Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I wouldn't say he has a leg up at all, even more so in this disccusion saying a battlepass is a loot box. Doing your usual "reading posts as you want them, rather than how they are". I didn't say battlepass are lootboxes. I said they are a replacement for them (Epic was forced to remove the aspect of loot boxes that made them so profitable, and so developed battlepass for Fortnite). I also said that in the future there will be random aspects to Fortnites battlepass, akin to lootboxes. However, I specifically did not say that battlepass is a loot box. You may actually be a fairly intelligent poster about gaming in general - but until you learn to properly read and understand people's posts, you will do nothing other than continue to come across as the exact opposite of that. I understood it perfectly well and you are still going on about battlepasses as loot boxes See, you are the reason the forums are as they are. You know what you are saying is bullshit. People wanting to point out that what you are saying is bullshit are then required to spend an inordinate amount of time doing so, and others on the forums simply skipo over posts. You really are single handedly ruining the forums - and I am saying this knowing full well that @Vaknar may well ban me. Quite frankly, if you acting the way you are on these forums is what we all have to deal with, I don't care if I get banned. Grow the fuck up.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I wouldn't say he has a leg up at all, even more so in this disccusion saying a battlepass is a loot box. Doing your usual "reading posts as you want them, rather than how they are". I didn't say battlepass are lootboxes. I said they are a replacement for them (Epic was forced to remove the aspect of loot boxes that made them so profitable, and so developed battlepass for Fortnite). I also said that in the future there will be random aspects to Fortnites battlepass, akin to lootboxes. However, I specifically did not say that battlepass is a loot box. You may actually be a fairly intelligent poster about gaming in general - but until you learn to properly read and understand people's posts, you will do nothing other than continue to come across as the exact opposite of that. I understood it perfectly well and you are still going on about battlepasses as loot boxes
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I wouldn't say he has a leg up at all, even more so in this disccusion saying a battlepass is a loot box. Doing your usual "reading posts as you want them, rather than how they are". I didn't say battlepass are lootboxes. I said they are a replacement for them (Epic was forced to remove the aspect of loot boxes that made them so profitable, and so developed battlepass for Fortnite). I also said that in the future there will be random aspects to Fortnites battlepass, akin to lootboxes. However, I specifically did not say that battlepass is a loot box. You may actually be a fairly intelligent poster about gaming in general - but until you learn to properly read and understand people's posts, you will do nothing other than continue to come across as the exact opposite of that.
Mag7spy wrote: » I wouldn't say he has a leg up at all, even more so in this disccusion saying a battlepass is a loot box.
Dygz wrote: » Actually, Mr. Pot...
Mag7spy wrote: » Issue is actually you, you want people to agree with your takes on good faith so it can't be pointed out to be wrong. And you start to twist disccusion by trying to inject loot boxes in it, impossible to even take you seriously when you get to this point .
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue is actually you, you want people to agree with your takes on good faith so it can't be pointed out to be wrong. And you start to twist disccusion by trying to inject loot boxes in it, impossible to even take you seriously when you get to this point . Rather than attempting to engage you in a pointless debate, I am going to simply point out that you mentioned them twice in this thread before I mentioned them once. Don't come along and accuse me of injecting something in to this discussion that you had already started talking about. If you thought that me bring loot boxes in to this discussion made it impossible to take me seriously, what does it mean now that you know you mentioned them twice in this thread before I did? How can you take yourself seriously at this point? If it was you that did something that you just claimed made you unable to take someone else seriously, where does that leave you? Some self reflection is indeed warranted...
Mag7spy wrote: » When someone asking how i feel about loot boxes, doesn't mean you derail a thread and start talking about the future is they will be doing loot boxes so BP are bad because you are making things up saying they will be loot boxes now.
Mag7spy wrote: » You need to stop trying to win arguments in your own mind and understanding people.
