Battlepass in MMOs

Noaani wrote: »

Something you may have noticed - I definately have - with the two people wanting a battlepass; they really aren't even attempting to describe how it would look in Ashes at all.

I can only assume this is because they know how easily that would make it to just rip to pieces.

Well they're supporting it for different reasons. Dygz simply prefers the rewards, which also make him play the game more (and in ways he usually doesn't play), while Mag is just afraid that the game will be so damn shit that only the BP scamming can save Intrepid from utter collapse (I'm wildly overexaggerating here, but that's the core point of his arguments so far).

Dygz has provided several examples of BPs and just believes that Intrepid will amalgamate all of their best qualities into their own version of the BP. Mag simply keeps saying "money good. need money", so his side of the discussion doesn't even need to provide an example of how things should work.

And considering that Mag doesn't seem to care about cosmetics - I'm sure he'd be fine if the BP was the scammiest thing ever, as long as it only rewards cosmetics.

So yes, so far I've had to do my own research on all of this stuff, just to properly understand what both of them mean (cause my main source of BP knowledge is Mihoyo's games). In the process, I've learned about DRG's BP design, which seems like the best one in the industry, BUT ALSO COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF HAVING A BP

At the end of the day it's all very silly

GrilledCheeseMojito

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Everyone wants that. Typically, 75% of the player population stops playing once they hit Max Level.

This is blatantly untrue.

95%+ of all in game character time in WoW is on max level characters.

This figure is 90%+ in ESO, EQ, EQ2, GW2 and a number of other games.

It is 99.5%+ in Archeage.

I do not have figures for either Final Fantasy game, though would expect it to be around 90%.

Just here to pipe up that per my own experience this is true for FFXI.

Anyway, please don't add a battle pass. You're not a Korean MMO, you don't have to. Reading through this thread, it seems like battle passes have poisoned the well enough that they have caused a fundamental shift in the motivation people have for playing a game, and it makes me sad for the state of gaming today.

I think that if you are playing a game for extrinsic motivation, i.e. something that is not the raw mechanics or social dynamics of the game itself, but something layered on top, you're most likely being preyed on and should stop. If you add a battle pass, whether it causes FOMO/money loss or not, you are somewhat admitting your game isn't engaging enough by itself and needs an extrinsic motivation booster. That seems like bad design, and something that would leave a blemish on Intrepid's record.

NiKr wrote: »

You keep saying this, but what do you mean by it? Are you talking about the cosmetic rewards? And if not, then how exactly is a UI menu bringing that other content? Or are you saying that the BP pays for the new content, which is why they're always linked?

If a company can release new content every 3 months - they can just release it every 3 months. BP has nothing to do with that and has no relation to said content.

And if you do mean "cosmetic rewards" - as Mag keeps saying, that's not content for the absolute majority of players. Yes, you can RP in it or show off your grind/money to others, but the amount of people who'd call that content (or let alone "enough content to keep playing the game) is miniscule.

Battlepasses typically include a bit of new story, some new quests and thematically related mobs and NPCs in the world. For NW and Fortnite, there is a Battlepass page you get get to from the Menu where you can track your rogress on the free path and the paid path which will show you the Cosmetics rewards and will also list the long list of Tasks. Most of the rewards there will be related to the theme Season/Chapter story.

For instance, on May 3rd, LEGO Fortnite dropped a Star Wars Battlepass.
The Shop also dropped in some STar Wars characters for sale.
I bought Lando for around 2K vbucks.
For 18K vbucks, I bought the LEGO Star Wars Bundle which included a Rebel Building, an Imperial Building, and the premium Star Wars path. Primarily because the premium path had 7 STar Wars buildings and I had been wishing there were some Sci-Fi buildings for 6 months.
The premium Star Wars path also instantly gave me Chewbaca for "free".

