Target player health indicator?

Target player healthbars dont belong in an open world mmo specially in AoC which uses the flagging/PK system to facilitate open world progress and conflict of interest based PvP.

Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area.

This is why AoC went with health indicators. The current ones we saw on the latest stream were not good. They will be further worked on since we are still in development. But what is the aim of them?

I would argue that there is 0 usage for health indicators as well as health bars for target players.
Besides the fact that they are a visual clutter and offer (rightly) unclear target player survivability, a low health indicator makes a target the priority for nuking in organized PvP.

We dont need them. A basic nameplay with a "current target" icon to signify that this player is rdy to be hit by your abilities is all it takes in OWpvp.
You dont need to know more info. It's not a battleground, nor any other instanced PvP like in other mmos.

You either choose to fight an enemy in the open world for gains, or you compromise and move along. If you choose to fight you fight and you either touch the dirt or he does.

No health bars. Health indicators? What for? No health indicators.

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Comments

George_Black

CROW3 wrote: »

Even MO2 has target health bars, so this 'carebear' counterargument is bs.

Yes, very indepth mmo... not at all a survival game.
Full of class, affiliations and skill choices.
More complex gameplay systems tied together than AOC might have.

CROW3

Ha! Ok, George. 👍

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This is only true if you only factor in one aspect of instances, and ignore the rest.

Which I am doing, because I couldn't care less about anything else If something is effectively an instance - to me that's an instance Everything else is simply semantics.

For it to be an instance though, if you have your 500v500 siege going on, I should be able to take my own 500v500 players to start another siege.

If there is only one version of the content available, it is not performing the primary intended purpose of instancing in an MMO (it was introduced to provide players with more content, the player restriction was a useful side effect).

ExiledByrd

GrizzlyRed wrote: »

Green death you drop less than a red death though. So I am not sure what you mean here. If I had 100% life and no mobs attacking me and he killed me without me attacking back he would receive the same loot as if a mob got the last hit. Only by attacking back do I change that modifier, and in that case if I attack back and lose I drop even more than.

Sorry if I am just misunderstanding this but I don't understand how it would be worse to die by a mob than a player?

As I currently understand it.

Red(Corrupted) death drops 4x more than green(non-combatant), but green drops 2x more than purple(combatant). If I attack you I'll go purple and you don't go purple unless you attack back. If I can use mobs to kill people without them being able to attack me, not only will I not go red but they will die green. There is also no penalty unless I kill them. This might encourage people to go around "tagging" people fighting monsters.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

it was introduced to provide players with more content, the player restriction was a useful side effect.

This is just another difference in our experiences. In L2 instances were introduced to let the pve be more complex. And then later on when, I assume, enough people didn't complain about those instances, NCsoft introduced all the types of instances that you're talking about, where every fucking solo player could have their own little piece of content.

Either way. Like I've said multiple times, I'm wrong - cool, I couldn't care less. If no one can interrupt my activity - I'm in a damn instance.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

it was introduced to provide players with more content, the player restriction was a useful side effect.

This is just another difference in our experiences. In L2 instances were introduced to let the pve be more complex. And then later on when, I assume, enough people didn't complain about those instances, NCsoft introduced all the types of instances that you're talking about, where every fucking solo player could have their own little piece of content.

Either way. Like I've said multiple times, I'm wrong - cool, I couldn't care less. If no one can interrupt my activity - I'm in a damn instance.

If its on twitch, confirmed game is open world now.

Dygz

Diamaht wrote: »

Wiki:
"Castle seiges occur in the open world, but may become instanced based on testing."

We should politic for open world for sure.

Node seiges, it's not clear. Could go either way based on what was said.

Node and Guild Wars are open world. We just saw that.

No need to politic for Open World.
It's not a matter of who wants what. Steven wants Castle Sieges to be Open World.
There would have to be programming obstacles that prevent Castle Sieges from being Open World.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

it was introduced to provide players with more content, the player restriction was a useful side effect.

This is just another difference in our experiences.

It could be, but I am not talking about "my experiences". You know I rarely talk about things from just one subjective perspective.

I am talking about why instancing in MMORPG's was first imagined and developed full stop, as opposed to how it was used in a given game.

Arya_Yeshe

ExiledByrd wrote: »

If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).

No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong

If you want to kill then just kill.

However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.

That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games

CROW3

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games

Uh huh. 🤦‍♂️

Noaani

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

ExiledByrd wrote: »

If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).

No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong

If you want to kill then just kill.

However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes.

No, it doesn't reduce anything if you know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong

If you want to kill then just kill.

However, I am not against a potion that let's you hide your health bars for a few minutes.

Percimes

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

ExiledByrd wrote: »

If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).

No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong

If you want to kill then just kill.

However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.

That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games

This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games.