You are so desperate to try to win conversations on a forum in your mind you will start to make things up to try to say you are right.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » When someone asking how i feel about loot boxes, doesn't mean you derail a thread and start talking about the future is they will be doing loot boxes so BP are bad because you are making things up saying they will be loot boxes now. I mentioned that battlepass was concieved for Fortnite as a replacement for loot boxes (an objective fact, and again after you had mentioned it twice), in discussion with someone that wasn't even you - and you then ran with it as the sole point of a multi-paragraph post. It was that post of yours that turned it from being a comment on the side of the discussion to being something that was the main point of a number of posts. Again, that whole reflection thing. Mag7spy wrote: » You need to stop trying to win arguments in your own mind and understanding people. I'm less concerned with winning arguments than I am concerned with people that want to participate in them arguing in a logical and decent manner. I've happily concieded a number of points in discussion with other posters (NiKr comes to mind as the most frequent recently), and agreed to disagree with a number of other posters (Depraved - while he are actually fairly good debators in some topics, this doesn't hold true for all topics, when he cares about a topic though, he always brings up very good points). It's just you that doesn't see this You turn in to what you have been in this thread (making blatantly false claims about what others have said, for example) long before the discussion has been exhausted. You seem to think that people should flip their opinion based on almost any comment at all, rather than thinking those people should have an actual in depth discussion on the matter, and consider it from many points of view before abandoning their position. Further, you think that people whom are doing exactly this are instead trying to "win the argument" when all they are doing is exploring the opposing view in order to decide if it is a better opinion to hold or not. From my view, "winning" an argument isn't about being right, you win an argument when there is a conclusion - either people agree that they have different positions on it, or when either party agrees that the opposing opinion is a better opinion to have and so switches to that. That is a debate that has a winner - not one where people bring in bullshit in order to "be right" which is what many consider to be the "win condition" of a discussion. This is why you never convince people of anything - you can't stay focused in the debate long enough. If you have a truely good point, and are truely correct, let people debate against it all they want. Point out where the faults in their argument are and give them time to realize that they are wrong. If that person is debating in good faith, they will realize. If they are not debating in good faith, well, you need a mirror, because that is you when I am simply arguing my point and showing you the issues with your perspective. Rather than debating it because you think you are correct, you decend in to childish behavior - and you know I am not the only person on these forums that has called you out for it (though I am the only one calling it shildish behavior, I believe). You are so desperate to try to win conversations on a forum in your mind you will start to make things up to try to say you are right. I have never posted anything on these forums that I have made up, other than in discussions where I am talking specifically about ideas. If I talk figures, it is because I have those figures. You may not, but that is your problem, not mine. Just so you are aware, this is a document containing a number of figures I have stated on these forums recently. There are many ways to get actual figures on matters pertaining to MMORPG's, and documents like this is but one such way (earnings calls are another great method). I'm showing you this more in the hopes that you will realize that there is real data out there that you can find, rather than making things up in an attempt to support your argument - something I know Dygz is well past being capable of doing. This is a 'benefit of the doubt' type thing. - I'm hoping you take this on board. When I say things like "Epic are developing battlepass to replace loot boxes", that is something else I have solid reasoning for as well. Again, you may not have that information, but that is your problem, not mine. Epics HR listings are fairly public, you can see what kinds of skills they are looking for. if they are looking for people with experience in gambling, and if they put those people with that experience to work on battlepass rather than loot boxes, it isn't all that hard to draw conclusions that are fairly accurate in regards to where they want to take battlepass.