I dropped into the game as Lando.
I took a minute to check on the farm I had been building.
All of a sudden I heard loud crack from the sky. I looked up and over. Sure enough, the sky was fucking fracturing!!
As I watched the fracture grow larger, the front of an Imperial Star Destroyer peeked through and I began to hear X-Wings and Tie Fighters battling each other as they flew through the fissure.
The Star Destroyer pushed through the crack, sped across the sky and... I heard it crash somewhere far in the distance.
Dazed and confused, I basically just turned in circles looking around the area, thinking, "WTF just HAPPENED??!!?!!"
WHile I was trying get my bearings and figure out what I should do next. a Rebel Officer ran up to me and said that her Squad landed nearby and needed some help establishing a base. She handed me some Macrobinoculars which allowed me to view where on the map Rebel and Imperial Bases are located.

Using the Macrobinoculars I found a Cave that had Rebel Soldiers standing in front of it.
They had placed a small camp and some equipment around the Cave and were guarding the entrance.
(They will shoot any mobs that come near the entrance.)
I walked into the Cave to see Rebel NPCs wandering around the Camp inside. Shortly after I walked out of the other end of the Cave, the Rebel Officer found me and told me I should go find the area where they were establishing a Village.
And that started me on a bunch of Bulletin Board Tasks related to upgrading the Rebel Village.
That Cave had led me to Star Wars Island - where most of the Caves are occupied by Rebel Bases or Imperial Bases. You can destroy them to collect building pieces if you wish. Eliminating Star Wars NPCs will also cause Star Wars building pieces to drop.

All of the above occurred before I ever looked at the Battlepass Tasks.
Of course, just playing through the game was already moving me along both tracks of the Star Wars Battlepass and the Main Battlepass.
After I moved the Rebel Village from Stage 1 to Stage 2, I took a look at the Star Wars Battlepass Tasks.

One great thing for me with LEGO Fortnite is that I can do PvE Tasks there and still complete the Main Battlepass without ever entering the Battle Royale mode. Each game mode will have its own list of Milestones, Dailies and Weeklies, but the Main Pass doesn't really care which Game Mode you're playing.

LEGO Fortnite is split between Survival Worlds and Sandbox/Creative Worlds.
Milestone Tasks move from Stage 1 to 20. The one I have not yet completed is:
Survival Milestone: Farm anything from a Garden Plot. 8 plants will take you to the next Stage.
I'm currently at 15/20 Stage and 110/120. I need to pick 2 more things to get to Stage 16, but I've already finished the Battlepass and doing other stuff instead of thinking about that one.
I completed all the other Milestone Tasks for Survival and Sandbox.

My Sandbox Dailies right now are:
Complete a Starter Shack 0/1
Build or Destroy Pieces in a Grasslands 0/50
Place Thrusters 0/12
If I build and destroy 3 Starter Shacks in a Grasslands Biome that will take me about 7 minutes.

My Survival Dailies are:
Eliminate 3 Wolves 0/3
Catch Fish 0/3
Craft E-11 Blaster Rifle 0/1
The first two will take me about 4 minutes total. I will probably ignore the Crafting one because it might take me more time than I want to spend acquiring the Resources. I'll have to check my Chests.

My current Sandbox Weekly is:
Week 4 - Defeat Frost Brute with a DL-44 Blaster Pistol, a E-11 Blaster Rifle or a Bow Caster 0/2
I'll probably ignore that one because it's more time than I want to spend on a BP Task.
I finshed all the other ones already.

My current Survival Weeklies are:
Week 3 - Craft a Glider 0/1
Week 4 - Defeat AWR Troopers 0/3
I think I don't have the Crafting Station I need to build the Glider - and I'm not interested enough to build one, so I'll probably continue to ignore that one.
The AWR Troopers are kinda rare - and I don't want to spend time hunting where they might be, so... I'm not actively pursuing that one.
I completed all the other ones. But, as you can see. I can still complete the Week 3 Task(s) even after Week 3 has passed... so, there's no fomo for the Weeklies (and it's the Weeklies that really bump you to the end of the Star Wars Battlepass).
I completed the Star Wars Battlepass a week ago, but these will also move me along the Main Battlepass path without me needing to gain BP XP from a different Game Mode.

