Battlepass in MMOs

State your opinion, I'll start with mine

They're dumb they are meant for repetitive games like shooters, they give you something to do in a games that are arena pvp weather it be a MOBA or Shooter. MMOs are supposed to keep you busy. adding chores on top of that for things I should just be able to work for tends to leave a bad taste in mouth.

Also the monetization of it is kind of dumb as well. FFXIV and WoW have raked in large amounts of money just doing cosmetics on the shop, do that without the predatory fear of missing out.

One other argument for me was when I was playing NW I wanted to support the game, I bought up dyes and emotes and spent more money on that game then I have any other game as far as cosmetics, I supported it because it was simple and clean way for them to make extra money. I stopped giving them my money after they started doing the battlepass. It even made me not care about collecting all the emotes anymore. It wasn't even to protest, I just stopped caring.

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Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

For all good MMORPGs:
75% of players stop playing at Endgame.
25% will continue to play Dungeons and Raids until the next new content drop, which is typically an Expansion.
Popluation typically spikes 5x when an Expansion drops - but then players will race through that content in 100 hours and 75% will stop when they complete the new content and then wait 12-18 months for the new Expansion.

Stop making shit up - or, at least, if you are going to make shit up, make sure it is logical.

If only 25% of players remain in a game at the level cap, but then the population spikes 5x with an expansion, that means the population is now 125%. If 75% of players then stop playing after 100 hours (which in gaming terms is longer than the average game time in Skyrim, so fairly damn good for an expansion), that means that the population before the expansion was 25%, the population when the expansion was new was 125%, and the population when the expansion is played out is 31.25%.

With your figures, the population of MMORPG's would be constantly going up.

The actual truth is - of the very few MMORPG's we have figures on, and of games that are more than 5 years old, 65 - 80% of the games population have been subscribed to the game for 3 or more years without breaks (we have hard figures on this from Daybreak in 2020 - EQ2 specifically had 80.5% of it's subscribers having been subbed for 3 or more years).

I know you don't want the truth - you would rather things be the way you think they are - but in this specific case, I'm not going to let you ignore the actual truth and substitute it with your fantasy of how things are.

Dygz

Laetitian wrote: »

I told you how they suck, and you stopped after the first half of my sentence. The problem isn't that they make players not interact with the world, it's that they relieve players of the incentive to come up with their own motivations and objectives for interacting with the world.

What motivates other people to play is really none of your business.

Laetitian wrote: »

This is an intrinsic quality of battlepasses that cannot not be a part of a "modern" battle pass. (I've played plenty of "modern" games with dailies, battlepasses, and achievements, all of which lead to the same extinguishing of creativity, agency, and willingness to find people to coordinate and collaborate with.)
If you're given 3-10 tasks to complete today / this week, that's 3-10 things less you have to decide on by your own choice. 3-10 things less you will be willing to do before you'll feel like you've played enough of the game that day/week.

That's just you projecting your personal pov and playstyle onto other people.
You say you've played plenty of "modern" Battlepasses but I don't recall you sharing which games those were.
I guess I missed that if you did.

BP Tasks and BP XP are not limited to Dailies and Weeklies. There's more BP stuff to do than just Dailies and Weeklies. And that stuff covers pretty much any activity that players can do in the game - similar to Achievements. Including cooredinating and collaborating with other players. Soloers are going to Solo, regardless. Although... BP Tasks can sometimes entice Soloers to Coordinate and collaborate with other players.

Battlepasses do not extinguish creativity, agency or willingness to find people to coordinate and collaborate with. That can't truly be a thing when Battlepass Tasks include Quests and Dungeons and Raids. The primary difference is the type of Reward that is offered and how often you have to repeat stuff in order to gather the Reward.
If I have to do Dungeons and Raids to acquire BiS gear - that is less my own choice than BP Tasks.
BP Tasks offer a much, much wider range of options to aquire the desired Rewards. Also, there is no RNG to make it a gamble regarding how many times you have to repeat a Dungeon or Raid to get the full set of items you want.
Gamers could focus on doing the Dungeon and Raid BP Tasks if that's what they like to do in the game. Dungeons and Raids and other Tasks that encourage coordination and collaboration and PvP are offered Daily and Weekly on modern Battlepasses.

Finishing Dailies and Weeklies do not intrinsicly make people less willing to do other stuff after they have completed their BP Tasks. Especially since players will likely want to begin using the Rewards they've purchased/acquired as they acquire them. Especially since there is typically some thematic connection with the current Seasonal DLC.
It is not unusual for time spent in the game to also offer BP XP - sometimes that is time actively moving around in the game that provides additional BP XP. And, if you gain BP XP by actively moving around, it might as well be by doing the stuff you typically like to do.
It's not really any different than being motivated by Adventurer XP or Artisan XP. It's just a different type of XP for players to pursue after they have already maxed Adventurer XP on 1+ characters. And BP Rewards are different Rewards to pursue other than repeating Boss fights to acquire BiS gear.
Although, again... gamers who wish to focus on Dungeon and Raid BP Tasks would be able to do that without ever looking to see what the Daily and Weekly BP Tasks are.

Laetitian wrote: »

Not having to make that decision in order to keep playing the game is literally the primary function you've been requesting and championing the battlepass for. You've been imploring us to let you have your externally superimposed motivation to log on.

That is not the case at all. I always decide what I'm going to do on any given play session.
I typically play 8 hours per day - even though I can finish the Dailies and Weeklies in 20-40 minutes.
I have painstakingly explained that I choose which Dailies and Weeklies I'm going to complete.
Also, just because I complete the Dailies and Weeklies in 40 minutes does not mean there is nothing else I want to do in the game.
I might want to Gather Resources in order to prep for future Crafting BP Tasks - similar to prepping for the next Dungeon/Raid run. I might want to Craft some more stuff - especially since there will likely be some Durability loss on Gear. Which also means I might want to be interacting with the Player Economy to keep my Gear Repaired. Many reasons to do other stuff in the game after the Dailies and Weeklies are completed - esepcially since that time in the game will also be building up BP XP in several ways.

