Battlepass in MMOs

Oh, and on the topic of Embers in BPs. If the free path of a completed BP gives us enough Embers to buy even just a $5 cosmetic - that means that our subs are valued at ~$13.5 rather than $15 (given that the BP is in fact 3 months long).

And if the paid BP gives even more Embers, that means that cosmetics' value is even lower than whatever's the BP cost divided by all of its cosmetics is.

So in either case we'd be getting even more fucked over if Embers were in the BP.

Mag7spy

Getting money to go towards renewing a sub from playing a game is getting f'd over. What even is this take lol.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Getting money to go towards renewing a sub from playing a game is getting f'd over

What do you mean by this exactly?

The sub cost doesn't change. Its value is simply lower to Intrepid, because they'd be giving out a cosmetic for it instead of expecting people to buy said cosmetic. This would mean that Intrepid are upselling us on the sub cost.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Getting money to go towards renewing a sub from playing a game is getting f'd over

What do you mean by this exactly?

The sub cost doesn't change. Its value is simply lower to Intrepid, because they'd be giving out a cosmetic for it instead of expecting people to buy said cosmetic. This would mean that Intrepid are upselling us on the sub cost.

You are making that up, you have to finish the battel pass to even get all the items (embers if they add that). Not to mention not everyone is going to buy it. It makes 0 sense for you to feel they are upselling a sub cost.

The only reasonable way you could make this argument imo is if the battlepass cost more than any other battlepass by the cost of the embers they give you.

Which honestly isn't reasonable to assume, buy buying the premium and finishing it up get some free embers that is a net positive for everyone.

Dygz wrote: »

It's as if you cannot read the word free.

It's as if you can't read.

What should happen, if a game that you are already paying for wan'ts a battlepass, is that they should introduce tasks, and then reward players that complete them with the cosmetic items.

That is it.

Any notion of anything paid is where the issue is - as I have said.

Again, the issue is that the people you are talking about need to pay extra in order to recieve all the rewards from the content they prefer. They should not have to pay extra, if that piece of content rewards a given cosmetic, they should get that cosmetic for completing that piece of content.

Imagine the shitstorm that raiders would bring down on Blizzard if they offered additional rewards for raiders that paid extra...

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are making that up, you have to finish the battel pass to even get all the items (embers if they add that). Not to mention not everyone is going to buy it. It makes 0 sense for you to feel they are upselling a sub cost.

Mag, I laid out my explanation.

If the completed FREE BP gives us enough Embers to get a $5 cosmetic - this means that Intrepid is ok with not selling that $5 cosmetic. This, in turn, means that they're ok with losing out on the $5 value across 3 months of subs. Which means that the cost of this cosmetic eats into the sub cost.

And the ~$13.5 only matter in the context of casuals completing the BP. Because, as Dygz loves to repeat, the current BPs can be finished way faster than even a single month. So any hardcore-time player's sub would then cost $10 to intrepid.

And again, this is if the Embers amount to only $5. Anything more is obviously even worse.

And to reiterate my point. If Intrepid are ok with me paying a "$10 sub" - why are they asking for $15?

Though this part of my argument is the weakest point, because I personally don't believe that we'd get Embers, even if we do get a BP. And I know that Dygz will say "they already gave Embers in APOC and other games do this as well, which is why I expect this".

Legi wrote: »

In general I think BPs are stupid. You buy something that gives you something if you additionally spend time in the game..?

Typically, in modern BPs, there is a free path.
You don't have to buy the free path of a BP.

Legi wrote: »

I think its a concept that prays on fomo and adds pressure to play a game to complete the pass.

Modern BPs have very little fomo and provide ample time to reach the end of the BP if you want to reach the end.

Legi wrote: »

Where you get what you pay for without additional work you need to put in. But the developer somehow has to make a living and if BPs are their way of doing it, why not.

I mean... the devs/publisher get more money from Store/Shop purchases.
But, the players who like Cosmetics will happily play the game for more hours with a BP than they would if they immediately get the Cosmetics by direct pay at full price.
The 80%-90% discount on items + Embers/vBucks/Traveler's Tender is worth doing stuff in the game that you like to but want some new rewards besides another Achievements Title.

Legi wrote: »

When you have a box prices and/or a subsciption model I dont want to see a BP, a VIP model and honestly no costume or QoL cash shop either.

Sure, but... we know the plan is for Ashes to have a Cosmetics Shop.
So, we can expect the to also have a BP with discounted Cosmetics.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are making that up, you have to finish the battel pass to even get all the items (embers if they add that). Not to mention not everyone is going to buy it. It makes 0 sense for you to feel they are upselling a sub cost.

Mag, I laid out my explanation.

If the completed FREE BP gives us enough Embers to get a $5 cosmetic - this means that Intrepid is ok with not selling that $5 cosmetic. This, in turn, means that they're ok with losing out on the $5 value across 3 months of subs. Which means that the cost of this cosmetic eats into the sub cost.

