Battlepass in MMOs

They do not contradict each other.

You continue to play even after the Quests run out.
I do not continue to play after I've completed the Quests with a couple of different characters.
You would play a Seasonal DLC for 100+ hours with or without a Battlepass.
Without a Battlepass, I would play a Seasonal DLC for 40-60 hours and then wait for the next Season DLC I like. With a Battlepass, I would play a Seaonal DLC for 100 hours and then wait for the next Season DLC.

Without a Battlepass, I basically continue playing the Seasonal DLC until Quests stop giving me rewards, too.
I will play about twice from different character perspectives to see how that changes the story - and they might get some different Quest rewards. And, when I get to the end, I stop playing.
Same as with a Battlepass.

That shit is included in the game itself.
There are no forced gameplay hours.
BP gameplay hours aren't any more forced than gameplay hours are forced for Questing or Dungeons and Raids.

Dygz wrote: »

You continue to play even after the Quests run out.

And as I keep telling you, I rarely discuss things from just my own pov. Especially when discussions go further than a single post from me saying "I'd prefer it this way". And I'd say that 15 pages of discussions is faaaar beyond that single post.

This is also why I keep saying that clearing a BP in 100h is not as casual as you make it out to seem. You're a hardcore-time player, so of course it'd seem like casual times to you, but not everyone can keep playing the game daily w/o a fail, or have additional time to play it if they do miss a few days.

I'd most likely clear those 100h within my first week, so, once again, I'm not talking about myself here.

Dygz wrote: »

BP gameplay hours aren't any more forced than gameplay hours are forced for Questing or Dungeons and Raids.

You might not consider those additional hours to be chores, but, as you said yourself in this thread, if you had to prepare for a weekly raid - you'd consider that a chore, right?

So for a person who just wants to do quests, but also likes fashion, any additional hours, outside of quests, that are required to clear the BP will feel like chores for that person, just as raid prep would feel like a chore for you.

They will especially feel like a chore if the last cosmetic in the BP is the only cosmetic this person wanted, so literally all the gameplay before that will feel rewardless, if that last cosmetic is seen as the only desired reward out of that BP's season.

And all of this is simply made worse if the person pays for the BP's cosmetics, because they want a super cool one from the far-end of the BP.

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You continue to play even after the Quests run out.

And as I keep telling you, I rarely discuss things from just my own pov. Especially when discussions go further than a single post from me saying "I'd prefer it this way". And I'd say that 15 pages of discussions is faaaar beyond that single post.

This is also why I keep saying that clearing a BP in 100h is not as casual as you make it out to seem. You're a hardcore-time player, so of course it'd seem like casual times to you, but not everyone can keep playing the game daily w/o a fail, or have additional time to play it if they do miss a few days.

I'd most likely clear those 100h within my first week, so, once again, I'm not talking about myself here.

Dygz wrote: »

BP gameplay hours aren't any more forced than gameplay hours are forced for Questing or Dungeons and Raids.

You might not consider those additional hours to be chores, but, as you said yourself in this thread, if you had to prepare for a weekly raid - you'd consider that a chore, right?

So for a person who just wants to do quests, but also likes fashion, any additional hours, outside of quests, that are required to clear the BP will feel like chores for that person, just as raid prep would feel like a chore for you.

They will especially feel like a chore if the last cosmetic in the BP is the only cosmetic this person wanted, so literally all the gameplay before that will feel regardless, if that last cosmetic is seen as the only desired reward out of that BP's season.

And all of this is simply made worse if the person pays for the BP's cosmetics, because they want a super cool one from the far-end of the BP.

Then at this point the argument against a BP is for casual players and you say you are arguing for them. Most most casuals players don't mind a battle pass, fact is they have a choice to buy it. And the market shows that it works since those players with a choice still buy it.

I don't see how you are arguing for them when they have a choice that fully empowers their decision. On top of having a market place to buy items and being able to earn things in game while playing. They will come up with their own decision or just spend extra money just cause.

Conclusion you are arguing for yourself. A casual player doesn't care what money you spend if it doesn't effect them.

Mag7spy wrote: »

I don't see how you are arguing for them when they have a choice that fully empowers their decision. On top of having a market place to buy items and being able to earn things in game while playing. They will come up with their own decision or just spend extra money just cause.

They don't have a choice. Like I said, is there a single game outside of Valve's stuff where cosmetics cost the same amount as BP's cosmetics cost?

If you can find a game with a BP and cosmetics priced at that value, and there's even a slight inclination in the game's profits having increased once the BP was implemented - I'll agree that casuals consciously choose BP instead of direct cosmetic purchases.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I don't see how you are arguing for them when they have a choice that fully empowers their decision. On top of having a market place to buy items and being able to earn things in game while playing. They will come up with their own decision or just spend extra money just cause.