At the start of the week, I will take maybe 40 minutes to knock out all the Dailies and Weeklies I'm interested in. Then each day, if I log in, I'll take 10-15 minutes to knock out the Dailies I'm interested in.
And usually play 4-6 hours any day that I play, so 15 minutes does not feel like a chore.
Especially when some of the Tasks can be "Eat 3 Food".

I do the stuff I like to do. Ignore the stuff that might feel tedious or like a chore.
The Battlepass can give me some Tasks to do or focus on for a bit.
The Battlepass also adds some story and some new content in the game - just not as much as a full-blown Expansion.
And... I also get a bunch of Cosmetics I like at a Discounted price. Cosmetics related to the theme of the new story content.

All of that being said...
During the 6 weeks that I was playing Nightingale, I completely ignored the Fortnite Battlepass.
Around the time I finished the available content in Nightingale with two characters, the Star Wars Update dropped in LEGO Fortnite.
I finished the LEGO Battlepass in 2 weeks and that also gave me enough XP on the Main Battelpass that I was able to complete the Main Battlepass three days later.
Happy to complete the Main Battlepass because that gives me 8 Greek Gods that I can use in LEGO Fortnite to create stories (even though the dev-curated story for the Greek Gods is in the Battle Royale and not in LEGO Fortnite).

It's all win/win.

(And, yes, while it might take 2 or 3 years to see them again, I expect that the Greek Gods will inidividually rotate into the Cash Shop for direct purchase eventually. Rather than literally being unavailable forever.)

NiKr wrote: »

BUT ALSO COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF HAVING A BP

What's the purpose of having a BP?

CROW3

Page 11 in another game of Ashes Loggerheads.

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

while Battlepasses drop new content every 3 months

You keep saying this, but what do you mean by it? Are you talking about the cosmetic rewards? And if not, then how exactly is a UI menu bringing that other content? Or are you saying that the BP pays for the new content, which is why they're always linked?

If a company can release new content every 3 months - they can just release it every 3 months. BP has nothing to do with that and has no relation to said content.

And if you do mean "cosmetic rewards" - as Mag keeps saying, that's not content for the absolute majority of players. Yes, you can RP in it or show off your grind/money to others, but the amount of people who'd call that content (or let alone "enough content to keep playing the game) is miniscule.

Because even with a full Expansion, gamers will race through that content in about 60-100 hours.
The amount of story related content with a Battlepass is probably closer to 20-30 hours.
For the players who are not interested in the Endgame BiS gear loop - the Battlepass can retain interest for 100 hours by offering Cosmetic rewards related to the story and theme of the Season.

Sure. They could just offer those same Cosmetics for direct purchase without a BP.
But, I would play 3x-4x as long with a BP than I would without a BP.
Because without the BP, I would play for 40-60 hours. Maybe buy one or two Cosmetics. And then I'd be done.
With a BP. I would play for 100 hours. And then wait a month or two for the next Season.
Rather than waiting 12-18 months for an Expansion.
That's the general answer.

Obviously, players who want to use Cosmetics to help with RP is not going to be a miniscule population in an (MMO)RPG.

For Ashes, specifically...
Nodes should help retain players - because the world is dynamic.
But, Steven also hopes to drop Seasonal DLCs and they have already had success with the APOC BP.
And because BPs are currently a very popular feature for MMOs
I expect Seasonal BPs will be the way Intrepid releases their Seasonal DLCs

(I'm gonna hope that also answers Otr's question)

Dygz wrote: »

It's all win/win.

Either your wording comes off as it, or you yourself are confusing the egg with the chicken. The BP doesn't "bring content" with it. It's the content that brings the BP so that they can make money off of people.

Epic could just release all the content you just described w/o the BP and literally nothing would change. Well, obviously, except for them making several million less for that period of time.

You keep saying that BP drops new content when that's just not true.

Dygz wrote: »

What's the purpose of having a BP?

