NiKr wrote: » Toggleable pvp is usually very shit.
ExiledByrd wrote: » I agree, but I think that is mostly because toggleable pvp is usually off vs on. A green vs purple toggle may work better?
Heartbeat wrote: » Removing health bars for what? The only reason you gave was that you could be fed to mobs, this isn't BDO and im sure Steven has said before that the game will be able to detect whether you died a PvE death or PvP death based on when a player attacked you or how much damage they did relative to the mob that was hitting you.
ExiledByrd wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Texas wrote: » It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed. What is wrong with the flagging system? The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me. It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back.
Noaani wrote: » Texas wrote: » It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed. What is wrong with the flagging system?
Texas wrote: » It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.
ExiledByrd wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Texas wrote: » It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed. What is wrong with the flagging system? The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me. It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back. Also, if they get killed by mobs, it will not give corruption. So my current strategy would to go around and reduce green players health by as much as possible before they flag. If they attack back, then kill them. If they don't, try to have a mob kill them and basically just be annoying. Either way the corruption system has little to do with it. Greens are supposed to be encouraged to fight back because they lose less stuff if they do. But in order to do that they need to target and attack the purple attacking them, while also dealing with whatever they were doing before. They will definitely be starting on the back foot. Meanwhile there is an entire system (Bounty Hunters) that rely on people becoming corrupted. But the corruption system is there to prevent griefing. As I understand it, they want some griefing but not to much. The simplest fix I see is just to allow people to flag to combatant as they want. Maybe even give them a buff(gathering, dps, etc) to encourage it. And then give people corruption just for attacking greens. This will stop most gaming of the corruption system, still allow murder hobos to kill greens for dopamine, increase the number of targets for Bounty Hunters. Plus I wont have to tag every stranger to see if they want to throw down.
Percimes wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » ExiledByrd wrote: » If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties). No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong If you want to kill then just kill. However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying. That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games. I'm not pushing or pulling in any direction, just presenting another aspect of the issue. Is it fairer if no one knows anyone's exact health? If you know your own, it's easier to factor in that variable in your decision making, whether your the attacker or the defender: you know what state your character's health is.
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » ExiledByrd wrote: » If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties). No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong If you want to kill then just kill. However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying. That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games
ExiledByrd wrote: » If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » how many games will be launched following the same game design from the 90s?
Noaani wrote: » ExiledByrd wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Texas wrote: » It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed. What is wrong with the flagging system? The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me. It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back. You aren't supposed to be going around Verra wanting some open world PvP. Open world PvP is supposed to only happen when there is something specific to fight over. This may be a boss encounter, it may be resources on the map, or it may be something in that players inventory - but there should always be something. Once you realize this, you will realize that it is very well designed. Even your comment about players being killed by mobs is a non-issue. If players are fighting mobs, you have no reason to attack them at all unless the mob they are attacking is the object of conflict - but even then you are probably better served attacking the mob anyway. The corruption system has some minor tweaks needed to it, but the core system is not flawed - what is flawed is the belief that some players hold as to how that system is supposed to be used.
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Percimes wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » ExiledByrd wrote: » If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties). No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong If you want to kill then just kill. However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying. That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games. I'm not pushing or pulling in any direction, just presenting another aspect of the issue. Is it fairer if no one knows anyone's exact health? If you know your own, it's easier to factor in that variable in your decision making, whether your the attacker or the defender: you know what state your character's health is. It depends on how the game presents healing and how the buffs and healing spells work, nowadays they only work well with health bars At least the others should have their health bars hidden and the character should give visual clues of its health vomiting blood: health 1/4 or less choking/hands shaking: poisoned nose bleeding: hurt nose and mouth bleeding: 3/4 health ears bleeding: 1/2 health panting: 1/2 health/low stamina if there's stamina arching back: 1/4 health or less etc etc, so many possibilties People thought of doom style health bar: Original: given today's advanced animation capabilities and streamlined development processes, why are health bars still necessary? It seems absurd! visual and auditory cues like body language and blood could enhance the game's appeal and drama tremendously, making it more appealing
ExiledByrd wrote: » Noaani wrote: » ExiledByrd wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Texas wrote: » It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed. What is wrong with the flagging system? The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me. It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back. You aren't supposed to be going around Verra wanting some open world PvP. Open world PvP is supposed to only happen when there is something specific to fight over. This may be a boss encounter, it may be resources on the map, or it may be something in that players inventory - but there should always be something. Once you realize this, you will realize that it is very well designed. Even your comment about players being killed by mobs is a non-issue. If players are fighting mobs, you have no reason to attack them at all unless the mob they are attacking is the object of conflict - but even then you are probably better served attacking the mob anyway. The corruption system has some minor tweaks needed to it, but the core system is not flawed - what is flawed is the belief that some players hold as to how that system is supposed to be used. Gatherers drop materials, people moving stuff from one point to another drop materials. If i spend 5 minutes killing someone and get 10 minutes worth of material farming, it might be worth doing. Especially if I can do it when they are fighting a mob and my odds of winning go up and rewards go up. I wont know what the player has until I kill them though. I am not saying I will definitely do this, but I know people who will. Heck, go over to the guild recruitment page and you will see several guilds who even seem to encourage it. I would like the system that is designed to discourage it to do a good job discouraging it though.