But, also...
I have not been requesting anything nor have I been imploring anyone to let me have anything.
That is another projection of yours.
If you have actually read what I've written, you should know that I won't be playing Ashes in any way that I would benefit from a BP. In Ashes, I would be completely ignoring a BP.
Because all I will be doing in Ashes is exploring the map.
What I said is that I expect Ashes to have a BP - and then I've explained why I have that expectation - and, yes, championed that modern BPs objectively do not suck.
Because they do not work the way you think they work.

Laetitian wrote: »

You already have your mission. If anything another player suggests or any cooperation with another player that you take into consideration while pursuing your task list becomes even remotely tedious or inconvenient, you now have no reason to tolerate that frustration for the sake of the long-term benefit. Because you have your missions laid out for you, and any self-made decision to cooperate is merely a cherry on top.

No....
Most BP Tasks are much, much simpler than a mission.
Most BP Tasks you can complete while doing what you normally like to do when you play.
"Eat Food 0/3" is not a mission. It is something that players are likely to do within the span of one game session.
"Craft Any Weapon/Tool 0/1" is not a mission. That can typically be completed within 2 minutes.
"Use The XX Emote 0/5" is not a mission.
"Craft (Specific) Weapon 0/1" might be enough of a "mission" that I choose to ignore it I'm not in the mood to Gather the specific Resources, or I might choose to spend the time pursuing that Task the same way I would pursue a Quest. If I'm in the mood to Solo, I would Solo it. If I'm in the mood to Group, I would Group.
If I chose to Gather Resources, I would probably spend more than an hour Gathering extra Resources to bring back for my friends.
Of course, with Ashes I won't be doing any of that because I will not be Gathering any Resources at all.

Some BP Tasks include completing Quests, Bulletin Board Tasks, Dungeons and Raids.
Those can be missions. For players who like to Group rather than Solo - a BP Task does not interfere with coordinating Quests, Dungeons or Raids. Nor do they make those activities tedious or frustrating
Especially since a BP Task (if it's a Daily) would typically be:
"Complete Any Raid 0/1"
Individuals can choose to complete that Daily or ignore it.

I wonder what "frustration" you are talking about.
The only "frustration" I have in MMORPGs are non-consensual PvP and Group leaders kicking my friends from the Group because their DPS scores weren't high enough on a DPS meter.

Any time I play an MMORPG, I have goals set for my game session. And that mostly depends on the XP and rewards I'm pursuing. If I haven't completed all the new content yet - BP XP and BP Rewards are icing on the cake. If I have finished all the cake already, I would probably be up for licking up some extra icing.

It's already the case that I'm going to decide based on my moment-to-moment mood whether or not I'm going to Solo or actively interact with other players.
My Bartle Score is: Explorer 87%; Socializer 73%; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
If I'm in the game world, I'm highly likely to socialize with others even when I am not grouped with them.
The vast majority of the time, my interaction with other players will be cooperative because I am non-compatitive.
I rarely PvP - but Battlepasses can entice me to PvP when I normally wouldn't - if it's going to move me towards a Cosmetic item I want more quickly. Even though, since my Killer score is 0%, I'm more likely to find PvP to be tedious. To the degree that I almost always ignore PvP Quests - especially since I don't care about the Rewards that come with PvP Quests. A BP PvP Task that rewards me with a Cosmetic will motivate me to PvP more easily and quickly than a PvP Quest that rewards XP and Stat Gear.

Player interaction is mostly going to be decided by playstyle, rather than by a BP Task.

Laetitian wrote: »

Whereas without the battle pass, you'd be encouraged to come up with your own goals and commit to your decisions and group projects in order to make things happen.

No. When it comes to Seasonal DLCs, without a BP, the vast majority of players would quit playing once they completed all the new content in 20-30 hours. A relative few might replay on an alt - so 40-60 hours.
But, a BP can entice those players to play for 80-100 hours by rewarding them with BP XP and Cosmetics.
BP Tasks in no way interfere with group projects for players who are interested in group projects.
If I'm Gathering Resources to complete a Crafting BP, I will happily spend an extra hour Gathering Resources for group projects. BP Tasks complement general gameplay. Because you choose the Tasks you want to do and ignore the BP Tasks that don't align with the other goals for your play session.
With modern BPs, you don't have to always complete every Daily or every Weekly.
There is much more freedom there than in the past - where, yeah, if you ignored a Daily or Weekly that meant it would be impossible to reach the end of the BP path. But, modern BPs are nothing like that.

Maybe... back in the day...Dailies were more like, "Crap! If I don't finish this mission today, I will be sent back to the start of the path and I will never be able to acquire the final, uber, most-greatest Reward ever!"
But, modern BPs have almost non-existent fomo.

Laetitian wrote: »

None of this is solved by the "possibility" to cooperate anyway. Your argument falls completely flat, it doesn't address the issue at all.

That is not really a thing that needs to be solved.
It's going to mostly depend on individual playstyle and moment-to- moment moods of each player.
Though, sure, Battlepass Tasks can sometimes entice players to momentarily adjust their playstyle.
Especially towards more player interaction. In a wide variety of ways.