To make money off of people. DRG's BP is apparently completely free AND adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done. So not only does it not make the money, but it also has no impact on players' ability to acquire the rewards from it later on.

Hence "there's no purpose in it".

Dygz wrote: »

Sure. They could just offer those same Cosmetics for direct purchase without a BP.
But, I would play 3x-4x as long with a BP than I would without a BP.
Because without the BP, I would play for 40-60 hours. Maybe buy one or two Cosmetics. And then I'd be done.
With a BP. I would play for 100 hours. And then wait a month or two for the next Season.
Rather than waiting 12-18 months for an Expansion.
That's the general answer.

I still cannot comprehend what's the difference between the game giving you the same rewards for the same actions and a BP doing the exact same thing but through a different UI.

But I guess it's as Azherae said - it's all about impetusing yourself. You don't have the impetus to play the game for a 100h w/o a thing making you play for a 100h.

And just to make completely sure for myself, if the game had the same reward structure as the Fortnite BP (i.e. play for ~100h and get cool cosmetics), but it would not be related to any BP-like UI or activity distribution - you would still not play the game for those 100h hours, correct?

bloodprophet

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

BUT ALSO COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF HAVING A BP

What's the purpose of having a BP?

Treating the players as loot pinatas.

Why should quests and story be tied to a paid system outside of the main game?

Otr

Dygz wrote: »

For Ashes, specifically...
Nodes should help retain players - because the world is dynamic.
But, Steven also hopes to drop Seasonal DLCs and they have already had success with the APOC BP.
And because BPs are currently a very popular feature for MMOs
I expect Seasonal BPs will be the way Intrepid releases their Seasonal DLCs

(I'm gonna hope that also answers Otr's question)

I've read the long post which describes the LEGO Fortnite experience.

Do you expect AoC BPs to be payed content for these players which you say nodes help retain?
If yes, please describe one how you imagine it to be. I am curious what kind of rewards would it provide which people would want to purchase in addition to the monthly subscription and then play it in game. Because Steven emphasized risk vs reward but money vs reward not.

If you expect AoC BPs to be payed contend for players who do not actively play the game but only during BPs then it means BPs are not for the loyal player base but for a different target audience, which for some strange reason pays subscription too... unless they have a lifetime subscription.

(( Should IS make BPs for those who do not pay subscription and also do not actively play? It is sad when you supported them as a kickstarter and you end up not playing the game. ))

If you expect AoC BPs to be free content, then I don't need a description.

Also... you say: "they have already had success with the APOC BP"
What kind of success they had?
Rating on Steam is mostly negative.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1133430/Ashes_of_Creation_Apocalypse/
And the first review written by a kickstarter backer (Leader of men $1000 tier) says:
"I am beginning to see Intrepid as a money grubbing company filled with greed."

https://youtu.be/W19ZHp8tZK0?si=tmGXgflJGywuvUhP

NiKr wrote: »

Either your wording comes off as it, or you yourself are confusing the egg with the chicken. The BP "doesn't bring content" with it. It's the content that brings the BP so that they can make money off of people.

Epic could just release all the content you just described w/o the BP and literally nothing would change. Well, obviously, except for them making several million less for that period of time.

You keep saying that BP drops new content when that's just not true.

That's semantics and it's not really a confusion of egg with chicke or chicken with egg.
BPs drop at the same time as a Season. And the have related content.
I think you had wording that said BPs never come with new content.
And I'm saying the BPs drop with the new Season and the new Season includes new content.
You can word that however you want.

Epic could release all the content I just described and I would probably finish the story content in about 20 hours. I would probably play with the new buildings I could afford from the shop for another 20-30 hours. And then I would be done until the next Season.
But, the Battlepass not only gives me more stuff to do in the game, it also rewards me with a bunch more stuff I want to play with which is also thematically connected to the story arc of the Season.

NiKr wrote: »

To make money off of people. DRG's BP is apparently completely free AND adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done. So not only does it not make the money, but it also has no impact on players' ability to acquire the rewards from it later on.

