Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » APOC was a BR, which have a much more ingrained tendency for having BPs, mainly because BRs are built on cosmetics as the main source of income. Ashes is built on subs and direct cosmetic purchases (through token, but the action itself is still direct). Expecting it to have a BP just cause it's trendy would be the same as Mag's expectation that AoC's combat will be way more actiony because that is "modern". APOC was a BR. Ashes is going to be built on subs and a Cosmetic Market. And I expect that to be in the form of a BP. Ashes combat being "more" actiony would need a comparison. More actiony than what. The difference between my expectation and Mag's expectation is that Steven has specifically stated that if it came down to a choice between Tab Target and Action he would choose Tab Target. We don't have a quote of Steven saying that if it came down to a choice of Cosmetic Market without a BP and Cosmetic Market with no BP, he would choose the former. But, it's really not that deep. I've made my prediction... and then we see what actually happens. NiKr wrote: » I was talking about what the BP makes you do, not the BP reward, which is why I said that BPs don't provide any new content. BPs don't make players do anything. BPs offer rewards for Tasks. And, like I said, BPs do also come with some new content in the game. NiKr wrote: » Yes, cosmetics can be content, but that's a post-action reward, rather than the action itself. I'm not sure what this means if some of the BP Tasks include completing new content. Like when Mounts were added to NW and then some of the BP Tasks included Mount Races. NiKr wrote: » You're still stuck on the gear acquisition actions, even though several people have already said that it is not the only thing you do even in non-rpg games, let alone mmorpgs. I'm stuck on gear acquisition as the primary game loop for individual characters at Max Level/Endgame in MMORPGs. Yes. That is my primary point. NiKr wrote: » Making BP-like tasks should be as difficult as making bulletin board tasks in Ashes, at least code-wise. Both are just "interact with this menu that spits out a random action - do action - get reward". This is one of the reasons I don't want a BP. We already have a feature that functions nearly identically. Bulletin Board Tasks would be a subset of BP Tasks. Kind of a similar function programming-wise although the BP reward path(s) would be significantly different. And also the objectives and rewards would be significantly different. Kind of like saying a soup kitchen isn't necessary when a town already has restaurants. Dygz wrote: » And those boards could be node-type-dependent and you'd get your wide variety of actions, from military nodes asking to kill people to divine nodes asking you to talk to different npcs. And players would be free to choose which tasks they want to get. I mean again... you are talking about apples when I am talking about oranges. You're saying a BP isn't necessary if there are Bulletin Boards and I'm saying I expect the Cosmetic Market will be in the form of a Battlepass even though Ashes will also have a Bulletin Board. Tasks on a BP are not exactly the same as Tasks on a Bulletin Board. It's kind of like saying there's no need to have female Kaelar if the game already has male Kaelar. It's OK to have both. Dygz wrote: » As for speed of content release. If 3d modelers and animation riggers can create several cosmetics per 3 months, I sure as hell expect some people to be able to write a few lines of dialogue and the coders to put that dialogue into a few npcs in those 3 months. It would not be just a few lines of dialogue. It's not like you get one item for doing one Task like you would for doing one Quest. You have to do quite a few BP Tasks to get one BP Reward. But, each Task is typically quicker to complete than a Quest. Also no need to deal with multiple NPCs. Dygz wrote: » This completely blew my mind tbh. Do you have an internal logic for this and could you explain it to me? Because I simply cannot understand how you're ok with doing smth because the BP asks you to do it, but would ignore a quest purely on the basis of it asking you to do the same thing. What's your reasoning behind this distinction? Well for one thing, a BP Task is not going to trigger my character's personality quirks because my character isn't interacting with another character. A BP Task is going to trigger a player motivation rather than a character motivation. BP Task is going to inform player goals for my play session, rather than character goals based on the personality of my character. A BP Task informs what I as a player wants to do during my play session rather than what my character wants to do. And then it's easier for me to head-canon why my character might make an exception to their restrictions rather than my character adjusting the restrictions for the reasons another character told me to. Also, BP rewards are something I want as a player and goes to my player account, rather than something my character receives or hopes to receive. After I get the reward, I'll decide which character gets a particular award. The NW Battlepass works via Cards that have a pattern like Tic-Tac-Toe. There are categories of BP Tasks: PvP, PvE, Bulletin Board Tasks, Gathering, Music The Card is 4x4. You try to