Battlepass in MMOs

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You can't meaningfully ask for a better system when don't actually understand the system you're trying to critique.

I'm talking about the monetization system there.

Also, you've just said "a thing that takes a bit longer rewards the same thing that a group of slightly shorter activities does". So it's the same thing, but packaged differently. Which means that we could in fact get rid of the BP and literally nothing would change. That's great

Then we go to your point where you complained about not getting the items instantly and trying to do some convoluted annoying quest to get items. Which makes you contradict yourself.

Yeah, NiKr, Mag is right here, though.

A modern BP is 'we will reward you with lower costs or maybe exclusive items for raising our playtime metrics'.

Quests with natural, immersive rewards are the exact opposite of this.

You may not like that, but it's much less immersive overall (EDIT:) to try to make them all fit. Source: BDO, where, despite it being a SinglePlayerMMO where you can more easily justify/immerse their events since you don't need to imagine other people, it's still jarring.

You want play metrics to be maintained without the BattlePass, right? How? Ashes isn't structured quite well enough to achieve that as a primary goal, so those who are arguing 'for' a BP are just seeing that.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Then we go to your point where you complained about not getting the items instantly and trying to do some convoluted annoying quest to get items. Which makes you contradict yourself.

Azherae wrote: »

You want play metrics to be maintained without the BattlePass, right? How? Ashes isn't structured quite well enough to achieve that as a primary goal, so those who are arguing 'for' a BP are just seeing that.

I feel like you both missed me saying "have every action in the game give you cosmetic currency and then price the cosmetics according to that rate".

This is the same fucking shit that the BP does, except with a different UI.

And as for playtime metrics - I already said as well, tasks will provide replayability with rewards. The cosmetic suggestion from above will add even more rewards on top of that. And I suggested another more immersive system, that would award both types of players here

NiKr wrote: »

What if we had a "rumor board" in node taverns. A player can "subscribe" to it and the board will dm that player an interactable list of activities on login.

And those activities are gathered from players who went out to find stuff on their own. And these players can contribute info about their exploration for cosmetic currency (that is, MORE currency than other means of acquisition).

That info would be smth along the lines of "starting npc; general requirements (if any); length of gameplay; reward". And if we ever have quests/tasks that have a cycling reward structure (potentially based on seasons/weather/whatever) - the info would include that stuff as well.

The reward for submitting info would probably be either purely first come first serve, or at least have diminishing returns on subsequent submissions of the same info.

Do you think this could appeal to the BP wanters? And, Dygz, would a system like this interest you in an mmo, as a BP replacement (I'm not talking about Ashes here)?

We're still early on in the game's production. There's been literally 0 fucking talk about BPs. Dygz' only expectation is built on the fact that the BR (which is not an mmo) had one. Designing a BP reward structure right now would most likely take as long as adding what I'm suggesting, except what I'm suggesting doesn't require any new UI, because "rumors" could be included into the bulletin/tavern board as a tab. The "interactive pms to players" thing is something I'll be asking for even outside of this current conversation, because I hope chat is usable in several different ways.

The quest part of my comments was in the context of the free cosmetics that we'll already get as rewards for questing, so having slightly more rewards in those quests or having simpler quests that chain into a cosmetic reward is no different from doing random gameplay for the BP.

Mag7spy wrote: »

How many times do i need to say this YOU CAN DO ANY CONTENT IN THE GAME AND level UP THE BP. You don't need to do weekly or daily content if you don't want to.

And I keep saying that the more days you lose out on - the longer you gotta play on other days, especially if there's any daily/weekly rewards (or let alone bonus rewards based on completing several of them within a period of time, as Fortnite does).

If BPs are endless and with 0 fomo - how is that different from what I'm suggesting above? It's simply a useless UI element that also works outside of the game, if we go with Dygz' assumption that the BP will be account-wide.

NiKr wrote: »

It's simply a useless UI element that also works outside of the game, if we go with Dygz' assumption that the BP will be account-wide.

Another funny thing (for me) is that Dygz has multiple times said that he's against features working across several characters (i.e. my suggestion of account-wide PK count), but is completely fine with the BP working for the entire account rather than being per character.

NiKr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

It's simply a useless UI element that also works outside of the game, if we go with Dygz' assumption that the BP will be account-wide.

Another funny thing (for me) is that Dygz has multiple times said that he's against features working across several characters (i.e. my suggestion of account-wide PK count), but is completely fine with the BP working for the entire account rather than being per character.

Because Dygz is generally inconsistent and focused entirely on what triggers the feelings Dygz considers acceptable or correct?