Hence "there's no purpose in it".

Which is fine, but I had never heard of DRG. How many people are playing it?
I don't think DRG adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done.
Maybe you have a better quote that supports your claim.
What I saw stated is:
"Once the Performance Pass season ends, the rewards can't be obtained by playing the game anymore. But they maaaayyy in the future eventually be added to the Cash Shop. This means that the Performance Pass items maintain their rarity and uniqueness for many months - perhaps even many years - and that feels great for gamers.
And, sometime down the line, you might be able to purchase them flat out for real world money if you missed out on earning them - which is great for both the gamers and the game's developers."
That's the same thing as Fortnite.

The purpose of a BP is to retain players a bit longer, after they have completed the new story and new in-game content. And the rewards for playing a bit longer are discounted Cosmetics related to the theme of the Seasonal story.

NiKr wrote: »

I still cannot comprehend what's the difference between the game giving you the same rewards for the same actions and a BP doing the exact same thing but through a different UI.

I think maybe you're asking if it's possible to implement the Season Pass similar to WoW?
In WoW, there is a Trader Location. You can find some NPCs nearby.

NiKr wrote: »

But I guess it's as Azherae said - it's all about impetusing yourself. You don't have the impetus to play the game for a 100h w/o a thing making you play for a 100h.

Well, again.... I play RPGs primarily for the interactive storytelling.
I'm probably not going to play a Sandbox game for long.
I will play completely through a Themepark or Themebox with 4 or 5 characters in order to explore the story from 4 or 5 different personality perspectives. And then I will be done until there is new dev-curated story and new content.
Once I've acquired all the Quest rewards 2 times on 4 different characters, I will be done. And wait 12-18 months for new story to drop.

I gather from what you've said - You like to explore all the game mechanics. You like to explore playing every Class and maybe every Race. Maybe explore how all the Weapons and Gear work. Maybe you want to explore all the Artisan Professions.

But, I'm playing primarily to RP through the story with 4-5 characters and experience how the story might be different for each of those personalities. And then - I'm going to wait for more dev curated story and new Quest rewards.
Because I want to ever quest - but I'm really only going to complete each quest about 4 or 5 times.

NiKr wrote: »

And just to make completely sure for myself, if the game had the same reward structure as the Fortnite BP (i.e. play for ~100h and get cool cosmetics), but it would not be related to any BP-like UI or activity distribution - you would still not play the game for those 100h hours, correct?

I don't know what you're trying to ask.
I don't understand how it's possible to have the same reward structure but not be related to any BP-like UI.
If it's not related to activity distribution - what activities would I be doing? And why would I be doing those activities?
If you're asking about something like the WoW Season Pass - I like the WoW Season Pass.

If devs could drop a full Expansion every 3 months, I would ignore BPs.

Dygz wrote: »

LEGO Fortnite

The games you opt to play, and the target audience for those games, continues to paint a disturbing picture.

Dygz wrote: »

Epic could release all the content I just described and I would probably finish the story content in about 20 hours. I would probably play with the new buildings I could afford from the shop for another 20-30 hours. And then I would be done until the next Season.
But, the Battlepass not only gives me more stuff to do in the game, it also rewards me with a bunch more stuff I want to play with which is also thematically connected to the story arc of the Season.

Battlepass doesn't give you more things to do in game. It makes you pay for the same amount of things to do in game.

You seem to be talking about it as if without the battlepass existing, that "content" you talk about (which is really only an exposition, not actual content) also wouldn't exist. The truth is though, without a battlepass, that content would exist, it would just be a part of the new season.

Essentially, all the battlepass is doing is preventing you from enjoying that new content at the pace in which you want to enjoy it. They are spreading out your enjoyment of it to a pace in which they want you to enjoy it.

When I saw you detail the "content" from the battlepass in the childrens game you are now playing, I was going to make an argument that Intrepid have said they won't charge for content in Ashes. However, after reading what you typed, I find that particular argument to be invalid, as your description contained no content.