get 4 in a row at least 2 or 3 times. Well, it's usually only two or three times because I typically try to avoid the PvP tasks. Twice, out of hundreds of Cards, the configuration of categories was such that I felt the path of least resistance to completing 2 or 3 rows of categories was to do one PvP Task. But, Quests are not configured like that, so... in other MMORPGs, I always ignore PvP Quests. I enjoy PvP sometimes. And NW PvP is basically the form of PvP I like - when I'm in the mood for PvP. So, 30-40 mimnutes out of 600+ hours play time feels OK. NiKr wrote: » Did that Grendel Thread come from a BP task? Cause to me this sounds as if a quest made you do something that you denied wanting to do in the quote above. And if it was in fact a quest, then what's the difference between you going against your own nature, to the point of having to head-canon yourself out of the situation, while a WoW quest of "turn into a tree for a few minutes" would make you completely ignore it (supposedly due to a reason of "that's not my rp")? Nope. Not a Quest. And not a Task. I progressed my alt to a point where she could Craft the Druid Outfit. I wanted her Druid outfit to be green. The only way to Craft green outfits is to use Grendel Thread. The only way to get Grendel Thread is to kill Grendels. Even though Grendels won't attack players first. And I typically won't attack mobs that don't attack me first. That's just emergent gameplay. I've shared the Kithicor Forest example in the Forums before:The EQnext example is that dark elves from Serpentspine Mountains are farming dryads in Kithicor Forest, stealing their Life magic and transmuting it into Shadow magic to power their spells and augment gear and abilities, like Stealth. Players who rely on Shadow magic will go into Kithicor to farm NPC dryads, but the players in Kithicor will want to prevent that because as Life is drained from the region, blight spreads and eventually the bonds which hold the Shadow Demons at bay will break. The Shadow Demons destroy anything living...even the dark elves... should the Shadow Demons encounter them (unbeknownst to the dark elves). So, player avatars in Kithicor are very likely to attack anyone killing NPC dryads in Kithicor Forest. Kithicor Forest is just common space. It's not a designated PvP combat zone. But, PvP combat is very like to happen there because the needs and objectives of the people nearby conflict with the needs and objectives and safety of the people who live in Kithicor Forest. Since Stealth is my most cherished stat - this kind of conflict can push me to PvP> If someone tries to prevent me from killing Dryads and I need Resources from dead Dryads to increase or max my Stealth. That has nothing to do with Quests or Tasks. That's mostly character personality. NiKr wrote: » It would feel like a chore because it something that people tend to repeat a lot, right? Though afaik big raids are usually a "once a week" thing. Nope. Of course, the stuff people repeat a lot would be the activities people like to do most. And the stuff you don't like to do you can ignore and/or do once every 4-8 weeks. Again, it only feels like a chore when you get reset to the beginning of the reward path if you miss a day or miss a week. You have to spend a bunch of time prepping for Raids. More time than I want to spend. And I don't think there is any reward that could get me to Raid more than a couple times per year. The motivation for participating in those Raids would probably be to be social with the TheoryForge community. NiKr wrote: » But in the context of longer play sessions, where BP is providing people with reasons to keep playing the game (this assumes that they already did what they themselves wanted to do) - the BP tasks would be a chore to those who already do a variety of things in the game. This is why I brought up the mental explorers. I'm not sure what you are envisioning. If I'm at Max Level, I'm probably primarily playing to complete the Battlepass and then to create vids with the stuff I acquired from the Battlepass. So, that's not really in the context of longer play sessions. If you feel BP Tasks are a chore; don't do them. Just like no one forces me to do Dungeons or Raids. You brought up "mental explorers". They seem to just be obsessive completionists. I also do a variety of things while taking multiple alts to Max Level. NiKr wrote: » A person who's interested in trying out a ton of different stuff will try out that stuff on their own, because they're interested in that. And if BP brings up an action that this person had absolute 0 interest in - the action would be a chore (except its seconds meaning) Mmmn. I don't think that's quite accurate. Otherwise, MMORPGs would not give out so many rewards. And gamers would continue to do Dungeons and Raids with no BiS gear drops. And there would not be a desire for expansions. There will be tons of Tasks on the BP that an individual has 0 interest in. Ignore those Tasks and complete the BP with Tasks you enjoy doing. That's a win/win. If you like Cosmetics. If you don't like Cosmetics, the BP probably won't be enticing anyways. NiKr wrote: » This obviously goes against your reasoning for liking BPs even though they might ask you to do smth that you have negative interest in, which is why I asked about said reasoning, because I can't quite comprehend