Expecting some sort of specific principled framework here isn't really the best way to approach that personality type...

Well, I've said this so someone else doesn't, so I'll leave this be again.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Then we go to your point where you complained about not getting the items instantly and trying to do some convoluted annoying quest to get items. Which makes you contradict yourself.

Azherae wrote: »

You want play metrics to be maintained without the BattlePass, right? How? Ashes isn't structured quite well enough to achieve that as a primary goal, so those who are arguing 'for' a BP are just seeing that.

I feel like you both missed me saying "have every action in the game give you cosmetic currency and then price the cosmetics according to that rate".

This is the same fucking shit that the BP does, except with a different UI.

And as for playtime metrics - I already said as well, tasks will provide replayability with rewards. The cosmetic suggestion from above will add even more rewards on top of that. And I suggested another more immersive system, that would award both types of players here

NiKr wrote: »

What if we had a "rumor board" in node taverns. A player can "subscribe" to it and the board will dm that player an interactable list of activities on login.

And those activities are gathered from players who went out to find stuff on their own. And these players can contribute info about their exploration for cosmetic currency (that is, MORE currency than other means of acquisition).

That info would be smth along the lines of "starting npc; general requirements (if any); length of gameplay; reward". And if we ever have quests/tasks that have a cycling reward structure (potentially based on seasons/weather/whatever) - the info would include that stuff as well.

The reward for submitting info would probably be either purely first come first serve, or at least have diminishing returns on subsequent submissions of the same info.

Do you think this could appeal to the BP wanters? And, Dygz, would a system like this interest you in an mmo, as a BP replacement (I'm not talking about Ashes here)?

We're still early on in the game's production. There's been literally 0 fucking talk about BPs. Dygz' only expectation is built on the fact that the BR (which is not an mmo) had one. Designing a BP reward structure right now would most likely take as long as adding what I'm suggesting, except what I'm suggesting doesn't require any new UI, because "rumors" could be included into the bulletin/tavern board as a tab. The "interactive pms to players" thing is something I'll be asking for even outside of this current conversation, because I hope chat is usable in several different ways.

The quest part of my comments was in the context of the free cosmetics that we'll already get as rewards for questing, so having slightly more rewards in those quests or having simpler quests that chain into a cosmetic reward is no different from doing random gameplay for the BP.

Mag7spy wrote: »

How many times do i need to say this YOU CAN DO ANY CONTENT IN THE GAME AND level UP THE BP. You don't need to do weekly or daily content if you don't want to.

And I keep saying that the more days you lose out on - the longer you gotta play on other days, especially if there's any daily/weekly rewards (or let alone bonus rewards based on completing several of them within a period of time, as Fortnite does).

If BPs are endless and with 0 fomo - how is that different from what I'm suggesting above? It's simply a useless UI element that also works outside of the game, if we go with Dygz' assumption that the BP will be account-wide.

I'd rather buy a battle pass than do that system, and i don't even normally buy them...It sounds like a headache . And if i feel like that it be worse for a casual player, they need things that are easy to digest. BP is something they are already use to and can digest / access easily. The battelpass name, and ui can be dressed up however as long as it follows the basic format.

If you are that behind on a battle pass don't buy it, but arguments shouldnt really be around the person took to late and shows up the last 2 weeks before the battle passes ends. Also i already made the argument you can do the wayfinder approach where they don't expire (but can only have one active at a time). Personally when i do BP(free one) i dont look at weekly or daily i just play the game and it levels up.

BP UI element is very easy and quick to digest for people that trying to figure out a new strange system as i said above. You are trying to suggest a bunch of extra work that is not needed. Ro rather than a one pager you have all these other ui elements and things you need to do. Sounds like a hassle and it being over dressed.

Azherae wrote: »

Expecting some sort of specific principled framework here isn't really the best way to approach that personality type...

Yeah, it's a bad combo with my personality type, cause I keep noticing connections between comments/actions and then think to myself that the person is a hypocrite, even when usually they aren't, simply because they either don't remember what they said previously or just have wildly different approaches to details, while I try to always keep an overarching design for things.

That's definitely more of a me problem, which is why I said that it's funny to ME. And I'm sure that I've forgotten things I've said in the past as well, which is my own hypocrisy, which I dislike in myself, which is why I also dislike it in others.

Aszkalon

Otr wrote: »

Some people would like to destroy the castles you build

V Rising ? ^.^

Otr wrote: »

Anyways the Alpha 2 may be longer than we think and you will test.