Laetitian wrote: »

The only interaction and cooperation you get from this side effect is purely cosmetic. It's the illusion of player interaction. Giving away scraps, and co-operating purely when it happens to be so convenient that you have no reason to put a single thought into the decision

What in the world are you even saying?
How is giving lowbie items to lowbies the "illusion" of player interaction?
How I dispose of an item I've Crafted is going to literally be my decision - not a choice made by the game.
The game has offered me a Task - just as the game might offer me a Quest.
The difference is that there will be dialogue and an NPC directly attached to a Quest and there will be Gear with balanced Stats directly associated as a Reward - which takes signifcant time for the devs to create, implement and test.
While a BP Task is more generic, does not have dialogue that needs to be written, does not have an NPC that needs to be created, and does not have a direct reward which gears stats that have to be tested, so it's quicker and easier for the devs to implement and very little testing is required.
I can always choose to ignore a BP Task and choose a different one... and/or wait for a day where there is a Daily I like or that fits better with my mood and other game session goals.
And I definitely get to choose whether I destroy the item I've Crafted for a BP Task and interact with nobody else or I choose to share the item via my Personal Shop or Player Stall or via the Auction House or travel to a Portal and gift it to a newbie. There are no illusions associated with those choices. They are all actual choices.
Your pov is a delusion in your own mind.

Laetitian wrote: »

The whole point of player cooperation is making choices together. Overcoming obstacles. Weighing cost-and-benefits. Optimising gameplay so everyone's happy with the result. Working on flaws because you care about the result. Being creative about new ambitious plans together. At the centre of player coordination is overcoming challenges.
Opportunistic player interaction is effectively no player interaction.

Well... I find your pov to be patently absurd.
There are plenty of other ways to cooperate with other people and benefit other players without making decisions together.
Especially in MMORPGs with Gathering and Crafting via asynchronous gameplay.
Might not fit your subjective vision of cooperation. Sure. Some people are weird. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Playing does not have to include optimising. But if you are obsessed with optimising play - sure, your pov fits that obsession.
I am a Casual Challenge player rather than a Hardcore Challenge gamer - which is why I'm going to be more motivated by simple BP Tasks that reward Cosmetics compared to player coordination that requires ambitious plans to overcome challenges in order to obtain Gear with higher stats.
I'm pretty sure that BPs are not designed for your playstyle. But, typically MMORPGs support multiple playstyles.
Ashes isn't necessarily doing that, but...
Ashes will have a Cosmetic Store and Seasonal DLCs and BPs work as a great complement for both of those... and also Steven implemented a BP for APOC.
So, I expect Ashes will also have BP. Especially due to the current trend of MMOs having BPs.

Laetitian wrote: »

You can't seriously think that that's an argument. If a battlepass task is expected to be fulfilled without paying any attention to it, what's the point of its existence? What does it add to your experience?

It's not intended to be an argument. I'm sharing the explanation.
A BP offers a different set of XP and Rewards for players who are not motivated to repeat completed content via the hunt for BiS gear from Dungeons and Raids. The point is to entice players who typically quit at Endgame to continue playing after they have completed all the new content.
If you never look at the BP Tasks, you might not reach the very last reward.
But, you will still have a bunch of Embers/vBucks/Traders Tender/Stars/Studs and BP XP to spend just from coincidentally completing Dailies, Weeklies and Milestones - because you get BP XP just by doing the stuff you like to do in the game.

What BPs add to the player experience is an extra form of XP and an extra form of Rewards - that are especially enticing to players who have little interest in repeating Boss Battles to earn statted BiS Gear.
Especially after Adventurer/Artisan XP are maxed (on more than one character).
If you're going to be repeating content anyway due to your playstyle... free BPs will just give you some Embers/vBucks/Traders Tender/Stars/Studs and BP XP you can use when you're ready - it just won't be the maximum amount that you could have had if you focused on playing the BP rather than coincidentally playing the BP.

Laetitian wrote: »

That section of the battlepass doesn't exist.

That is so delusional, I can barely understand what you hope to mean.
If there is a Daily to "Eat Food 0/3" and you coincidentally eat 3 Food without ever looking at the BP Tasks, you still get the Rewards/XP for eating 3 Food.
If there is a Daily to "Deal 500 Melee Damage" and you coincidentally deal 500 melee damage without ever looking at the BP Tasks, you still get the Rewards/XP for deal 500 melee damage.
How does that "section" of the Battelpass not exist. It's like saying you can't complete any Achievements if you never look at the Achievements List. Why do Achievements exist?

I can coincidentally complete 17/20 locations in the Explore Pandaria category of Achievements without ever looking at the Achievements UI. If I want the Title for completing that Achievement, I would most likely have to open the Achievements UI and be sure I find those last three locations.
A primary difference with a BP is that you don't have to make it all the way to the end of a BP to get Rewards.
Using the APOC BP as an example - at 85% completion of the free path, players would have ~8 Cosmetics and 300 Embers.
Maybe, realistically for an MMORPG, a player might coincidentally complete 50% of the free path.
4 Cosmetics and 150 Embers is still a good amount of extra stuff just for playing the game the way you like to play it while ignoring the BP UI.

Laetitian wrote: »

It's a fake component of free/low-price premium stuff that only actually materialises because you were online in the game without being afk. It should be replaced by a timer, if it should exist at all.

No. It's additional BP XP which moves you along the BP Path more quickly than any BP XP derived from being in the game afk. AFK BP XP would typically have a daily cap. Most likely players would not be able to reach the end of the BP path just from AFK BP XP.
The mechanic you suggest is what's fake. It's another "Moon is made of green cheese" statement. And is not at all refelctive of how BPs truly work.

Laetitian wrote: »

Ignoring the part where I just told you I would not continue playing the game as I otherwise would, if a significant portion the playerbase is spending their time online in the game chasing Battlepass objectives.

There really would be no way for you to ascertain whether other players are playing the BP - besides them using the items they acquire from the BP.
What's the difference between players chasing Quests/Bulletin Board Tasks and players chasing BP Tasks?

Laetitian wrote: »

I've quit other MMOs because of these types of tasks and the disinterest towards cooperation they create.

Which MMOs and when?

Laetitian wrote: »

Why are the players you're trying to protect from uninspired boredom more important than the players who want people around them to be prepared to declare their own objectives in the game, and be ready to cooperate in order to achieve them where advantageous?