As a more general argument, that would hold though. There is no place to argue that Intrepid should add a battlepass to Ashes that included content, because Steven has said they won't charge for content post launch.

Dygz wrote: »

Which is fine, but I had never heard of DRG. How many people are playing it?

A fairly nice number for a pretty niche indie game.

Dygz wrote: »

I don't think DRG adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done.
Maybe you have a better quote that supports your claim.

https://deeprockgalactic.fandom.com/wiki/Performance_Pass

Everything is completely free and goes into the game after the season is done, so nothing is fomo. This is, in a way, a perfect BP. The only reason for its existence, as I can see, is just telling people what to do in the game. At which point I'll simply agree with other posters in this thread in saying that it's a very sad state of affairs if gamers have rotted their brain to such a point where they need to be told how to play a game.

The game on its own is not gamefied enough to be a game, I guess, so they had to add a BP to make playing the game more fun.

I guesss, the other reason could also be removal of rng in the cosmetics acquisition. BP just gives you everything, while if you've missed stuff from it - you'll have to get lucky in other sources, if you wanna get the precise item you missed.

But, considering that the devs have direct control of all those other sources - this could've been designed in a different way. I also don't know how the rng works in DRG, cause it might have a system where you can't get dupes from it, at which point we're simply back to the "BP serves no purpose" thing.

Dygz wrote: »

I think maybe you're asking if it's possible to implement the Season Pass similar to WoW?
In WoW, there is a Trader Location. You can find some NPCs nearby.

That is still a BP UI, with not only seasonal rotations (obviously to keep people subbed for longer) but even with a monthly cap on currency (an even huger push for people to stay subbed).

But what I was talking about is you saying "I'd only play for 40-60h w/o a BP, but for a 100 with a BP", even though you'd literally be playing the same game, doing the same things, but now your gameplay is artificially increased because the BP is preventing you from getting your reward sooner.

Another question on this point though. If the BP required you to play for 200h to get the final reward - would you play for 200h?

Dygz wrote: »

But, I'm playing primarily to RP through the story with 4-5 characters and experience how the story might be different for each of those personalities. And then - I'm going to wait for more dev curated story and new Quest rewards.
Because I want to ever quest - but I'm really only going to complete each quest about 4 or 5 times.

And this is the exact point that, in my mind, goes directly against your liking of BPs. You limit your gameplay to a preferred point, but you're completely fine if a BP makes you play for almost twice as long to give you a reward.

I just can't wrap my head around your reasoning here. But that's beside the point now.

Dygz wrote: »

I don't know what you're trying to ask.
I don't understand how it's possible to have the same reward structure but not be related to any BP-like UI.
If it's not related to activity distribution - what activities would I be doing? And why would I be doing those activities?
If you're asking about something like the WoW Season Pass - I like the WoW Season Pass.

I'm talking about taking it even further. The cosmetics NPC never cycles cosmetics, he only gets more and more of them. And also every single activity in the game just gives you cosmetics currency.

Cosmetics in the store are priced based on that currency distribution, but are sold purely directly with a free choice of the item.

IRL money could be used to change color schemes on those items or give them some additions (i.e. a breastplate gets an insignia on it).

There's no BP UI, there's no progression line. There's no ties to seasons or whatever. You simply play the game and buy cosmetics. Certain quest lines will have their own specialized cosmetic items, so that doesn't go anywhere.

And the final point ties into this\/

Dygz wrote: »

If devs could drop a full Expansion every 3 months, I would ignore BPs.

Ashes is already planning to do that, just as Fortnite is already doing that. And, as I said, BP has nothing to do with new content, other than making people stay in the game longer for better gameplay metrics for the corpa.

Except it wouldn't be full expansions, and it would just be new pieces of content, just like seasons work in other games.

And so this then brings another question. If my suggested system was implemented - would you play the game for 40-60h and wait for the next released content, or would you play for as long as you can to get all the cosmetics that interest you in the store (while potentially throwing a buck or few here and there to maybe pick a color on them or get an addition that would match your preferred RP)?