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » When someone asking how i feel about loot boxes, doesn't mean you derail a thread and start talking about the future is they will be doing loot boxes so BP are bad because you are making things up saying they will be loot boxes now. I mentioned that battlepass was concieved for Fortnite as a replacement for loot boxes (an objective fact, and again after you had mentioned it twice), in discussion with someone that wasn't even you - and you then ran with it as the sole point of a multi-paragraph post. It was that post of yours that turned it from being a comment on the side of the discussion to being something that was the main point of a number of posts. Again, that whole reflection thing. Mag7spy wrote: » You need to stop trying to win arguments in your own mind and understanding people. I'm less concerned with winning arguments than I am concerned with people that want to participate in them arguing in a logical and decent manner. I've happily concieded a number of points in discussion with other posters (NiKr comes to mind as the most frequent recently), and agreed to disagree with a number of other posters (Depraved - while he are actually fairly good debators in some topics, this doesn't hold true for all topics, when he cares about a topic though, he always brings up very good points). It's just you that doesn't see this You turn in to what you have been in this thread (making blatantly false claims about what others have said, for example) long before the discussion has been exhausted. You seem to think that people should flip their opinion based on almost any comment at all, rather than thinking those people should have an actual in depth discussion on the matter, and consider it from many points of view before abandoning their position. Further, you think that people whom are doing exactly this are instead trying to "win the argument" when all they are doing is exploring the opposing view in order to decide if it is a better opinion to hold or not. From my view, "winning" an argument isn't about being right, you win an argument when there is a conclusion - either people agree that they have different positions on it, or when either party agrees that the opposing opinion is a better opinion to have and so switches to that. That is a debate that has a winner - not one where people bring in bullshit in order to "be right" which is what many consider to be the "win condition" of a discussion. This is why you never convince people of anything - you can't stay focused in the debate long enough. If you have a truely good point, and are truely correct, let people debate against it all they want. Point out where the faults in their argument are and give them time to realize that they are wrong. If that person is debating in good faith, they will realize. If they are not debating in good faith, well, you need a mirror, because that is you when I am simply arguing my point and showing you the issues with your perspective. Rather than debating it because you think you are correct, you decend in to childish behavior - and you know I am not the only person on these forums that has called you out for it (though I am the only one calling it shildish behavior, I believe). You are so desperate to try to win conversations on a forum in your mind you will start to make things up to try to say you are right. I have never posted anything on these forums that I have made up, other than in discussions where I am talking specifically about ideas. If I talk figures, it is because I have those figures. You may not, but that is your problem, not mine. Just so you are aware, this is a document containing a number of figures I have stated on these forums recently. There are many ways to get actual figures on matters pertaining to MMORPG's, and documents like this is but one such way (earnings calls are another great method). I'm showing you this more in the hopes that you will realize that there is real data out there that you can find, rather than making things up in an attempt to support your argument - something I know Dygz is well past being capable of doing. This is a 'benefit of the doubt' type thing. - I'm hoping you take this on board. When I say things like "Epic are developing battlepass to replace loot boxes", that is something else I have solid reasoning for as well. Again, you may not have that information, but that is your problem, not mine. Epics HR listings are fairly public, you can see what kinds of skills they are looking for. if they are looking for people with experience in gambling, and if they put those people with that experience to work on battlepass rather than loot boxes, it isn't all that hard to draw conclusions that are fairly accurate in regards to where they want to take battlepass. As far as I'm concerned that loot box question was directed at me which you than quoted me and tried to spiral a reasoning against BP and tying it to loot box or more so trying to use fear in the future of what it turns into. Which isn't even relevant at all to any current conversation. You are just being disingenuous and ruining the conversation trying to use that as your point. Naa you are in this to win and you are looking for people with the same view point as you. You aren't looking to understand another view point you can tell by how you engage in discussion. Idk why you are talking about you are conceding points when both you and Nikr are on the same side. Just shows even more so you are looking for a echo chamber to reinforce your points. And the reason why made up points get brought up, with you trying to use loot boxes as part of the staple in your argument (if you were not you would have given up on pushing that point and said it wasn't strong or just say you were wrong). Me saying you are making up points isn't isolated to it not existing, but you trying to make false comparisons, or use some sort of fear mongering as they both are not relevant and are made up. What is the game doing, what is the norm of the current landscape of monetization, how is it effecting things in general and content. Staying in reality is pretty important else you are just making a disccusion a fantasy argument on the level of who would win in an anime character fight.
Mag7spy wrote: » As far as I'm concerned that loot box question was directed at me
Mag7spy wrote: » you start to twist disccusion by trying to inject loot boxes in it, impossible to even take you seriously when you get to this point.