I don't even know what you're trying to declare, here, but...
The devs are going to want to retain the 75% of the players who quit playing once they complete all the new content and are not motivated by hunting for BiS gear via Dungeons and Raids.
Seasonal DLCs are only going to have ~20-30 hours of new content. BPs can entice Casual Challenge players to continue repeating completed content for 80-100 hours. And that really has less to do with boredom and everything to do with no longer having Adventurer/Artisan XP flowing in and already collecting all the new stat Gear they want... and not being interested in repeat Dungeon/Raid Boss fights ad nauseum.
Game devs are going to try to retain as much of the player population as they can for as long as they can.

Laetitian wrote: »

(Especially when being uninspired and bored are things you can fix yourself. Being surrounded by worker drones incentivised to focus on ticking off task lists isn't something other players can confront without appealing to the developer not to sabotage their player interaction.)

Yeah... I don't know what that is supposed to mean.
75% of MMORPG players quit after they reach Endgame on 1 or 2 characters.
So, we know that the vast majority of MMORPG players are not going to "fix" being "uninspired and bored" by themselves. They are going to quit and wait for new content, more XP and new Rewards before they return to play the game.
Players ticking off BP task lists is pretty much the same as players ticking off Quest lists, Bulletin Board Tasks, Dungeons, Raids and BiS Gear lists. It's just an alternative category of lists with alternative XP and alternative Rewards.
Do a bunch of stuff in the game and continue to earn XP and Rewards that are an alternative (and complementary) to Adventurer/Artisan XP and Rewards.
Players can do all of that at the same time or focus on BP Tasks once Adventurer/Artisan XP and Rewards have all been completed (multiple times).

Laetitian wrote: »

To be perfectly clear, I don't mind players rejecting any particular group endeavour. I just don't want them to be given meaningless task lists that specifically exist to give them something to do, disincentivising them to come up with/cooperate on endeavours that they care about or choose on their own.

Yeah, but that's your subjective, judgemental hang up.
BP Tasks are not objectively meaningless. They may seem subjectively meaningless to you. But the world does not revolve around you.
Quests give players something to do - with comensurate Rewards.
Dungeons give players something to do - with comensurate Rewards.
Raids give players something to do - with comensurate Rewards.
Achievements give players something to do - with comensurate Rewards.
Also BP Tasks give players something to do - with comensurate Rewards.
None of them disincentivise players to come up with/cooperate on endeavours that they care about or choose on their own.
By meaningless, you seem to mean that BP Tasks are menial and don't require players to Group in order to be creative about devising the META to coordinate and overcome Hardcore Challenges.
But, in an MMORPG, that is just one playstyle, where several playstyles should be supported. And BPs support the Casual Challenge playstyle: a playstyle that typically abandons MMORPGs en masse once all new content has been completed - which for a Seasonal DLC will be ~20-30 hours.
And a BP can retain those players for 80-100 hours.

To be perfectly clear, I don't care whether or not Ashes has a BP.
I'm not going to be playing Ashes in any way that a BP is going to matter because the only thing I will be doing in Ashes is exploring as much of the map as possible while maintaining the lowest Adventurer Level possible:
0 Kills
0 Resources
Whether you or I enjoy BPs will have no bearing on whether Steven chooses to implement a BP.

Ashes will have a Cosmetic Store and Seasonal DLCs... and BPs work as a great complement for both of those... Also, Steven implemented a BP for APOC.
So, I expect Ashes will also have BP. Especially due to the current trend of MMOs having BPs.

Laetitian

Dygz wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

This is an intrinsic quality of battlepasses that cannot not be a part of a "modern" battle pass. (I've played plenty of "modern" games with dailies, battlepasses, and achievements, all of which lead to the same extinguishing of creativity, agency, and willingness to find people to coordinate and collaborate with.)
If you're given 3-10 tasks to complete today / this week, that's 3-10 things less you have to decide on by your own choice. 3-10 things less you will be willing to do before you'll feel like you've played enough of the game that day/week.

Battlepasses do not extinguish creativity, agency or willingness to find people to coordinate and collaborate with. That can't truly be a thing when Battlepass Tasks include Quests and Dungeons and Raids.
[...]
BP Tasks can sometimes entice Soloers to Coordinate and collaborate with other players.
[...]
By meaningless, you seem to mean that BP Tasks are menial and don't require players to Group in order to be creative about devising the META for to coordinate and overcome Hardcore Challenges.

You're either not listening, or you're so lost in your externally commanded game loops that you can't process the concept of a player having an original idea and coming up with self-declared objectives. I described precisely how battlepass tasks get in the way of player-driven choice, and you're just repeating "but for some of them you have to/can cooperate anyway!" - and later "they don't take up much time, so it doesn't matter" (20-40 minutes looks like a lot more of the average player's time & energy when you remember that most people don't play 8 hours a day.) - as if I had never made my response.

Dygz wrote: »

There's more BP stuff to do than just Dailies and Weeklies. And that stuff covers pretty much any activity that players can do in the game - similar to Achievements.

Yeah, there's also monthlies and seasonalies.
Dailies aren't defined by their frequency, they're defined by being externally superimposed lists of tasks that regularly get refreshed. Otherwise, if there was any significant creative agency in the process of finding and choosing them as an active activity, we would call them quests.
And yes, it's like achievements.
Maybe I should call them "repeat tasks" so you understand just how much everything that's in a battlepass is intrinsically always a part of the same category of tasks as dailies.
Achievements are just as bad in stifling player creativity/agency/cooperation, but at least they can be finished at some point and give players a chance to catch a breath, come to their senses, and regain awareness of their surroundings.

Dygz wrote: »

Finishing Dailies and Weeklies do not intrinsicly make people less willing to do other stuff after they have completed their BP Tasks.