NiKr wrote: »

Everything is completely free and goes into the game after the season is done, so nothing is fomo. This is, in a way, a perfect BP. The only reason for its existence, as I can see, is just telling people what to do in the game. At which point I'll simply agree with other posters in this thread in saying that it's a very sad state of affairs if gamers have rotted their brain to such a point where they need to be told how to play a game.

To be fair, I can see that in a game like Lego Fortnite, the target audience is probably not mentally developed enough to really comprehend the notion of a sandbox game. Being told what to do at that age is probably a requirement.

Noaani wrote: »

To be fair, I can see that in a game like Lego Fortnite, the target audience is probably not mentally developed enough to really comprehend the notion of a sandbox game. Being told what to do at that age is probably a requirement.

Nah, you're completely wrong on that part. Minecraft has been the biggest game ever and that shit is as sandboxy as it gets. And afaik that shit doesn't have a BP and only got a story waay later into its lifespan. And it has always attracted the childreniest children ever.

BPs just make use of those children. They keep the kids playing the game for longer, to keep up the metrics high. They get literally billions from them by having fomo and prolonged BP grind (because rich kids can flaunt their boosted BP cosmetics on the second day of the BP, while the poor kid has to grind for weeks for it). And on top of all of that the best cosmetics are obviously behind the paid BP, so kids beg their parents to buy it for them.

It's all a huge damn scheme to rob children of their pocket money. And it's obviously working fucking perfectly.

I just find it really interesting that Dygz' mind is also prey to these schemes. Though if he's happy playing it - all good, cause he's at least a grown man. I just don't want this shit in Ashes, because I want Intrepid to do better.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

To be fair, I can see that in a game like Lego Fortnite, the target audience is probably not mentally developed enough to really comprehend the notion of a sandbox game. Being told what to do at that age is probably a requirement.

Nah, you're completely wrong on that part. Minecraft has been the biggest game ever and that shit is as sandboxy as it gets. And afaik that shit doesn't have a BP and only got a story waay later into its lifespan. And it has always attracted the childreniest children ever.

Have you seen children play Minecraft?

Two of my nephews both love it. It isn't a sandbox game to them though.

There is a reason Microsoft released the dungeon aspect of Minecraft as a stand alone game.

BPs just make use of those children. They keep the kids playing the game for longer, to keep up the metrics high. They get literally billions from them by having fomo and prolonged BP grind (because rich kids can taut their boosted BP cosmetics on the second day of the BP, while the poor kid has to grind for weeks for it). And on top of all of that the best cosmetics are obviously behind the paid BP, so kids beg their parents to buy it for them.

It's all a huge damn scheme to rob children of their pocket money. And it's obviously working fucking perfectly.

I just find it really interesting that Dygz' mind is also prey to these schemes. Though if he's happy playing it - all good, cause he's at least a grown man. I just don't want this shit in Ashes, because I want Intrepid to do better.

I totally agree that this is what it's doing, and that it's working. it is also why Epic is probably going to lose a few billion in law suits (they are at half a billion so far) and be forced to alter their monetization.

This specific form of monetization is going to be illegal soon.

I'm not surprised that Dygz falls prey to such things. Without actually trying to be mean or anything, he does have the mind of a child in many ways.

If Steven opted to try and make this kind of thing a key part of Ashes monetization strategy, it would see the game fail -whether from lack of interest from players, or from having the basis of their monetization strategy rendered illegal at some point in the future (wouldn't be surprised if that happens before Ashes is released).

Either way, there is no need to actually worry about this kind of thing infecting Ashes.

Noaani wrote: »

Have you seen children play Minecraft?

Missed this part of the comment on the first read. I've mostly seen them play it waaay back in the past. I guess your example is just the proof of where the gaming industry has come to.

Social media has also most likely influenced how children interact with the game. All the youtubers creating stories or speedruns, or anything like that would obviously lead to children trying to imitate that in their gameplay, so the sandboxiness loses out.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Have you seen children play Minecraft?