what kind of difference your mind sees between a BP task and a quest-related task. It doesn't really go against my reasoning - so much as it's inaccurate mental exploration on your part that has little to do with reality. Again, Quest-related tasks would be a sub-set of BP Tasks. You seem to think that they are mutually exclusive, when they are not. NiKr wrote: » Is it just the reward type? Cause that can be easily fixed by having more quests with cosmetic rewards or, as I said before, adding a cosmetics currency to bulletin board tasks. It's the reward type in tandem with the reward path structure. There is no need of a fix. Bulletin Board Tasks would be a subset of BP Tasks. Again, you seem to think that they are mutually exclusive, when they are not. NiKr wrote: » To me "achiever" thing is more about "I overcame this struggle/hardship" rather than simply a "I got everything" thing. Except in actuality it's another conflation similar to physical explorer and mental explorer. In the Bartle Test, Explorer covers both physical explorer and mental explorer. And Achiever covers both completing challenges and completing collections, but the questions in the Bartle Test mostly skew more towards the latter, I think. NiKr wrote: » The acquisition of knowledge itself is more important to me than any given reward. And according to the wiki page about the bartle taxonomy - that seems to fall under the explorer archetype. What's your Bartle Score?https://matthewbarr.co.uk/bartle/ NiKr wrote: » Also, the funniest quote from that page, given the context of this discussion However, Explorers will often become bored with any particular MMORPG when they have experienced its content. They will tire quicker than other gamer types, and feel the game has become a chore to play. Yep. I think I said that in previous posts. NiKr wrote: » And to me, playing all characters with all professions and different builds is simply a part of exploring the game, just as a person might want to explore the entire map. I also always come up with a special name for my characters, related to their class/race/profession (usually just one of those) and could easily come up with rp backstories for them, but never needed to do that because I don't play in RPing circles. Exploring many permutations is simply a part of exploring the game. Playing all configurations is completionist; not simply explorative. Anyone can come up with a bunch of special names. And even coming up with a bunch of distinct backstories is not necessarily daunting. I don't play in RPing circles either. That doesn't stop me from RPing distinct personalities, interests and quirks for my alts. Especially if I'm playing any form of RPG. I'll do that for about 4 characters. I'm an actor; not schizo. NiKr wrote: » It's more like I'd say that they're not mental explorers at all, or at the very least have very low score on that type. And you would be wrong. Again, you are just projecting your biased, fabricated perspective on others. Especially, you know, when you use absolutes like "at all". NiKr wrote: » But I'd also conjecture that majority of players only care about the BP rewards rather than the "it keeps me playing the game" part of BPs. Which is why I say that we don't need a BP and simply need to use that reward structure in an already-existing feature of the game. OK. Drop some support for that claim. I didn't say that Ashes needs a BP. I said that I expect Ashes to have a BP. The reward structure of a BP is kinda too meta for an "already-existing feature in the game". NiKr wrote: » Those who want to get those rewards can do that at any time, while people with shorter playtime hours won't have a BP timer looming above their head reminding them to go play the game more. You say that modern BPs have a ton of time to finish them, but this then implies that they can be finished very very quickly by someone who aims to do that. This would then mean that BP would not add enough content for the exact people that it's meant to keep playing the game - the hardcore timers. I don't think it works in a way that those who want to can get the rewards any time. Modern Battlepasses provide ample time for people with shorter playtime hours to complete the reward path. I don't know why you like to use so much hyperbole such that "quickly" becomes "very, very quickly". That doesn't help support your claims. And actually inherently invalidates them. NiKr wrote: » So for a part of the gaming population a BP doesn't serve the purpose you claim it serves, for another part of the population it doesn't matter at all (cause they create their own interest or are drowned in overall content) and for another part it's a doomclock constantly ticking ahead and saying "you will miss this cool cosmetic if you're not done with the BP by the end of its period". I don't know what that means. It's like saying there is a part of the gaming population that the BiS gear Endgame loop doesn't serve. And we know that's the vast majority od players because we see massive population spikes when a new Battlepass or Expansion drops. NiKr wrote: » As I see it, all of those players could be easily satisfied by simply having a better reward structure in the game, unrelated to any BP-like mechanics. Again, it's not better. It's just different. But also this is your apples argument when I'm talking about oranges.