They do. They might not prevent it entirely, but everything battlepasses represent disincentivises being creative to achieve something unique or ambitious.
For the time you're running a battlepass task because you want to finish your battlepass, you're intrinsically not coming up with your own way of achieving something in the game that you care about. You're running off a predetermined list of tasks that gets refreshed by the devs for you.
While you're running BP tasks, you're incentivised to disregard everything that's less convenient than the battlepass itself, and give up care about anything that's less convenient to achieve than the battlepass, because the existence of the battlepass as a "good enough" reason to log on reassures you that at the end of the day, at least you got your battlepass tasks done, so you can log off satisfied, regardless of how little else you chose to do in the game, or which self-declared spontaneous or long-term projects you abandoned because they became difficult.

Dygz wrote: »

Whether you or I enjoy BPs will have no bearing on whether Steven chooses to implement a BP.

That's not true. Anyone designing a game meant to inspire people to make their own choices and care about discovering interesting things to do in the world would steer very clear from ever adding a battlepass after reading the game loop you're describing.

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not going to be playing Ashes in any way that a BP is going to matter because the only thing I will be doing in Ashes is exploring as much of the map as possible while maintaing the lowest Adventurer Level possible:

I'm happy you've found your objective in the game. i just don't want other players to get their purpose superimposed on them.

Dygz wrote: »

75% of MMORPG players quit after they reach Endgame on 1 or 2 characters.
So, we know that the vast majority of MMORPG players are not going to "fix" being "uninspired and bored" by themselves. They are going to quit and wait for new content, more XP and new Rewards before they return to play the game.

How many of the games you're referring to already had dailies or battlepasses before their playerbase jumped ship?
How many of those players might have ended up fixing being uninspired or bored, if the people around them hadn't been too busy running dailies to be inspired to come up with their own endeavours in the game?
Running externally superimposed tasks is what drains people of the pressure to get creative themselves. To be inspired by other players.
If your default gameplay loop staple is the antithesis of coming up with your own objectives and overcoming difficulty to achieve great things, chances are there won't be as many players having those ambitions and joining together in the endeavour.

It all comes back to my first serious response to you in this thread. Adding superimposed task lists intrinsically gets in the way of making developers design a game that's inspirational and fun enough to make players care about the world and what happesn in it, and make them *want* to come up with their own things to do and influence in the game. It's antithetical to having a captivating game that you would then slap a bunch of uninspired externally mandated tasks onto its players. The tasks should already be in the game itself, and available for players to come up with as they play the game.

Ludullu

A reaction from current gamers to the newest BP (i.e. current) in a b2p game.
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxs07dSP8Nifjn2qqAgsm1PGJ3FNoo_sCU?si=HhU7DAohDRSgIcm3
And this is supposedly on top of removing the free BP from the game, which means that just having a BP in the game didn't lead to increase of playtime/overall income, as Dygz and Mag have been suggesting.

I really think that Dygz is an outlier with his attitude towards BPs. And as this thread has shown, majority of gamers dislike stuff like this, ESPECIALLY when it's in a game that already costs money.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

A reaction from current gamers to the newest BP (i.e. current) in a b2p game.
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxs07dSP8Nifjn2qqAgsm1PGJ3FNoo_sCU?si=HhU7DAohDRSgIcm3
And this is supposedly on top of removing the free BP from the game, which means that just having a BP in the game didn't lead to increase of playtime/overall income, as Dygz and Mag have been suggesting.

I really think that Dygz is an outlier with his attitude towards BPs. And as this thread has shown, majority of gamers dislike stuff like this, ESPECIALLY when it's in a game that already costs money.

So tons of people are hating on certain elements on ubisoft and using any reason to hate on it, and now you are using it as an example against BP.

Again as i said before if you are on youtube looking to reaffirm your echo chamber you are clearly not looking for logical takes. But any kind of thing where you can twist it to suit what you want to hear. And ntot logicialy break down on the reasons for the actual reactions.

Also you are not the majority of gamers forums is a certain type of player, and extremely small in scale. Pretty much you recognize most people. And its the same exact people arguing with not many new people so i dont know how you even come to that conclusion like 15 people is suddenly able to represent the majority.

My guild thinks your takes are silly also, but they aren't obviously going to argue on the forums as many other people. No P2W, optional, has a entire things in game to earn, can use the market place instead of store, the majority of player don't care if there is a battle pass and some will buy it and some won't That is the reality.

To say anything else means you are looking for something to reaffirm you are right or something that has 0 impact on you.

Mag7spy

@Laetitian not going to argue your points since someone can already do that easily. But honestly I think you have lost the plot so hard with pretty much all your takes there.

*edit
The size of post here are going to end up getting details lost, imo its at the point where a voice conversation is the best way to describe things more clearly and get concise answers.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

The size of post here are going to end up getting details lost, imo its at the point where a voice conversation is the best way to describe things more clearly and get concise answers.

Voice is never the best way to discuss in-depth topics.

Though I mostly think that because it's way easier for me to properly think out a response and then write it out as well as possible, while yapping would never accomplish that. I feel like that preference might be linked to inner monologues and aphantasia-type stuff, but I've never really read up on any research into that topic/idea.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

The size of post here are going to end up getting details lost, imo its at the point where a voice conversation is the best way to describe things more clearly and get concise answers.

Voice is never the best way to discuss in-depth topics.

Though I mostly think that because it's way easier for me to properly think out a response and then write it out as well as possible, while yapping would never accomplish that. I feel like that preference might be linked to inner monologues and aphantasia-type stuff, but I've never really read up on any research into that topic/idea.

Organized voice is the best way to do it, and forums is the worse place. Allows you to make wild points and not actually defend anything and move onto another direction. It gets based on general feeling and is very bias on certain types of people / players.

Dygz

Laetitian wrote: »

You're either not listening, or you're so lost in your externally commanded game loops that you can't process the concept of a player having an original idea and coming up with self-declared objectives. I described precisely how battlepass tasks get in the way of player-driven choice, and you're just repeating "but for some of them you have to/can cooperate anyway!" - and later "they don't take up much time, so it doesn't matter" (20-40 minutes looks like a lot more of the average player's time & energy when you remember that most people don't play 8 hours a day.) - as if I had never made my response.

