would design their math in such a way that 0.8x8 somehow = more than 1x8. In other words, I expect synergy between dpses to produce more damage than synergy between non-dps archetypes that took a dps secondary. If you disagree with that expectation - great, hope you're right.
Dygz wrote: » Again, you are focusing on individual rotation rather than on synergizing abilities with the other players in the Group. I did not suggest that one x/Rogue in a group will be as effective as a Rogue/x.
oOKingOo wrote: » GreatPhilisopher wrote: » According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK The whole TTK discussion is pointless before Alpha 2. What do you even want the developers to do? They can design abilities right now, and then let people test out how long it takes to kill each other with these abilities in different situations. Based on that feedback, they can then nerf or buff the abilities to where it feels good. We are not yet at the "let people test it out" part, so there is no point in debating whether TTK should be longer or shorter. It's not about how long or short it is in the first place; it's about it feeling good. For that, it needs to be balanced between not getting one-shotted and not being boring because you can just tank for minutes without doing anything just because you have high HP. Exactly how long a good TTK will be depends on different factors, like how many abilities we will have on the bar, etc. These are factors we don't even know yet.
Dygz wrote: » It doesn't. Your math suggests each x/Rogue is doing their individual rotations; rather than stacking their DPS attacks.