NiKr wrote: » APOC was a BR, which have a much more ingrained tendency for having BPs, mainly because BRs are built on cosmetics as the main source of income. Ashes is built on subs and direct cosmetic purchases (through token, but the action itself is still direct). Expecting it to have a BP just cause it's trendy would be the same as Mag's expectation that AoC's combat will be way more actiony because that is "modern".
NiKr wrote: » I was talking about what the BP makes you do, not the BP reward, which is why I said that BPs don't provide any new content.
NiKr wrote: » Yes, cosmetics can be content, but that's a post-action reward, rather than the action itself.
NiKr wrote: » You're still stuck on the gear acquisition actions, even though several people have already said that it is not the only thing you do even in non-rpg games, let alone mmorpgs.
NiKr wrote: » Making BP-like tasks should be as difficult as making bulletin board tasks in Ashes, at least code-wise. Both are just "interact with this menu that spits out a random action - do action - get reward". This is one of the reasons I don't want a BP. We already have a feature that functions nearly identically.
Dygz wrote: » And those boards could be node-type-dependent and you'd get your wide variety of actions, from military nodes asking to kill people to divine nodes asking you to talk to different npcs. And players would be free to choose which tasks they want to get.
Dygz wrote: » As for speed of content release. If 3d modelers and animation riggers can create several cosmetics per 3 months, I sure as hell expect some people to be able to write a few lines of dialogue and the coders to put that dialogue into a few npcs in those 3 months.
Dygz wrote: » This completely blew my mind tbh. Do you have an internal logic for this and could you explain it to me? Because I simply cannot understand how you're ok with doing smth because the BP asks you to do it, but would ignore a quest purely on the basis of it asking you to do the same thing. What's your reasoning behind this distinction?
NiKr wrote: » Did that Grendel Thread come from a BP task? Cause to me this sounds as if a quest made you do something that you denied wanting to do in the quote above. And if it was in fact a quest, then what's the difference between you going against your own nature, to the point of having to head-canon yourself out of the situation, while a WoW quest of "turn into a tree for a few minutes" would make you completely ignore it (supposedly due to a reason of "that's not my rp")?
NiKr wrote: » It would feel like a chore because it something that people tend to repeat a lot, right? Though afaik big raids are usually a "once a week" thing.
NiKr wrote: » But in the context of longer play sessions, where BP is providing people with reasons to keep playing the game (this assumes that they already did what they themselves wanted to do) - the BP tasks would be a chore to those who already do a variety of things in the game. This is why I brought up the mental explorers.
NiKr wrote: » A person who's interested in trying out a ton of different stuff will try out that stuff on their own, because they're interested in that. And if BP brings up an action that this person had absolute 0 interest in - the action would be a chore (except its seconds meaning)
NiKr wrote: » This obviously goes against your reasoning for liking BPs even though they might ask you to do smth that you have negative interest in, which is why I asked about said reasoning, because I can't quite comprehend what kind of difference your mind sees between a BP task and a quest-related task.
NiKr wrote: » Is it just the reward type? Cause that can be easily fixed by having more quests with cosmetic rewards or, as I said before, adding a cosmetics currency to bulletin board tasks.
NiKr wrote: » To me "achiever" thing is more about "I overcame this struggle/hardship" rather than simply a "I got everything" thing.
NiKr wrote: » The acquisition of knowledge itself is more important to me than any given reward. And according to the wiki page about the bartle taxonomy - that seems to fall under the explorer archetype.
NiKr wrote: » Also, the funniest quote from that page, given the context of this discussion However, Explorers will often become bored with any particular MMORPG when they have experienced its content. They will tire quicker than other gamer types, and feel the game has become a chore to play.