you trying to make false comparisons
Mag7spy wrote: » I have a strong feeling this could be picked apart IE battleside 2 carrying most of their numbers but them trying to not make that clear. Even if some older games are dead.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » As far as I'm concerned that loot box question was directed at me If you are talking about the first time I mentioned them in this thread, you are talking about a post in which I quoted NiKr, and again was after you had bought them up in two different posts. Sure, I did direct a point in relation to loot boxes towards you, but that was well after you had started talking about them, and after I had mentioned them to someone else. At that point, you have no grounds at all for claiming - and I am obviously directly quoting you here; Mag7spy wrote: » you start to twist disccusion by trying to inject loot boxes in it, impossible to even take you seriously when you get to this point. Again, you bought these up before I did. You can not complain that someone else mentions them to you when you are the one that bought them up. This is a problem you exhibt a lot in discussions. You seem to just want to ignore the actual history of the discussion. you trying to make false comparisons You need to learn the difference between a false comparison and an analogy. Analogies are used to get a person to understand an unfamiliar concept - but only a specific aspect of that concept. As soon as you take an analogy to a second step, the analogy itself is already broken (even though that analogy can often be taken to that second degree to illustrate a counter-point). The reason I believe this is something you need to learn is because I use analogies on occasion, but I rarely use actual comparisons. If you are getting the two confused, or do not understand the difference between the two, that is an actual problem that you need to address. Mag7spy wrote: » I have a strong feeling this could be picked apart IE battleside 2 carrying most of their numbers but them trying to not make that clear. Even if some older games are dead. I assume you mean Planetside 2. Feel free to TLDR to the last paragraph if you like, but I will continue. And no, Planetside 2 is not holding Daybreak up. Some of the numbers in that document are illegal to mis-represent. EBITDA is one such figure (even though it isn't a GAAP reconized metric, you still can't misreport it), and is essentially an alternate method for determining net profit. Planetside 2 makes up only 6% of EBITDA. EQ makes up 30% - thus if any one game were able to be said to be carrying the company, it would be that game. DCUO is the second, LOTRO is third, and EQ2 is fourth, DDO is fifth, and Planetside 2 is last. If you contrast that to the bookings per game graph (basically, the revenue of each product), you can make some interesting comparisons. If you take the percentage of a games revenue, and compare it to the percentage of each games EBITDA, you can get an idea of how much development time each game takes to generate that revenue (comparible only to the other games in that document). DCUO is taking in 38% of revenue, yet is only responsible for 28% of EBITDA, thus it is taking up more developer time to maintain that game at that state than other games are. However, if you look closer at other figures, you see some other aspects come to light. DCUO has almost 420k monthly active users, but less than 10% of those players are subscribed to the game. Part of the reason DCUO has the largest number of active users is because it is the game that is available on the most platforms (PC, PS4, Xbox, Switch). However, with a comparatively low percent of subscribed users, and witha middle-of-the-road per user revenue, it is understanable tht DCUO may well have costs that are incurred that are higher per paying user that the other games in the stable simply don't have, thus a lower ratio of bookings per game in relation to EBITDA is understandable. If we then take that close a look at Planetside 2, we see a very different picture. The game is available on two platforms (PC and PS4). It also has almost 200k average monthly users. However, it's subscribed player count is almost as low as DCUO's, with only 25k subscribed (second lowest count in the company). Planetside 2 also has the lowest per paying user monthly revenue, at only $35.70 per. It also has the lowest player retention of all games in the company, with only 65% of it's members having been subscribed for 3 years or more. While Planetside 2 does have the highest percentage of it's players being new to the game (though not the highest number outright), it also has the lowest ratio of converting those new users in to long term users, at only 10%. All of this combined is why Planetside 2 has the worst ratio of bookings to EBIDTA of the six games in that document. It is making 6% of EBIDTA (or profit), yet it is taking in 11% of revenue - meaning less of it's revenue is profit in relation to other games. Then if we look at EQ2 (since I talk about it often). The game has a lower player count than either of the two above, but it has easily the second highest ratio of subscribed users in the entire company at 72.4%. It has the second highest average spend per paying monthly user at $52.30 (DDO having an average monthly spend of $65.20 is actually crazy). It has the highest long term player retention of any game listed, with 80.5% of all paying users being subscribed for 3 years or more. It has the highest rate of new user conversion (turning people new to the game in to paying customers) at 42%. This all adds up to an incredibly healthy, profitable, but still small, MMORPG. It is worth pointing out that if you combine EQ2 and Planetside 2, you have a total revenue for Daybreak of 20%, and a total EBIDTA of 19% for the company - meaning the argument could be made that EQ2 is proping Planetside 2 up, as when combined they roughly make equal percentages of revenue and profit. Everything from when I said you can TLDR to this point is just to point out to you the wealth of actual data available to those looking for it - there is so much you can learn and understand - and know - on things like this. The claim that I bring in false facts is just outright incorrect - I do, however, bring in facts that you were unaware of, and so next time there is a fact I mention that you were not aware of, consider it to be just another of these facts that are new to you.