Is it weird when i say, that i look forward to it with like all my Excitement and Being - and will take great Pride in being part of it, knowing it won't really be "playing" but testing ?

I hope we can make a significant Impact and Difference in helping to cut the Time a little bit shorter by all the Data we can provide with testing.

Mag7spy wrote: »

BP UI element is very easy and quick to digest for people that trying to figure out a new strange system as i said above. You are trying to suggest a bunch of extra work that is not needed. Ro rather than a one pager you have all these other ui elements and things you need to do. Sounds like a hassle and it being over dressed.

The board subscriber would literally do the same thing he does with the BP. They press a button to sub to the board, as they would to open up the BP. They press a button on login to see their tasks, just as they would with a BP, if they don't know what to do.

This suggestion was in the context of having something for the people who can't come up with a reason for playing the game more often.

The cosmetics rewards would come from doing whatever they want (the rumor board tasks included), just as I said above.

The only higher difficulty would be on the side of those who go out of their way to explore and do quests (people like me), for which they'll receive their own additional rewards.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

BP UI element is very easy and quick to digest for people that trying to figure out a new strange system as i said above. You are trying to suggest a bunch of extra work that is not needed. Ro rather than a one pager you have all these other ui elements and things you need to do. Sounds like a hassle and it being over dressed.

The board subscriber would literally do the same thing he does with the BP. They press a button to sub to the board, as they would to open up the BP. They press a button on login to see their tasks, just as they would with a BP, if they don't know what to do.

This suggestion was in the context of having something for the people who can't come up with a reason for playing the game more often.

The cosmetics rewards would come from doing whatever they want (the rumor board tasks included), just as I said above.

The only higher difficulty would be on the side of those who go out of their way to explore and do quests (people like me), for which they'll receive their own additional rewards.

Ok, so... why are you okay with this and not the BP, other than the fact that the BP can have a cost? If any reason, that is...

Basically, a free BP and a Rumor Board seems to be a UI difference, at this point, right?

Endowed

NiKr wrote: »

There's been literally 0 fucking talk about BPs.

THANK YOU INTREPID STUDIOS!

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

BP UI element is very easy and quick to digest for people that trying to figure out a new strange system as i said above. You are trying to suggest a bunch of extra work that is not needed. Ro rather than a one pager you have all these other ui elements and things you need to do. Sounds like a hassle and it being over dressed.

The board subscriber would literally do the same thing he does with the BP. They press a button to sub to the board, as they would to open up the BP. They press a button on login to see their tasks, just as they would with a BP, if they don't know what to do.

This suggestion was in the context of having something for the people who can't come up with a reason for playing the game more often.

The cosmetics rewards would come from doing whatever they want (the rumor board tasks included), just as I said above.

The only higher difficulty would be on the side of those who go out of their way to explore and do quests (people like me), for which they'll receive their own additional rewards.

If it works the same as BP then just call it a BP, no reason to over dress it or fake it. The way is see it though personally a BP is easier since i don't need to go to a bored. I just open up the UI (which could be dressed up the same as your board) in the store page or wherever it is placed. And accept my rewards, while not having to do a single task if i don't want to. Or they just complete cause they are dead easy from me playing the game however I want.

Again i don't see a BP at launch but down the road. It won't break the game if they add one in. And they still would be needing new content to the game with major expansions and such outfit wise and all.

Azherae wrote: »

Basically, a free BP and a Rumor Board seems to be a UI difference, at this point, right?

Yes, to me it's about immersion and how BPs work. And if the BP is different from how they usually work (i.e. DRG's BP) - why have it as a BP when you can just have an mmo with better rewards?

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

BP UI element is very easy and quick to digest for people that trying to figure out a new strange system as i said above. You are trying to suggest a bunch of extra work that is not needed. Ro rather than a one pager you have all these other ui elements and things you need to do. Sounds like a hassle and it being over dressed.

The board subscriber would literally do the same thing he does with the BP. They press a button to sub to the board, as they would to open up the BP. They press a button on login to see their tasks, just as they would with a BP, if they don't know what to do.

This suggestion was in the context of having something for the people who can't come up with a reason for playing the game more often.

The cosmetics rewards would come from doing whatever they want (the rumor board tasks included), just as I said above.

The only higher difficulty would be on the side of those who go out of their way to explore and do quests (people like me), for which they'll receive their own additional rewards.

Ok, so... why are you okay with this and not the BP, other than the fact that the BP can have a cost? If any reason, that is...

Basically, a free BP and a Rumor Board seems to be a UI difference, at this point, right?