They don't have a choice. Like I said, is there a single game outside of Valve's stuff where cosmetics cost the same amount as BP's cosmetics cost?

If you can find a game with a BP and cosmetics priced at that value, and there's even a slight inclination in the game's profits having increased once the BP was implemented - I'll agree that casuals consciously choose BP instead of direct cosmetic purchases.

Point of the BP is it offers a discount they do not need to be priced at a lower value that makes no sense. The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.

To even argue this irl you would have to say a store has to have all items on sale or none for people to buy. Which doesn't make any sense.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Point of the BP is it offers a discount they do not need to be priced at a lower value that makes no sense. The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.

To even argue this irl you would have to say a store has to have all items on sale or none for people to buy. Which doesn't make any sense.

If they're not the same as other cosmetics, then it's not a "sale". It's just a cheaper product.

If irl you had a store that sells you a thing you want for $5 and then a store that sells the same thing for $5, but also asks you to go through a very long maze and then asks you to run a marathon, just so you can get that thing - would you buy things from the first store or the second?

Because right now people only have the second store.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Point of the BP is it offers a discount they do not need to be priced at a lower value that makes no sense. The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.

To even argue this irl you would have to say a store has to have all items on sale or none for people to buy. Which doesn't make any sense.

If they're not the same as other cosmetics, then it's not a "sale". It's just a cheaper product.

If irl you had a store that sells you a thing you want for $5 and then a store that sells the same thing for $5, but also asks you to go through a very long maze and then asks you to run a marathon, just so you can get that thing - would you buy things from the first store or the second?

Because right now people only have the second store.

That is up tot he person to decide if the effort is worth it, during that long maze they might have fun along the way. Because they like something that they can grind. Also im guessing its a type but it would be one store sells for 10$ and the other store sells you a bundle of items for 5$ you just need to finish the maze.

People do not only have the second store that is not true. Where are you getting information suddenly people only have a second store? Ie can only spend their money on a battle pass.

Mag7spy wrote: »

People do not only have the second store that is not true. Where are you getting information suddenly people only have a second store? Ie can only spend their money on a battle pass.

You said it yourself

Mag7spy wrote: »

The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.

This means that BP's cosmetic have only one source - the BP. Which means that there's only one store to purchase them at, which is the maze store.

So, as I said, right now people don't have a choice to get the same things for the same price but w/o the additional work.

People can run the maze all they want and enjoy it all they want as well, but I'd prefer if they had a choice of running that maze, rather than it being required if they want to buy a thing.

What if a person with money knows that they won't be able to play the game for a long time (for whatever reason), but they want the BP's cosmetics, cause their theming is exactly what the person wants. Right now they'd have no way to get those cosmetics. If there was a choice (though I'd prefer simply no choice, but in my direction

) - they'd simply buy the cosmetics and be on their merry way doing irl stuff, while also giving the game more money than they otherwise would've.

The BP goes directly against your argument of "Intrepid will get more money if they have the BP".

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

People do not only have the second store that is not true. Where are you getting information suddenly people only have a second store? Ie can only spend their money on a battle pass.

You said it yourself

Mag7spy wrote: »

The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.

This means that BP's cosmetic have only one source - the BP. Which means that there's only one store to purchase them at, which is the maze store.

So, as I said, right now people don't have a chance to get the same things for the same price but w/o the additional work.

People can run the maze all they want and enjoy it all they want as well, but I'd prefer if they had a choice of running that maze, rather than it being required if they want to buy a thing.

What if a person with money knows that they won't be able to play the game for a long time (for whatever reason), but they want the BP's cosmetics, cause their theming is exactly what the person wants. Right now they'd have no way to get those cosmetics. If there was a choice (though I'd prefer simply no choice, but in my direction ) - they'd simply buy the cosmetics and be on their merry way doing irl stuff, while also giving the game more money than they otherwise would've.

The BP goes directly against your argument of "Intrepid will get more money if they have the BP".

You are fully misunderstanding what I'm saying because you want to view things in a way you are right. Im saying as an example that is not the case.

1. People can both buy form the store and buy and battle pass they work together
2. IS will make money as you see a lot of other games make money from it and the industry uses it as a standard. Though as it has a sub it wouldn't make as much money since there is less player base. But do to it being a discount people will more easily able to buy it a nd justify it over spending 20$ on one skin.

So no it doesn't go against my argument you say you are trying to see things from others, but as I said you are seeing things through how you want to, and adjusting the other views to it.

I've also went over this already they can do the wayfinder model where the BP is a loadable boardgame. This does not expire but you can only have one on at a time. So even if you didn't finish it or have multiple BP you aren't missing out on anything.

Though i have no issue with them expiring as well if their goal is to carrot on as tick casuals to feel more obligated to their own game. Over other games.