NiKr wrote: » And to me, playing all characters with all professions and different builds is simply a part of exploring the game, just as a person might want to explore the entire map. I also always come up with a special name for my characters, related to their class/race/profession (usually just one of those) and could easily come up with rp backstories for them, but never needed to do that because I don't play in RPing circles.
NiKr wrote: » It's more like I'd say that they're not mental explorers at all, or at the very least have very low score on that type.
NiKr wrote: » But I'd also conjecture that majority of players only care about the BP rewards rather than the "it keeps me playing the game" part of BPs. Which is why I say that we don't need a BP and simply need to use that reward structure in an already-existing feature of the game.
NiKr wrote: » Those who want to get those rewards can do that at any time, while people with shorter playtime hours won't have a BP timer looming above their head reminding them to go play the game more. You say that modern BPs have a ton of time to finish them, but this then implies that they can be finished very very quickly by someone who aims to do that. This would then mean that BP would not add enough content for the exact people that it's meant to keep playing the game - the hardcore timers.
NiKr wrote: » So for a part of the gaming population a BP doesn't serve the purpose you claim it serves, for another part of the population it doesn't matter at all (cause they create their own interest or are drowned in overall content) and for another part it's a doomclock constantly ticking ahead and saying "you will miss this cool cosmetic if you're not done with the BP by the end of its period".
NiKr wrote: » As I see it, all of those players could be easily satisfied by simply having a better reward structure in the game, unrelated to any BP-like mechanics.
Mag7spy wrote: » The more you fight methods to monetize that aren't p2w the closer you get to p2w as the option, or the game shutting down.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr serious question how many subs do you think AoC will have 2-3 months into launch if you were to guest based ont he pvp elements and not being a full pve game and having a monthly fee. 100-200k, depending on the state it launches in. And I totally expect that number to stay in that range, as long as the game doesn't have a sudden shift in direction or monetization. Mag7spy wrote: » Money, its a really obvious answer. We've all been seemingly talking about BPs that reward you only with cosmetics, right? And let's say this BP gives 10 free cosmetics and 10 paid ones across 3 months (I know this is a low number, but still) and costs $10 for that whole period. Do you really believe that more people would spend $10 to get those 10 cosmetics, rather than paying $1 per cosmetic they like, except in the case of direct purchase they ONLY need to do that purchase and not waste their time on some random bullshit activity that the BP requires? Cause to me it seems way better to simply have those cheap cosmetics as proper micro-transactions, and get all the free cosmetics into quest/task rewards. And definitely be way more willing to spend a few buckaroos here and there, even though I personally despise cosmetics.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr serious question how many subs do you think AoC will have 2-3 months into launch if you were to guest based ont he pvp elements and not being a full pve game and having a monthly fee.
Mag7spy wrote: » Money, its a really obvious answer.
Abarat wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The more you fight methods to monetize that aren't p2w the closer you get to p2w as the option, or the game shutting down. Steven has touted that Ashes will be different. If he cannot figure out how to do it with content, then I think he has failed in his dream. I am confident they will figure how to get our money with legit story and fun. I think Dygz fundamentally misses the point of Ashes of Creation because he does not understand PVP.
Mag7spy wrote: » Abarat wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The more you fight methods to monetize that aren't p2w the closer you get to p2w as the option, or the game shutting down. Steven has touted that Ashes will be different. If he cannot figure out how to do it with content, then I think he has failed in his dream. I am confident they will figure how to get our money with legit story and fun. I think Dygz fundamentally misses the point of Ashes of Creation because he does not understand PVP. I don't remember him saying they are going to be pioneering monetization in games and coming up with new solutions. His trade off is losing money on box cost so more people can play the game and not have as much of a barrier.
Dygz wrote: » abc0815 wrote: » The plague of modern day gaming (and old school too) is the pure reward driven player engagement. Playing for fun becomes distant second or even third. Min/max time should not be the mayor talking point (nor rewards). How do you maintain the fun after you've played through the content with 4 different characters? How many times do you re-read a novel in a year just for the fun of reading the novel?
abc0815 wrote: » The plague of modern day gaming (and old school too) is the pure reward driven player engagement. Playing for fun becomes distant second or even third. Min/max time should not be the mayor talking point (nor rewards).