Im pretty sure he meant (unless im wrong) from my understanding you would pay to sub to the board as well so that would have a cost.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Im pretty sure he meant (unless im wrong) from my understanding you would pay to sub to the board as well so that would have a cost.

No, the board is just there to direct people to content. That's it.

Like I've been saying for 15 damn pages. I want all buyable cosmetics to be given to players as soon as they pay for them. The cost of cosmetics should vary from $1 (if not below) to however much Intrepid want to set the most expensive ones to.

The cosmetic currency I talked about in the previous comments (the one that you get for doing literally anything in the game) would let you buy free cosmetics (the ones that the free BP would've had).

And I also previous suggested having additions to those free cosmetics that you could buy with irl currency. So, for example, a free cosmetic might be a chestplate and the irl currency would let you add an insignia onto that breastplate. This would be just a yet another microtransaction that would let people with less money give their money to Intrepid w/o going for a $10 BP or an expensive cosmetic.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Basically, a free BP and a Rumor Board seems to be a UI difference, at this point, right?

Yes, to me it's about immersion and how BPs work. And if the BP is different from how they usually work (i.e. DRG's BP) - why have it as a BP when you can just have an mmo with better rewards?

Expectation, mostly.

Ofc, note that I'm not complaining at all here because guess what... as usual...

https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/ARX

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Im pretty sure he meant (unless im wrong) from my understanding you would pay to sub to the board as well so that would have a cost.

No, the board is just there to direct people to content. That's it.

Like I've been saying for 15 damn pages. I want all buyable cosmetics to be given to players as soon as they pay for them. The cost of cosmetics should vary from $1 (if not below) to however much Intrepid want to set the most expensive ones to.

The cosmetic currency I talked about in the previous comments (the one that you get for doing literally anything in the game) would let you buy free cosmetics (the ones that the free BP would've had).

And I also previous suggested having additions to those free cosmetics that you could buy with irl currency. So, for example, a free cosmetic might be a chestplate and the irl currency would let you add an insignia onto that breastplate. This would be just a yet another microtransaction that would let people with less money give their money to Intrepid w/o going for a $10 BP or an expensive cosmetic.

I'm going to be expecting the prices of skin in AoC to be 10$+ and not 1$ or below. With maybe some 3-5 dollar exceptions for tiny none detailed stuff.

Pretty much to just follow the standard for the market, unless for some reason it changes. And not be cycling a board with tons of free cosmetics constantly. That doesn't make any sense to me its either being monetized (in some form battle pass and/or store) or being gear in game that drops from monsters/ etc.

Azherae wrote: »

Ofc, note that I'm not complaining at all here because guess what... as usual...

Does ED have a BP? Cause if not, then I'm fucking right yet again, and a good game is already doing what I'm suggesting.

And then a question, if there is in fact no BP: what is the players' attitude towards ED's system and is there any info about the company's earnings in relation to this?

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm going to be expecting the prices of skin in AoC to be 10$+ and not 1$ or below. With maybe some 3-5 dollar exceptions for tiny none detailed stuff.

But you're completely fine with insanely cheap cosmetics, just only if they're gated behind 100h of gameplay? How is that logical?

Mag7spy wrote: »

And not be cycling a board with tons of free cosmetics constantly. That doesn't make any sense to me its either being monetized (in some form battle pass and/or store) or being gear in game that drops from monsters/ etc.

Again, the board only points towards content. It has no relation to cosmetics or whatever.

In my suggestion cosmetics do not cycle. They simply get added to the store. You get cosmetic currency and buy said cosmetics from that store. The irl money cosmetics also simply get added to the store, at the same prices as BP's cosmetics would cost if sold separately (on top of the more expensive intricate cosmetics).

No fomo, direct purchases, super low costs (just as the BP cosmetics), no changes to player gameplay, no forced gameplay, full player choice of what cosmetic they want to get and when.

How is that worse than the BP and why would you prefer a BP over that?

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Ofc, note that I'm not complaining at all here because guess what... as usual...

Does ED have a BP? Cause if not, then I'm fucking right yet again, and a good game is already doing what I'm suggesting.

And then a question, if there is in fact no BP: what is the players' attitude towards ED's system and is there any info about the company's earnings in relation to this?

It didn't work great.

It's now starting to turn P2W due to that, actually, so the news is dominated by the reactions to that.

They never apparently made much money from it, because ED, like Ashes, is not structured for what you're talking about, and would probably have done better with a BattlePass. That's my opinion, though.

An MMORPG with a structure that would make a BattlePass unnecessary would be a great idea. Maybe we will even get one someday.