I am listening.
You can repeat that the Moon is made of green cheese all you like. That doesn't make it true.
You can give a detailed account of why we live in a geocentric universe as much as you like. That doesn't make it true.
20-40 minutes per game session is exceedingly Casual Time for MMORPG players. Especially for an MMOPRG with no Fast Travel.
Most MMORPG fans are going to have game sessions that are considerably longer than 20-40 minutes on the weekends. Sure, that might be 3 hours per game session instead of 8 hours. But, 20-40 minutes out of 3 hours still leaves plenty of time to do a bunch of other stuff.
9 hours per week is Casual Time for an MMORPG. And it's typically possible to get to the end of a BP by doing the stuff you like to do in that time frame - including coordinating and cooperating with other players.

Laetitian wrote: »

Yeah, there's also monthlies and seasonalies.
Dailies aren't defined by their frequency, they're defined by being externally superimposed lists of tasks that regularly get refreshed. Otherwise, if there was any significant creative agency in the process of finding and choosing them as an active activity, we would call them quests.

I have never heard of nor experienced a "Monthly" Task or a "Seasonal" Task.
So, I'm gonna lump that over with your "Moon is made of green cheese" claim.
Quests are more substantial than BP Tasks in a variety of ways:
Each Quest has substantial dialogue written for it, and sometimes voice recordings. NPCs will be designed and associated with them. And they will also, most frequently, have stat Gear as a reward - all of which needs to be balanced and extensively tested. BP Tasks are much simpler than Quests.
Bulletin Board Tasks are super-imposed lists of tasks that regularly get refreshed.
Dungeons are super-imposed lists of tasks that regularly get refreshed via respawns.
Raids are super-imposed lists of tasks that regularly get refreshed via respawns.
Mobs are super-imposed lists of tasks that regularly get refreshed via respawns.
Resources are super-imposed lists of tasks that regularly get refreshed via respawns.
There is no more "creative agency" involved in players finding Quests, Bulletin Board Tasks, Dungeons, Raids, Mobs or Resources than there is in finding BP Tasks. And there is as much agency in choosing which BP Tasks you wish to complete during any game session as there is in choosing which Quests, Bulletin Board Tasks, Dungeons or Raids you wish to complete or in choosing which Mobs/Resources you wish to grind.
The choice to complete a BP Task does not intrinsically negate or interfere with a choice to complete Quests, Bulletin Board Tasks, Dungeons or Raids - rather BP Tasks complement those other choices.
Players can actually creatively synchronize BP Tasks with other goals for the game session.
A player can also creatively synchronize BP Tasks with the game session goals of other gamers.

Laetitian wrote: »

And yes, it's like achievements.
Maybe I should call them "repeat tasks" so you understand just how much everything that's in a battlepass is intrinsically always a part of the same category of tasks as dailies.
Achievements are just as bad in stifling player creativity/agency/cooperation, but at least they can be finished at some point and give players a chance to catch a breath, come to their senses, and regain awareness of their surroundings.

I would say the say the same thing about hunting BiS Gear in Dungeons and Raids during Endgame and grinding individual mobs and Resources.
Daily Tasks can be quickly finished and give players a chance to catch a breath and regain awareness of their surroundings - much more quickly than completing a Quest. Same for Weekly Tasks.
BP Tasks are typically so trivial a player will rarely be "out of breath".
You don't need time to "catch a breath" just from eating Food 3 times in a game session.
I have no clue why think that doing a BP Task would cause a player to be unaware of their surroundings: that's just another paranoid, hyperbolic "Moon is made of green cheese" claim.

Laetitian wrote: »

They do. They might not prevent it entirely, but everything battlepasses represent disincentivises being creative to achieve something unique or ambitious.

Nope. That is another "Moon is made of green cheese claim."
Apparently, they do that for you and you want to project that on everyone else.
But, that is really just your own personal hang-up.

Laetitian wrote: »

For the time you're running a battlepass task because you want to finish your battlepass, you're intrinsically not coming up with your own way of achieving something in the game that you care about. You're running off a predetermined list of tasks that gets refreshed by the devs for you.

What??
I complete BP Tasks because I want a form of XP and coins that are going to reward me with Cosmetics.
Just as I complete Quests because I want a form of XP and coins that are going to reward me with stat Gear.
I still have to choose how I wish to complete a BP Task and where. I still have to choose what else I might be interested in doing in addition to completing which ever BP Tasks I choose to focus on during each specific game session.
Many gamers do not come up with their own way of completing Dungeons or Raids... or Quests. They rely on a META or walkthrough that other players have concocted.
Mob/Boss fights are just as much a predetermined list of tasks that get refreshed by the devs for you.
Same with Gathering Resources.

Laetitian wrote: »

While you're running BP tasks, you're incentivised to disregard everything that's less convenient than the battlepass itself, and give up care about anything that's less convenient to achieve than the battlepass, because the existence of the battlepass as a "good enough" reason to log on reassures you that at the end of the day, at least you got your battlepass tasks done, so you can log off satisfied, regardless of how little else you chose to do in the game, or which self-declared spontaneous or long-term projects you abandoned because they became difficult.

Nooooo.
My Bartle Score is: Explorer 87%; Socializer 73%; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
My primary activity when playing a MMORPG is to uncover the map as quickly as possible before running into skulled mobs that can one-shot me. During that phase of a game session, I'm not going to be open to coordinating with other players in the first place. I sometimes spend hours just swimming around continents.
A Daily can incentivize me to go interact with other players for 20+ minutes before I start the exploration phase of my game session. If I have not yet completed uncovering the entire map.

Again, you are thinking that BPs are only Dailies and Weeklies. And once you complete those, there's no reason to stay logged in and do other stuff. That is inidicative of old, outdated Dailies. Yes.
That does not at all reflect modern BPs - especially because it's possible to earn BP XP and Embers/vBucks/Traders Tender in other ways besides just Dailies and Weeklies.