Mag7spy wrote: » If it was before around page 20 im not looking through every page to see which one it is not that it matters.
you start to twist disccusion by trying to inject loot boxes in it, impossible to even take you seriously when you get to this point.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If it was before around page 20 im not looking through every page to see which one it is not that it matters. I'm at the point where i just can't even... Look at that picture that you posted (instead of using the forums quote function to that people can easily navigate to the post). You state that people are moving from loot boxes to battlepass. Saying battle pass is replacing loot boxes is the same thing as saying people are moving from loot boxes to battle pass. You say a thing, and then when I say it after you have said it you state that you start to twist disccusion by trying to inject loot boxes in it, impossible to even take you seriously when you get to this point. Again, you are literally saying something, I am saying the same thing, and you are stating that I am trying to twist the discussion. This is clearly a result of you not even paying attention to what you are saying. It is you blurting out your opinion on things without even putting time in to consider what your opinion should be. You are speaking (or typing) before thinking - and the rest of us are suffering for it.
Mag7spy wrote: » You must be on something as you are the one that started the whole conversation about battle passes are going to become loot boxes
Stop trying to win conversations
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You must be on something as you are the one that started the whole conversation about battle passes are going to become loot boxes Feel free to find a quote for where I said that. Take note - you need to find where I specifically said "battlepass are going to become loot boxes", as opposed to something that you mistakenly thought to mean that. You will post something about how you aren't even going to try to do it, because of some reason (despite the fact that you have already gone back through this thread to for some reason screenshot something you thought supported your point). The reality is, you won't post me saying that, because I didn't say it. The other thing you may do instead of saying you won't find that post is attempt one of your childish diversions. If you think someone said a thing, and then when asked for proof of where they said it you specifically do not provide that proof, you need to stop saying they said that thing. It's called "just not being a dick". Stop trying to win conversations I'm not trying to win a conversation, I am trying to have a conversation. You are making this difficult in two ways - the first is in thinking there is a winner in a conversation, the second is by making up your own version of what has been said.
Mag7spy wrote: » Why are you coming on a forum to straight up lie?
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Why are you coming on a forum to straight up lie? You claimed that I said "battlepasses are going to become loot boxes", and as proof of me saying that you posted me saying that they are going to randomize rewards for battlepass. Great work, champ!
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Why are you coming on a forum to straight up lie? You claimed that I said "battlepasses are going to become loot boxes", and as proof of me saying that you posted me saying that they are going to randomize rewards for battlepass. Great work, champ! This is why i think arguing this with you is a joke and why you are here to win a conversation not have one. I hoped I helped you open your eyes a little bit at the very least. Its never too late to admit you were wrong or take it back and show some self reflection.
Dygz wrote: » Yeah... because the implication is that Epic will add randomization to BPs in order to continue to bypass the gambling restrictions. (Which can't really be a thing.) That implication is too absurd to be arguing about in the first place. Sure. BPs are a replacement for lootboxes. There is currently no downside to that. And Noanni is literally just making shit up to try to find some reason why BPs must inherently be bad. "They might not be bad now, but they will have to be in the future somehow."
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Why are you coming on a forum to straight up lie? You claimed that I said "battlepasses are going to become loot boxes", and as proof of me saying that you posted me saying that they are going to randomize rewards for battlepass. Great work, champ! This is why i think arguing this with you is a joke and why you are here to win a conversation not have one. I hoped I helped you open your eyes a little bit at the very least. Its never too late to admit you were wrong or take it back and show some self reflection. Keep in mind - you are the one that has been banging on about me saying something I didn't say. I've been trying to tell you that I didn't say that thing, and when you finally decided that you had to show where I posted it in order to save face, you put up a post where I specifically wasn't saying the thing you had been claiming I said. You can sit there are claim arguing with me is a joke, but all I have been doing for the last while is trying to get you to drop the misconception you had about what I said.