Mag7spy wrote: »

1. People can both buy form the store and buy and battle pass they work together

So what exactly did you mean by this?

Mag7spy wrote: »

The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.

Do you mean that item A will cost $5 in the direct purchase store, while it's somewhere along the BP path, which costs $10?

Or do you mean that the direct store has item A, while BP only has item B?

If it's the former, it's simply a shitty practice whose entire goal is to abuse people. You either get more money from them or more gameplay metrics, even though your content might not sustain those metrics (as Dygz keeps exampling).

And if it's the latter - it's exactly how I said. BP has the cheap cosmetics and the store has more expensive, but different, ones. I want people to have a choice to buy the cheap shit directly, because there is no reason to not have that choice, unless you explicitly want to fool people into playing your game for longer than they might've wanted or than your content fully supports.

Why do you want to fool people instead of giving them a proper choice?

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

1. People can both buy form the store and buy and battle pass they work together

So what exactly did you mean by this?

Mag7spy wrote: »

The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.

Do you mean that item A will cost $5 in the direct purchase store, while it's somewhere along the BP path, which costs $10?

Or do you mean that the direct store has item A, while BP only has item B?

If it's the former, it's simply a shitty practice whose entire goal is to abuse people. You either get more money from them or more gameplay metrics, even though your content might not sustain those metrics (as Dygz keeps exampling).

And if it's the latter - it's exactly how I said. BP has the cheap cosmetics and the store has more expensive, but different, ones. I want people to have a choice to buy the cheap shit directly, because there is no reason to not have that choice, unless you explicitly want to fool people into playing your game for longer than they might've wanted or than your content fully supports.

Why do you want to fool people instead of giving them a proper choice?

I clearly mean its like every other store that exist in the world.... Some items are full price, some are on sale, and there is also a BP you can buy, its not hard and nothing new.

BP is already a value buy that is balanced out by actually playing the game. You saying you want all the positives isn't really going to hold this is a business at the end of the day. This is why I say its a you issue, for a casual they will just work towards it and get it or not buy it. There is plenty of avenue for players to decide what they want to get, and there should be no expectation you are going to have everything on the market and be spending 1000$ of dollars on skins, that is not casual.

The reason is to have causal players playing the game, or just people in general that like having mini objectives to do, or extra BP levels to gain as they play the game and get their item (which pushes them to keep getting more). Which is a much better model than loot boxes, as this was made so you clearly know what you are getting over the rng gambling.

No one is being fooled its a choice and everyone knows the cost of things time / money/ other wise.

If its a loop people enjoy they are playing as long as they want to get the items they are going for. You can make the subjective argument people have played any game longer than the content supports. At the end of the day people will play what they have fun playing. If they stop having fun they move on and you don't get money from them.

With AoC aiming to be as dynamic as it is, I'm sure people will be fine. But any game comes a time where there is less new content. That doesn't mean you can't have a battlepass. And again AoC had plenty of choices, if they have a BP it is the best case scenario compared to any other game. You earn in game gear, market place and if it had a BP there is that option as well. Either way no one is missing out on gearing their characters look.

Mag7spy wrote: »

if they have a BP it is the best case scenario compared to any other game

And I want them to be even better than that and they totally can, w/ 0 loss to their revenue. If anything, I'm sure they'd make more money if they had super cheap cosmetics in the direct purchase store. And they'd stand out from all the other mmos as "the one that gives you exactly what you want at its exact price", while literally every other mmo is fucking people over in more than ten ways.

NiKr wrote: »

This is also why I keep saying that clearing a BP in 100h is not as casual as you make it out to seem. You're a hardcore-time player, so of course it'd seem like casual times to you, but not everyone can keep playing the game daily w/o a fail, or have additional time to play it if they do miss a few days.

And I keep telling you that 9 hours per week is casual.
Modern Battlepasses do not require people to log in daily or even weekly.
You can skip a whole month of playing and still finish the BP.
Especially with the Fortnite BP, because Weeklies are still available - even if you skip them - and it's possible to finish all those Weeklies in an hour or two.

100 hours in 3 months is Casual Time.

NiKr wrote: »

I'd most likely clear those 100h within my first week, so, once again, I'm not talking about myself here.

And, here, I was talking about people like you (and Azherae) who would continue to play even after the story and Quests are done. Including gamers who like to Raid for BiS gear.
Gamers who are going to play 100+ hours anyway.

NiKr wrote: »

You might not consider those additional hours to be chores, but, as you said yourself in this thread, if you had to prepare for a weekly raid - you'd consider that a chore, right?

A chore is something that you repeatedly do every day - typically without missing a day.
I would call Raids a tedious ordeal - and I'm not interested enough in combat or BiS Gear enough to be motivated to prep for it.
Again, here, I don't know what you mean by "additional hours".
It probably takes 100+ hours to get a full set of BiS gear for a Raid.
I'm just playing the Battlepass instead of Raiding.
But, the people who Raid would also make it to the end of the Battlepass by doing stuff they like to do - Dungeons and Raids are Tasks on a Battlepass.