And the ~$13.5 only matter in the context of casuals completing the BP. Because, as Dygz loves to repeat, the current BPs can be finished way faster than even a single month. So any hardcore-time player's sub would then cost $10 to intrepid.

And again, this is if the Embers amount to only $5. Anything more is obviously even worse.

And to reiterate my point. If Intrepid are ok with me paying a "$10 sub" - why are they asking for $15?

Though this part of my argument is the weakest point, because I personally don't believe that we'd get Embers, even if we do get a BP. And I know that Dygz will say "they already gave Embers in APOC and other games do this as well, which is why I expect this".

It means if you finish the battle pass you get some currency back meaning buying the next battle pass will be at a reduced price so long as you finish it, or in some cases being able to finish a battle pass and get the next one fully free (though this is usually for fully free to play model with a much longer battle pass).

BP has nothing to do with sub (to play the game) so you shouldn't be trying to compare it as there should be no p2w in a battle pass.

Mag7spy wrote: »

It means if you finish the battle pass you get some currency back meaning buying the next battle pass will be at a reduced price so long as you finish it, or in some cases being able to finish a battle pass and get the next one fully free (though this is usually for fully free to play model with a much longer battle pass).

Even if this IS true - that's literally the same thing I'm complaining about, except even worse if those embers give us a completely free paid BP.

Mag7spy wrote: »

BP has nothing to do with sub (to play the game) so you shouldn't be trying to compare it as there should be no p2w in a battle pass.

Again, to me it's about the difference between what Intrepid gets and what we pay. Read my example about the 2 toys and tell me, is that a scam for you or is that a "oh, nice, I get a discounted toy"?

Because if you're ok with that kind of monetization - you simply won't understand my point.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Getting money to go towards renewing a sub from playing a game is getting f'd over

What do you mean by this exactly?

The sub cost doesn't change. Its value is simply lower to Intrepid, because they'd be giving out a cosmetic for it instead of expecting people to buy said cosmetic. This would mean that Intrepid are upselling us on the sub cost.

I think Mag is talking about earning WoW Tokens or Gold to cover the price of a monthly sub.
I'm not sure a sub will be possible with Embers for Ashes.
But, in Fortnite, I can earn 1K vBucks on the Battlepass each month - plus a bunch of Characters at 80% - 90% discount and a bunch of other stuff. The Fornite Crew costs around 1.2K vBucks per month.
Effectively, the BP covers the cost purchasing the Fortnite Crew Membership.
But... Fortnite makes most of its money from the Item Shop.

I don't know why you say "giving out a Cosmetic" and "the Cosmetic".
A free Battlepass typically has 10+ Cosmetics in addition to Embers/vBucks/Traveler's Tender.
The paid path of a Battlepass also typically has 10+ Cosmetics.
So, they give away 10 for free and then offer another 10 at a 80% - 90% discount.

The sub is going to be near the industry standard for a sub. At least $10, if not $15.
Just as the prices in the Cosmetic Shop are going to be near the industry standard(s).
Paid Battlepass would also be near the industry standard of $10. (New World is $10 every 3 months?)

NiKr wrote: »

Limit on the monthly currency in relation to how many there are and how much the items cost. WoW's BP gives you 1k points a month and literally the first item on the BP's season costs 900 points. This is the limit.

Sorry. I have no clue what you mean.
You just make shit up because you haven't played and you have to try to make the systems seem as bad as possible.
XP is not the same thing as Traveler's Tender.
You get 500 Traveler's Tender at the start of each month.

Show prep time.
More later.

Dygz wrote: »

Show prep time.
More later.

Asmon's video shows the page about the BP. You get 500 for login in and then get 500 for doing the BP tasks. That's 1k. And the items cost from 100 up to 900.

NiKr wrote: »

And I keep telling you that this price and the so called "discount" is a scam.

If a shop sold toys and there were 2 ABSOLUTELY SAME TOYS in 2 aisles, but in one aisle the toy costed $5, while in the other it costed $10. And the first toy was on "discount", but with literally 0 difference between the two. Would you not think that you're being scammed on the price of the second toy?

The toy obviously cost the manufacturers the same amount to produce, but there's 2 prices to full the buyer into thinking "ohhh, I'll get one over on this seller if I purchase the cheaper one heheh", when it's obvious beyond belief that it's the buyer who's getting fooled. This is the most basic marketing ploy and both you and Mag seem to be falling head over heels for it.

BP is not a "discount". It's simply closer to the real cost of the items being sold, while singular cosmetics fool people into thinking that by buying a BP they're getting a good deal. I want Intrepid to be more honest than that.

And yes, Ashes has already had a ton of fomo. And that shit has made it seem like a scam to thousands of people. I don't want the same to happen to the game on release. And yet here you are being completely complacent with the "expected" course of things. Why settle for shit, when you can have chocolate?