Missed this part of the comment on the first read. I've mostly seen them play it waaay back in the past. I guess your example is just the proof of where the gaming industry has come to.

Social media has also most likely influenced how children interact with the game. All the youtubers creating stories or speedruns, or anything like that would obviously lead to children trying to imitate that in their gameplay, so the sandboxiness loses out.

This is close to my experience.

One of my nephews that "plays" minecraft makes buildings and such. He uses it as an artistic outlet. Some of his creations are quite impressive. I would have loved to see him play EQN/Landmark.

His brother uses it to make "things". He is more mechanically minded as opposed to artistic - it is a construction set to him. He'll happily build a machine to automate getting some specific resource in the game, but he never actually plays the game in a way where he needs to actually use that resource.

Both stick to their own little sphere of what they use the game for, and ignore everything else. They both do indeed have their own YouTubers that they watch (fortunately, they are both too smart to put up with TikTok), and these youTubers do give them ideas.

I actually don't fault the way either of them play the game, to be perfectly clear. They play it in a way that interests them, and the way they each play it challenges them in ways they each enjoy. It's just that neither of them make use of more than about 10% of the game.

I would think that if Minecraft had a battlepass (or other gemification system), it would completely ruin it for both of them.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Have you seen children play Minecraft?

Missed this part of the comment on the first read. I've mostly seen them play it waaay back in the past. I guess your example is just the proof of where the gaming industry has come to.

Social media has also most likely influenced how children interact with the game. All the youtubers creating stories or speedruns, or anything like that would obviously lead to children trying to imitate that in their gameplay, so the sandboxiness loses out.

I can only add as someone who works on that game ('community' and modding side, it's a platform after all) who has to research this, that's not the reason.

And it ties directly back into this. Children love sandbox games, but it has to be a true sandbox and MineCraft has technically never seriously been one. It has a whole mode for that, but part of its problem is that it is a sandbox only in the platform sense, not in the gameplay sense.

It's not that the youtubers are 'giving children something to imitate', it's that MineCraft is actually TERRIFYING if you don't play it on peaceful mode and even when you do, you still need to follow a certain play loop to actually do anything that lasts more than 5h worth of most people's interest.

It's mildly relevant to this topic, but probably not worth me expounding on other than to say that Dygz would almost certainly have the same reaction to MineCraft stuff. The described playstyle has a specific demographic that differs from yours. You'd be so different even as MineCraft players that there's no way for you to 'get it'.

bloodprophet wrote: »

Treating the players as loot pinatas.

Well, for Fortnite, it's the Cash Shop that treats players like Loot Pinatas; not the Battlepass.

There are also free Battlepass paths.
I play the free path of the WoW Battlepass.
I play the free path of the NW Battlepass.

I guess, technically I pay for the Fortnite Battlepass - but it doesn't feel like it because it comes as a perk for being a member of the Fortnite Crew: a monthly sub that costs the price of the cheapest Skin in the Item Shop.
Fortnite Crew gives 1 new Skin (which is the main reason I buy it), 1K vbucks (about $2 less than the cheapest Skin), the Main Battlepass (which will give me ~7 Skins) and the Rocket Pass (for the car racing Game Mode).
So... for less than the price of 3 Skins, at the end of the Season, I will have 10 Skins.

That's not making me a loot pinata. It's also not fucking me over.
For less than the price of 3 Skins, I end up with 10 Skins.
And I have 100 hours of fun playing the game.
That is win/win.

bloodprophet wrote: »

Why should quests and story be tied to a paid system outside of the main game?

I guess the way NiKR might phrase it is - there is a Battlepass tied to the Seasonal DLC.
But, the Battlepass Tasks can keep players who primarily play for Quests and the dev-curated story and who like Cosmetics playing twice to three times longer than it takes to complete all the Quests and the dev-curated story featured in the DLC.

The Battlepass system is not really outside of the main game.
It's kind of like questing one meta-layer above the game - similar to how an atmosphere is tied to a world.