As I said earlier, when the new Fortnite BP dropped May 31st, I jumped into the game to Build a base with the new Wasteland themed Tiles. I played for 45 minutes and gained 5 Levels on the BP before I even looked at the what the Tasks were - just from doing the stuff I wanted to do while completely disregarding the BP Tasks.

If I want to complete the BP Task to "Deal 500 Melee Damage", there are many ways for me to do that.
I could bang on some mobs, I could PvP, I could run a Dungeon or a Raid.
I'm going to decide how I go about dealing 500 melee damage during my next few game session(s) based on my moment-to-moment mood and based on the other stuff I'd like to accomplish during my game session(s).
BP Tasks are not intrinsically mutually exclusive with other game session goals.

I sometimes choose not to get all the Dailies done or all the Weeklies done - because there's other stuff I want to do in the game that are more "convenient" than a particular Daily or Weekly.

At the end of my game session, yes, I am satisfied that I did some stuff that I enjoyed doing and I earned some XP and, if I didn't earn Rewards that day, I moved closer towards earning the Rewards I want.
Pretty much the same as Questing or Gathering or Building or Crafting or running Dungeons and Raids. Especially since all of those would be sub-categories of BP Tasks.

Laetitian wrote: »

You can log off satisfied, regardless of how little else you chose to do in the game, or which self-declared spontaneous or long-term projects you abandoned because they became difficult.

WTF??? I never have projects that I've abandoned because they became to difficult - other than back in the day when there were Hell Levels and I would quit EQ/EQ2 or quit WoW until they nerfed the Level to feel more reasonable.
I have no clue how a BP could possibly be related to a "difficult project". I dunno what kind of "long-term projects you mean. Probably because I will already have quit playing the game by then - after reaching Endgame on several characters.

I mean... I guess a long-term project for me might be the Carebear Challenge - reach Max Level Adventurer with 0 Kills.
If I had abandoned that, a BP might incentivise me to work on that character because I would be earning BP XP and Cosmetics in addition to grinding Adventurer XP.
BP Tasks would similarly complement long-term Building projects in MMOs that include Building.

Laetitian wrote: »

That's not true. Anyone designing a game meant to inspire people to make their own choices and care about discovering interesting things to do in the world would steer very clear from ever adding a battlepass after reading the game loop you're describing.

You seem to be talking about Sandbox games.
Ashes is a Themebox; not a Sandbox.
BPs provide an alternative Rewards path to inspire players to make their own choices about what they wish to do during a game session - and offers opportunities to discover other interesting things to do in the game while they are earning BP XP and Rewards.
Again, BPs are not mutually exclusive to finding interesting things to do. It's just an alternative Rewards path.

Laetitian wrote: »

I'm happy you've found your objective in the game. i just don't want other players to get their purpose superimposed on them.

The world does not revolve around just your wants and just your playstyle.

Laetitian wrote: »

How many of the games you're referring to already had dailies or battlepasses before their playerbase jumped ship?

None.

Laetitian wrote: »

How many of those players might have ended up fixing being uninspired or bored, if the people around them hadn't been too busy running dailies to be inspired to come up with their own endeavours in the game?

None. Because it's not a thing for players fix.
I complete lots of Endgame endeavors on 4 or 5 alts before I quit to wait for the expansion - because even 4 or 5 alts can be maxed in 3 or 4 months. And it takes 12-18 months for devs to drop an Expansion.

Laetitian wrote: »

Running externally superimposed tasks is what drains people of the pressure to get creative themselves. To be inspired by other players.
If your default gameplay loop staple is the antithesis of coming up with your own objectives and overcoming difficulty to achieve great things, chances are there won't be as many players having those ambitions and joining together in the endeavour.

That is patently absurd.
In any case, what you are saying here is that you want Ashes to be a Sandbox.
Ashes is a Themebox; not a Sandbox.

Laetitian wrote: »

It all comes back to my first serious response to you in this thread. Adding superimposed task lists intrinsically gets in the way of making developers design a game that's inspirational and fun enough to make players care about the world and what happesn in it, and make them *want* to come up with their own things to do and influence in the game. It's antithetical to having a captivating game that you would then slap a bunch of uninspired externally mandated tasks onto its players. The tasks should already be in the game itself, and available for players to come up with as they play the game.

Just because you claim something does not make it true.
Most things that players do in an MMORPG are a form of super-imposed lists - whether it's grinding a list of mobs or grinding a list of Resources or Crafting a list of items or grinding Dungeons and Raids for BiS Gear.
BPs are just an alternate category of XP and Rewards for doing stuff in the game.
Especially for repeating stuff in the game after completing all the new content.
Most players are not going to want to repeatedly complete content in the game without some form of Rewards that they like. Which is why 75% of MMORPGs quit after they complete the new content - and then they wait several months or years for new content to drop.

The vast majority of BP Tasks are already in the game itself. Similar to Achievements.
BP XP and BP Rewards for doing those activities won't be in the game without a BP.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Organized voice is the best way to do it, and forums is the worse place. Allows you to make wild points and not actually defend anything and move onto another direction. It gets based on general feeling and is very bias on certain types of people / players.

Medium of the message doesn't change the messenger nor the message. It simply changes how the message is presented. I'd be saying the same stuff as I say on the forums, except I'd have a shitton of pauses, hmmms and even weirder wordings because I couldn't think up the best way to explain my point. Text removes all of that and lets me explain everything in as much detail as I can.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Organized voice is the best way to do it, and forums is the worse place. Allows you to make wild points and not actually defend anything and move onto another direction. It gets based on general feeling and is very bias on certain types of people / players.

Medium of the message doesn't change the messenger nor the message. It simply changes how the message is presented. I'd be saying the same stuff as I say on the forums, except I'd have a shitton of pauses, hmmms and even weirder wordings because I couldn't think up the best way to explain my point. Text removes all of that and lets me explain everything in as much detail as I can.