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Abarat wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The more you fight methods to monetize that aren't p2w the closer you get to p2w as the option, or the game shutting down. Steven has touted that Ashes will be different. If he cannot figure out how to do it with content, then I think he has failed in his dream. I am confident they will figure how to get our money with legit story and fun. I think Dygz fundamentally misses the point of Ashes of Creation because he does not understand PVP. I don't remember him saying they are going to be pioneering monetization in games and coming up with new solutions. His trade off is losing money on box cost so more people can play the game and not have as much of a barrier. No, they have been very forthright with how they plan to make money - subscriptions and cosmetics. A battlepass as most people seem to assume it to be would go counter to that. This is why I don't get the whole discussion. It is people asking Intrepid to put in a form of monetization that can be bypassed (most people seem to want it to be able to be bypassed), that will directly lower the sales of other monetization Intrepid plans, all so that people can be told what to do in a game that is supposed to be a sandpark (or themebox). I really don't see the argument for it, despite this thread.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Abarat wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The more you fight methods to monetize that aren't p2w the closer you get to p2w as the option, or the game shutting down. Steven has touted that Ashes will be different. If he cannot figure out how to do it with content, then I think he has failed in his dream. I am confident they will figure how to get our money with legit story and fun. I think Dygz fundamentally misses the point of Ashes of Creation because he does not understand PVP. I don't remember him saying they are going to be pioneering monetization in games and coming up with new solutions. His trade off is losing money on box cost so more people can play the game and not have as much of a barrier. No, they have been very forthright with how they plan to make money - subscriptions and cosmetics. A battlepass as most people seem to assume it to be would go counter to that. This is why I don't get the whole discussion. It is people asking Intrepid to put in a form of monetization that can be bypassed (most people seem to want it to be able to be bypassed), that will directly lower the sales of other monetization Intrepid plans, all so that people can be told what to do in a game that is supposed to be a sandpark (or themebox). I really don't see the argument for it, despite this thread. Battlepass fits into cosmetic, doesn't matter how you try to twist that so it isn't a counter to anything.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Abarat wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The more you fight methods to monetize that aren't p2w the closer you get to p2w as the option, or the game shutting down. Steven has touted that Ashes will be different. If he cannot figure out how to do it with content, then I think he has failed in his dream. I am confident they will figure how to get our money with legit story and fun. I think Dygz fundamentally misses the point of Ashes of Creation because he does not understand PVP. I don't remember him saying they are going to be pioneering monetization in games and coming up with new solutions. His trade off is losing money on box cost so more people can play the game and not have as much of a barrier. No, they have been very forthright with how they plan to make money - subscriptions and cosmetics. A battlepass as most people seem to assume it to be would go counter to that. This is why I don't get the whole discussion. It is people asking Intrepid to put in a form of monetization that can be bypassed (most people seem to want it to be able to be bypassed), that will directly lower the sales of other monetization Intrepid plans, all so that people can be told what to do in a game that is supposed to be a sandpark (or themebox). I really don't see the argument for it, despite this thread. Battlepass fits into cosmetic, doesn't matter how you try to twist that so it isn't a counter to anything. Sure - I'm not saying it doesn't. I am saying it will lower Intrepids revenue if implemented in the way many people here are talking about it.
Abarat wrote: » Steven has touted that Ashes will be different. If he cannot figure out how to do it with content, then I think he has failed in his dream. I am confident they will figure how to get our money with legit story and fun. I think Dygz fundamentally misses the point of Ashes of Creation because he does not understand PVP.
Otr wrote: » It can happen that AoC will not offer the kind of content which can be delivered by a battle pass. Asking for battle passes is like asking AoC to be that kind of game which requires them.
CROW3 wrote: » I’m revising my opinion after thinking about it. The state of mmos is so bad right now that if Ashes delivers a solid B+ on their vision, it will garner a massive audience. There’s no need for a battle pass to be included in the first few years.
Abarat wrote: » Dygz, based upon your word count, you appear to be wound up.
Mag7spy wrote: » Really not going to lower the revenue and it doesn't change anything. Also forum posters are less than .0001% of game population. Its the casual player that matters, and whales who will spend tons of money on the game.