NiKr wrote: »

So for a person who just wants to do quests, but also likes fashion, any additional hours, outside of quests, that are required to clear the BP will feel like chores for that person, just as raid prep would feel like a chore for you.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Battlepass Tasks are mini-Quests.
Battlepass Tasks include every category of activity possible in the game - including Quests and Bulletin Board Tasks - if there are still Quests available in the game.
The difference, there, is that new Quests with new rewards will run out before a Battlepass will.

NiKr wrote: »

They will especially feel like a chore if the last cosmetic in the BP is the only cosmetic this person wanted, so literally all the gameplay before that will feel rewardless, if that last cosmetic is seen as the only desired reward out of that BP's season.

This is you just making stuff up, but...
That is highly unlikely because all the Cosmetics on a Battlepass are going to have the same theme.
Even so. The Tasks on a Battlepass include everything any player likes to do in the game.
So, you just do the stuff you like to do. Also, some of the rewards on a Battlepass are going to include Embers or whatever Coins there are to purchase from the Store, so... people are not going to only want the final Cosmetic.
Indeed, with the WoW Battlepass - you just earn Coins to purchase what you want from the Season Pass Store - and you can check-mark items to purchase them on a later BP after the current one ends. If you think you won't earn enough to get them with the current BP.

Sure, you can make shit up to support your notion that BPs have to suck.

NiKr wrote: »

And all of this is simply made worse if the person pays for the BP's cosmetics, because they want a super cool one from the far-end of the BP.

That's not a thing.
It's just crap you make up in your head and then pretend it's real.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

if they have a BP it is the best case scenario compared to any other game

And I want them to be even better than that and they totally can, w/ 0 loss to their revenue. If anything, I'm sure they'd make more money if they had super cheap cosmetics in the direct purchase store. And they'd stand out from all the other mmos as "the one that gives you exactly what you want at its exact price", while literally every other mmo is fucking people over in more than ten ways.

So you just want everything to be dirt cheap that is not going to be the case. Them being better doesn't mean you can buy skins for 1 dollar you are just pushing Next it will be everything should be free so they are better lol.. Granted we don't know what they are doing exactly but it will be fine based on what I've seen and heard so far and they are already better than the market imo.

Endowed

Add actual game content that provides the same results.
It's why it's an mmorpg.
Battlepass is for surface skimming games. Imho.

Dygz wrote: »

The difference, there, is that new Quests with new rewards will run out before a Battlepass will.

So, you just do the stuff you like to do.

I have literally just said "the person likes to do quests" and you say "quests run out before BP does", so this person can't "do what they like" anymore, if they want to finish the BP.

And you keep saying that seasonal content ends dozens of hours before the BP's average completion time does, so what exactly is this person supposed to do for those dozens of hours? Stuff they don't like to do? Because that's the definition of "a chore" (again, second one)

How can a person keep doing their preferred gameplay to finish the BP, if that gameplay runs out before the BP finishes? And by "quests" I mean even just "npc told me to go kill 20 boars, cause he wants to make a leather coat for his daughter". BP doesn't give tasks in that way. It just tells you to kill 20 boars (that is, it simply rewards you for doing that).

This is what I mean when I say BPs are immersion-breaking. They have no connection to your effect on the game's world (outside the activity itself).

Mag7spy wrote: »

So you just want everything to be dirt cheap that is not going to be the case. Them being better doesn't mean you can buy skins for 1 dollar you are just pushing Next it will be everything should be free so they are better lol.. Granted we don't know what they are doing exactly but it will be fine based on what I've seen and heard so far and they are already better than the market imo.

Mag, I see your likes on Dygz' comments, so I assume that you've read my other posts.

I've stated several damn times, I want the direct purchase store to have both high cost cosmetics and super cheap ones. Those super cheap cosmetics are literally the same thing as getting them from a paid BP, except you don't need to grind the game for 40 fucking hours more than you had planned to.

There will inevitably be difference between BP cosmetics and the direct purchase ones, because that's what the price dictates. I simply want the option to buy the BP shit directly, instead of it being gated behind playing the game.

Endowed wrote: »

Add actual game content that provides the same results.
It's why it's an mmorpg.
Battlepass is for surface skimming games. Imho.

People will play through the new content more quickly than they can finish a Battlepass.

Dygz wrote: »

People will play through the new content more quickly than they can finish a Battlepass.

Which is fine, because that's the content Intrepid released.

There will still be a ton of pvpers and pvxers who don't leave simply because the story part ended, so it's not like everyone will stop playing, so subs will still support the game's development.

And as I gave examples before, there are ways to help others play the game for longer w/o having a BP.