Not really true because you can press people more on voice and get to a solution faster. Text slows things down and allows you to avoid things.

There is a reason when you have a issue its revolved by talking rather than sending messaging back and forth. Even more so if things get more complex. Next step is talking in voice and bringing actual references and such.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not really true because you can press people more on voice and get to a solution faster. Text slows things down and allows you to avoid things.

You can do this in text as well. If anything, it's way easier to do in text because you can simply copypaste the question until you get the response. I've done this multiple times in the past, and even in this thread.

And the responder wouldn't be able to give a different answer to a similar question w/o seeming disingenuous, if the first answer was different. Doing that kind of reference in a voice communication would require constant recording of the discussion and also immediate ability to go back in said recording, which would then take more time than "alt+f"ing a page of text.

The "ability to press people more" simply leads to the stuff I said already - they'll start stuttering and confusing themselves, which will not give you a better answer than repeating the question in written form.

Laetitian

You sound like a treat, Mag, I'd love to have you attempt to bully me into agreeing with you about how Battlepasses cannot ruin my gameplay experience, sadly I have anything else to do.

In seriousness, I'm pretty sure it would just devolve into incoherent accusations of fallacies that don't go anywhere. Are any of us besides Dygz even native speakers? (That's not a veiled insult of anyone's language skills, I just got the impression that you're involved with a lot of Asian games and made an assumption.)

Ludullu

Laetitian wrote: »

Are any of us besides Dygz even native speakers? (That's not a veiled insult of anyone's language skills, I just got the impression that you're involved with a lot of Asian games and made an assumption.)

Does learning the language for 25 out of 31 years count as "native"?

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not really true because you can press people more on voice and get to a solution faster. Text slows things down and allows you to avoid things.

You can do this in text as well. If anything, it's way easier to do in text because you can simply copypaste the question until you get the response. I've done this multiple times in the past, and even in this thread.

And the responder wouldn't be able to give a different answer to a similar question w/o seeming disingenuous, if the first answer was different. Doing that kind of reference in a voice communication would require constant recording of the discussion and also immediate ability to go back in said recording, which would then take more time than "alt+f"ing a page of text.

The "ability to press people more" simply leads to the stuff I said already - they'll start stuttering and confusing themselves, which will not give you a better answer than repeating the question in written form.

Naa voice is a lot easier to do disccusion even more so when its organized properly. There is a reason why issues in message can be resolved easier by just talking to people. Even more so why this current conversation is bloated.

Im not going to derail and have an argument why voice is better than messages on a forum. We can just disagree on this and that is fine with me, yall going to keep going in circle and why message is not working for this.

Mag7spy

Laetitian wrote: »

You sound like a treat, Mag, I'd love to have you attempt to bully me into agreeing with you about how Battlepasses cannot ruin my gameplay experience, sadly I have anything else to do.

In seriousness, I'm pretty sure it would just devolve into incoherent accusations of fallacies that don't go anywhere. Are any of us besides Dygz even native speakers? (That's not a veiled insult of anyone's language skills, I just got the impression that you're involved with a lot of Asian games and made an assumption.)

We are most likely looking at things completely differently. Not saying we should do this in voice chat I was just saying my observation. Some issues would be solved in like 15-30 min over going in circles on a forum.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

yall going to keep going in circle and why message is not working for this.

This is why this thread (and others) is bloated. And if you've seen Ashen Forge (which I know you have), you'd know that Dygz likes to repeat his personal preferences on that show. And he usually restates it in nearly the exact same phrases/words too.

And that is a voice-based medium. The reason why voice discussions end quicker is usually because people are not willing to sit there and go in the same circles we go here on the forums. They just stay with their opinions/misunderstandings and don't resolve shit.

If both Dygz and I weren't as stubborn, at trying to explain our point, as we are - this thread wouldn't be as bloated. But alas, we are.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

yall going to keep going in circle and why message is not working for this.

This is why this thread (and others) is bloated. And if you've seen Ashen Forge (which I know you have), you'd know that Dygz likes to repeat his personal preferences on that show. And he usually restates it in nearly the exact same phrases/words too.

And that is a voice-based medium. The reason why voice discussions end quicker is usually because people are not willing to sit there and go in the same circles we go here on the forums. They just stay with their opinions/misunderstandings and don't resolve shit.

If both Dygz and I weren't as stubborn, at trying to explain our point, as we are - this thread wouldn't be as bloated. But alas, we are.

Pretty much all of this is not what I'm talking about but it doesn't matter.

Dygz

I think it's not complete circles, though.
I get a little bit more new info from a slightly different degree each time - which helps me understand the other playstyle(s) a little bit better.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

The size of post here are going to end up getting details lost, imo its at the point where a voice conversation is the best way to describe things more clearly and get concise answers.

Voice is never the best way to discuss in-depth topics.

Though I mostly think that because it's way easier for me to properly think out a response and then write it out as well as possible, while yapping would never accomplish that. I feel like that preference might be linked to inner monologues and aphantasia-type stuff, but I've never really read up on any research into that topic/idea.

Organized voice is the best way to do it, and forums is the worse place. Allows you to make wild points and not actually defend anything and move onto another direction. It gets based on general feeling and is very bias on certain types of people / players.

Actually, a forum is the best place for something like this - but it requires good faith on both sides.

For example if I point out to Dygz that he has made up numbers that literally don't work to produce the results he said are happening, and he refuses to address that point, that is bad faith.

Forums do not work well in this kind of situation, but then neither does talking to a person.

The reason forums work best in the presence of good faith on both sides is simply because there is an easily accessable record of everything that has been said. You do not need to rely on the person remembering what you said, and what they said, because what was said is still there for both sides to read. This is where the quote function (used properly, as opposed to screenshots) is great, it enables people to instantly move back to that point in the conversation in order to maintain the context by which a specific comment was made.

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