Sorry, but this is flawed and kinda dumb.
If at all the stores I go to, Funko Pops are $10.
Then I go to one store where there is an aisle with Funko Pops for $10 and another aisle for $5, I'm gonna buy the ones in the aisle where I can buy them for $5.
And, if the guy tells me he will give me 7 for free and sell 7 of them to me for $1 a piece if I spend 9 hours per week helping him with his PCs and giving him some dancing lessons. I will happily spend 9 hours "working" for those 14 Funko Pops - because I already spend 9 hours per week giving free dance lessons and helping people with their PCs. And I have fun doing that.

Especially if I typically spend $100 a month collecting Funko Pops and I really want to spend $200+ per month on Funko Pops.

Dygz wrote: »

I'm gonna buy the ones in the aisle where I can buy them for $5.

I'm going to ask why they are selling them for $5.

I can tell you now, they are doing it for their benefit, not yours.

Noaani wrote: »

I'm going to ask why they are selling them for $5.

I can tell you now, they are doing it for their benefit, not yours.

Why not both?
The benefit with a Battlepass is that the devs/publishers retain more players longer compared to not having a BP.
And it's good for an MMO to have more people playing - rather than a 60% to 75% population drop.

Especially for Fortnite - it means that players will be more likely to check their Item Shop daily or weekly... and purchase something there.

Dygz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'm going to ask why they are selling them for $5.

I can tell you now, they are doing it for their benefit, not yours.

Why not both?
The benefit with a Battlepass is that the devs/publishers retain more players longer compared to not having a BP.
And it's good for an MMO to have more people playing - rather than a 60% to 75% population drop.

Right, so if that is the benefit, why are developers charging for it?

In a free game like Fortnite, whatever. In a game with a subscription, if that content brings in or keeps in players, then have it as a part of the game itself - not as an option extra.

Again, you seem to be missing the point. We are not saying the tasks and the cosemtics shouldn't exist (that is a different argument) - we are saying that if they exist, if the developer thinks they bring people in to the game, then they should just be a part of the game as opposed to an optional extra. Sure, they can be the "free" path you like to keep bringing up that doesn't matter at all - but why does there also need to be the paid part?

Why not just have all the cosmetics be a part of a free path that has even more tasks, thus keeping people in the game even longer.

Probably the same reason why grocery stores sometimes have Buy Two For The Price Of One.

The WoW Battlepass is free.
Again - I have no clue what you mean by "part of the game" and "optional extra".
The WoW Battlepass is a part of the game. And it's as much of an optional extra as doing Endgame Dungeons and Raids.

Noaani wrote: »

Why not just have all the cosmetics be a part of a free path that has even more tasks, thus keeping people in the game even longer.

Intrepid might do that. Similar to WoW.
I expect Ashes to have a Battlepass.
Could be that the Battlepass is free, like WoW.
Could be that the Battlepass includes a paid path, like APOC.

I don't really know what you mean by "even more Tasks" - BP Tasks are quite extensive.
It wouldn't really be " even more BP Tasks" that keep people playing longer. It would be closer to more rewards so that it takes longer to collect them all.
Which WoW might already do. Kinda.

Dygz wrote: »

Probably the same reason why grocery stores sometimes have Buy Two For The Price Of One.

Speaking from first hand experience here.

If a grocery store has a deal like this, there is a very high chance that they are squeezing their supplier.

If the store is buying in an item for $2 and selling it for $3, if they put a 2 for 1 special on that item, they are probably telling their supplier (telling, not asking) that they are buying that item that week/month for $1 rather than the normal $2.

Sometimes grocery stores sell items cheap as loss leaders, but if they are doing this they are increasing the price of other items in order to cover that loss. This is actually less common than the above, but stores are quite happy for people to think this is always the case. Even when this is the case, there is usually an increase in price of other more common items (milk, bread etc), or items that go with the item with the deal (hotdog deal, but hotdog rolls are increased in price, for example).

Point is, deals are never put in for the benefit of the consumer.

Never.

I don't really know what you mean by "even more Tasks" - BP Tasks are quite extensive.

You are aware that "more" is subjective, right?

If we are talking about 2, then "more" is anything more than 2.

If we are talking about a million, "more" is anything more than a million.

I can't understand how you can claim to not know what "even more tasks" means.

I expect Ashes to have a Battlepass.

Why?

We already know Ashes will have cosmetics able to be earned in game, we know Intrepid have been told by us players that we don't want brain dead tasks like those in a battlepass, why would they add one?

Then you have the fact that the general atmosphere of Ashes is non-conductive to tasks like a battlepass would have. If they did add it, you can guarantee that the areas people need to go to add those tasks would be a hotbead of both PvP and griefing (or boarderline griefing).

In a game like Ashes, a WoW style battlepass would see people leave the game, not remain longer.

Also, congrats to Dygz on his own BP