ExiledByrd wrote: » Gatherers drop materials, people moving stuff from one point to another drop materials. If i spend 5 minutes killing someone and get 10 minutes worth of material farming, it might be worth doing. Especially if I can do it when they are fighting a mob and my odds of winning go up and rewards go up. I wont know what the player has until I kill them though.
Depraved wrote: » corruption might not be worth the mats you are getting. also, you dont get all the materials, you only get a portion. if they spend 5 minutes gathering, you will only get 1-2 minute of materials. you are also not considering that they might kill you instead or that they simply wont be carrying any mats and you went red or made an enemy for nothing. attacking someone is a risk that may or may not be rewarding. there isn't any need for more discouragement. why is the guy mining rocks more special and needs to be protected at all cost over the guy who wants to pvp in an open world PVP game. makes no sense.
Noaani wrote: » ExiledByrd wrote: » Gatherers drop materials, people moving stuff from one point to another drop materials. If i spend 5 minutes killing someone and get 10 minutes worth of material farming, it might be worth doing. Especially if I can do it when they are fighting a mob and my odds of winning go up and rewards go up. I wont know what the player has until I kill them though. I think you are missing the point. You aren't supposed to just go around killing people to see what they have on them. If you kill someone that spent the last 30 minutes harvesting ore, there is a damn good chance that you wouldn't even be able to carry that ore anywhere anyway. Look up inventory on the wiki for more information. If you are killing someone for what they have on them, you need two things to be true. First, you need to have a reason for thinking they have something, and second, you need to be wanting that specific thing.
ExiledByrd wrote: » Why? I may not be able to hold all of the items, but my bags will most likely be empty before I start and there are bags that can hold any type of material. If they fight back, there are 0 system consequences to attacking them. With a < 30 sec TTK, it doesn't take much time to kill someone I run across. If there are health bars I can stop attacking before they die if they don't attack back. The current system rewards attacking first heavily.
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Imagine a video game character is stabbed in the guts, and has very large open wounds and bleeding heavily , but its animation is the same heroic standing pose looking like a medieval Captain America Give me a break, how much longer will we tolerate this?
Noaani wrote: » ExiledByrd wrote: » Why? I may not be able to hold all of the items, but my bags will most likely be empty before I start and there are bags that can hold any type of material. If they fight back, there are 0 system consequences to attacking them. With a < 30 sec TTK, it doesn't take much time to kill someone I run across. If there are health bars I can stop attacking before they die if they don't attack back. The current system rewards attacking first heavily. If your plan is to stop attacking players if they don't fight back, it won't take long before those players realize the best way to defend their resources is to not fight back. If you plan on attacking people often to get materials, you will have to gain corruption. If you don't, you become the joke of a player that no one is concerned about. Like a bug that the best defense is to just ignore it. So, that plan you have - it isn't going to work. At least not how you think it will.
ExiledByrd wrote: » Noaani wrote: » ExiledByrd wrote: » Why? I may not be able to hold all of the items, but my bags will most likely be empty before I start and there are bags that can hold any type of material. If they fight back, there are 0 system consequences to attacking them. With a < 30 sec TTK, it doesn't take much time to kill someone I run across. If there are health bars I can stop attacking before they die if they don't attack back. The current system rewards attacking first heavily. If your plan is to stop attacking players if they don't fight back, it won't take long before those players realize the best way to defend their resources is to not fight back. If you plan on attacking people often to get materials, you will have to gain corruption. If you don't, you become the joke of a player that no one is concerned about. Like a bug that the best defense is to just ignore it. So, that plan you have - it isn't going to work. At least not how you think it will. I hope so. And if no one else is going corrupted I think you are right. We'll need to see exactly how the WPvP ends up working out, but as it is now I am not so sure. Side note: I wonder if I pvp in a group, could we stack all the corruption on one player by not partying. They'll be the one doing the killing blow. Risk accidently killing someone the more people attacking of course, but a skilled group of 3-4 could probably do it. Another side note: I don't plan on griefing players. It's more of a mental exercise on if I could abuse the current system to do so.