I'm not pushing or pulling in any direction, just presenting another aspect of the issue. Is it fairer if no one knows anyone's exact health? If you know your own, it's easier to factor in that variable in your decision making, whether your the attacker or the defender: you know what state your character's health is.

ExiledByrd

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

ExiledByrd wrote: »

If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).

No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong

If you want to kill then just kill.

However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.

That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games

I am okay with anything, health bars or no health bars. But I do think that if they add health bars, they need to change the flagging system. Otherwise I am just going to game the system and people will complain about it here on launch.

Texas

It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.

Noaani

Texas wrote: »

It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.

What is wrong with the flagging system?

GrizzlyRed

Percimes wrote: »

This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games.

Reading this just made me think. Wouldn't it be cool if they did no health bars but characters showed damage? Gear tatters, blood stains show and so forth.

But in an mmo your health moves so often, particularly in a pve boss encounter that your look would be changing like a strobe light.

ExiledByrd

Noaani wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.

What is wrong with the flagging system?

The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me.

It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back. Also, if they get killed by mobs, it will not give corruption. So my current strategy would to go around and reduce green players health by as much as possible before they flag. If they attack back, then kill them. If they don't, try to have a mob kill them and basically just be annoying. Either way the corruption system has little to do with it.

Greens are supposed to be encouraged to fight back because they lose less stuff if they do. But in order to do that they need to target and attack the purple attacking them, while also dealing with whatever they were doing before. They will definitely be starting on the back foot.

Meanwhile there is an entire system (Bounty Hunters) that rely on people becoming corrupted. But the corruption system is there to prevent griefing. As I understand it, they want some griefing but not to much.

The simplest fix I see is just to allow people to flag to combatant as they want. Maybe even give them a buff(gathering, dps, etc) to encourage it. And then give people corruption just for attacking greens. This will stop most gaming of the corruption system, still allow murder hobos to kill greens for dopamine, increase the number of targets for Bounty Hunters. Plus I wont have to tag every stranger to see if they want to throw down.

Ludullu

ExiledByrd wrote: »

If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back.

If you want pvp, you have a wide variety of pvp activities that don't include attacking greens. Especially if you're in a guild.

ExiledByrd wrote: »

Also, if they get killed by mobs, it will not give corruption. So my current strategy would to go around and reduce green players health by as much as possible before they flag. If they attack back, then kill them. If they don't, try to have a mob kill them and basically just be annoying. Either way the corruption system has little to do with it.

And this is exactly one of the reasons why some of us want invisible hp. Because attacking greens with this strat in mind would be way more dangerous for the attacker, cause you'll never know what hp your victim is at.

ExiledByrd wrote: »

Greens are supposed to be encouraged to fight back because they lose less stuff if they do. But in order to do that they need to target and attack the purple attacking them, while also dealing with whatever they were doing before. They will definitely be starting on the back foot.

This is why I hope Intrepid design a good set of ability tools for managing mobs in pvp situations, and the pvx encounter will be all about proper use of those tools. So far we haven't seen any of that, sadly.

ExiledByrd wrote: »

Meanwhile there is an entire system (Bounty Hunters) that rely on people becoming corrupted. But the corruption system is there to prevent griefing. As I understand it, they want some griefing but not to much.

Yes, so far this is one of the weakest presented systems in the game. And definitely one of the most contradictory as well. I personally hope they expand on it, but that would only happen later on in A2, if at all.

ExiledByrd wrote: »

The simplest fix I see is just to allow people to flag to combatant as they want. Maybe even give them a buff(gathering, dps, etc) to encourage it. And then give people corruption just for attacking greens. This will stop most gaming of the corruption system, still allow murder hobos to kill greens for dopamine, increase the number of targets for Bounty Hunters. Plus I wont have to tag every stranger to see if they want to throw down.

This would require lessening of the corruption penalties, and also a whole rebalancing of whatever plans they currently have for economic design, cause if pvp on-ers have boosted effects while touching greens immediately makes you a free target for anyone around (with decreased stats) - that drastically changed any interaction between players and any plans those players have for their gameplay.

Toggleable pvp is usually very shit.

Mag7spy

I'm confused how people still think corruption is the main pvp, even more so after seeing the node wars stream lol.

Then you have people saying its not perfect so its flawed as a argument lmao. You can apply this to anything its not perfect so system is flawed. Nothing is going to be perfect in a game, it just needs to serve its purpose well enough to entice something or reduce something enough.

Heartbeat

Removing health bars for what? The only reason you gave was that you could be fed to mobs, this isn't BDO and im sure Steven has said before that the game will be able to detect whether you died a PvE death or PvP death based on when a player attacked you or how much damage they did relative to the mob that was hitting you.

If you don't like the visual clutter im sure there will be a setting to turn them off like plenty of other games have.

Indicators are one thing of whether you want them turned on client-side in settings or not and personalized but I'd argue that health bars are essential information especially if we're going to have finishers/executes or other abilities that do dmg based on health whether its current or missing.

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