Time To Fill Bags?

What kind of range should we be looking at for Time to Fill Bags?

I understand that there will be different types of crafted bags, and it also depends on what you are picking up. But if you are going on a gathering run, how long should it take to fill your bags? Maybe a minimum range for a level <10 all the way to max range for level 50 decked out with best bags.

Keep in mind that this rate will be directly related to how loaded you want to fill a caravan up, because each caravan will represent "X" amount of gathering hours, and "Y" amount of runs". As "Y" gets smaller, caravans become less valuable than running the mats by foot.

Example:

It takes 1 hour to fill up your bags on the wood in your area. You get a call to bring 10 hours of wood to another node, 15m run by mount. You can run the caravan with 10 hours of loot (30m round trip), or you can just run by mount 10 times (5hr round trip).

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Comments

Ludullu

I personally think ~1h average should be fine. That would mean 100h per caravan, if it's full. And character progression can go hand in hand, so at lvl10 you might have a low tier singular bag but also low tier gathering skills, while at max lvl you have best bags but also best skills - which could both be equalled out to ~1h.

Imo this would be a good stopping point for any of more casual players who don't have much time to play, but want to fill accomplishment after a session (full bags would accomplish that), while more hardcore players won't be able to simply sit in one place overgathering a spot until their ass hurts from not moving.

But that's for pure gathering. I'd want mob farming to take ~3h to fill up an inventory with loot, so a full party could theoretically spend an entire day in one spot, but they'd obviously lose more if attacked. And if the party decides to go with the "carrier" approach to looting (i.e. all loot on one person) - that's a full prime-time of farming, given that they're purely farming and not pvxing.

tautau

Keep in mind that there will probably be a relationship between gathering time and value of gathered items.

For example, a common iron ore likely will be quickly harvested, silver will take longer than iron, gold longer than silver and diamonds longer still. This will probably be reflected both in gathering time (time hitting the rock with your pickax) and rarity of the item gathered - which may vary by location and amount already harvested in the area. All this is influenced by character gathering skill, level of gathering tool, level of bag used (determining quantity to fill bag) and other variables not yet known.

Also, we know that caravan speed is influenced by caravan components, which beast is pulling the wagons, development level of the bridges and roads in the node area, route choice, potential attacks by players and mobs, season and weather (which may also influence gathering speed), and yet more unknown variables.

So, @Xeeg 's basic points are right on track, but the actual computations will be more complex.

nanfoodle

My mind set is not how quit you fill bags. I'm more about how long does it take in town to clean up bag space to get back into the fun. I know MMO developers think that's a fun hobby. Between sufficient bag space. My hope is we have tools like sell all grey items at vendors. Auto sort items in bags into your bank. Filters to find and search fields. Bag space is important but just one part of item management. Also repair all button with a second button that just repairs what you are wearing.

Diamaht

I'd factor in enjoyment as well. No one wants to run back and forth every ten minutes, regardless of level. Even at lower level, you don't want to create a horrible gameplay experience.

The idea of 45 to 60 minutes feels right. For higher level, I wouldn't go crazy. I feel like 5 or 10 times longer for a single individual is too much. Maybe max out at 2 1/2 to 3 hours.

So apx 45 to 60 minutes to start. Speccing, leveling and gearing up to 2 1/2 to 3 hours.

GrilledCheeseMojito

I'm confused at the aim of the question here. I can give you some amount of time, but is the goal to figure out when players should be "forced back to town", or how long they should be out gathering before they get a feeling of accomplishment with a full bag?

I thought the point of having the specific bag limits was mostly about making the players need to bring a mule or some sort of carrying mount, in order to be able to gather more mats.

George_Black

A bit offtopic:
Will AoC be the first mmo to add a search button in the inventory?
Let's hope.

nanfoodle

George_Black wrote: »

A bit offtopic:
Will AoC be the first mmo to add a search button in the inventory?
Let's hope.

Lots of MMOs have that feature. Invantory management is the part of MMOing I hate the most. So many ways to make it manageable.

Like grey drop. I like when low worth items are all stackable. Grey items that don't stack should drop rarely but be worth allot.

Little thought behind little things like this. Makes a big difference.

Diamaht

George_Black wrote: »

A bit offtopic:
Will AoC be the first mmo to add a search button in the inventory?
Let's hope.

You might be right, I can't think of any that had it. If they did I missed it somehow. Definitely needed, with active search too, so we can sort as we type.

CROW3

George_Black wrote: »

A bit offtopic:
Will AoC be the first mmo to add a search button in the inventory?
Let's hope.

Wow implemented this years ago.

Xeeg

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

I'm confused at the aim of the question here. I can give you some amount of time, but is the goal to figure out when players should be "forced back to town", or how long they should be out gathering before they get a feeling of accomplishment with a full bag?

I thought the point of having the specific bag limits was mostly about making the players need to bring a mule or some sort of carrying mount, in order to be able to gather more mats.

Yes, I meant "forced back to town" if their goal is to gather stuff. So when the bags are full and they cant gather anymore.

We should also consider the difference between the main bag (extra gear, quest items, things that dont drop on death), and the materials bag (gathered items that drop on death and go in caravans).

I mean the latter, materials bag.

Xeeg

nanfoodle wrote: »

My mind set is not how quit you fill bags. I'm more about how long does it take in town to clean up bag space to get back into the fun. I know MMO developers think that's a fun hobby.

Well many of the regular items are going to be gatherables; wood, stone etc. So those should be easy to clean up. Once you get back to the node they go right in the stash.

Other items, like spare armour/weapons, consumables, quest items, etc. I expect are not frequently picked up enough to cause depot trips. And many of these items you might just want to keep on you anyways.

So I doubt that we will have a "bag sorting" end game like Diablo 4 had on launch.

Smaashley

George_Black wrote: »

A bit offtopic:
Will AoC be the first mmo to add a search button in the inventory?
Let's hope.

GW2 and apparently WoW have this function. The question would be more like : Are they enough smart to add this inventory function? 🤷‍♂️

nanfoodle

Xeeg wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

My mind set is not how quit you fill bags. I'm more about how long does it take in town to clean up bag space to get back into the fun. I know MMO developers think that's a fun hobby.

Well many of the regular items are going to be gatherables; wood, stone etc. So those should be easy to clean up. Once you get back to the node they go right in the stash.

Other items, like spare armour/weapons, consumables, quest items, etc. I expect are not frequently picked up enough to cause depot trips. And many of these items you might just want to keep on you anyways.

So I doubt that we will have a "bag sorting" end game like Diablo 4 had on launch.

That's only ture if Ashes with one button press you can pull all craftables from your bag into your bank. If you your invatory and bank can be sorted by alpha, numbers, crafting, consumables. I love MMOs when you goto your bank. Chuck all your craftables in the bank and then sort by craftables and this stack and sort for you. Or you are out in the field you can't find that potion you looted 20 min ago and you sort you bags by consumables.

nanfoodle

Smaashley wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

A bit offtopic:
Will AoC be the first mmo to add a search button in the inventory?
Let's hope.

GW2 and apparently WoW have this function. The question would be more like : Are they enough smart to add this inventory function? 🤷‍♂️

That's the running thing, it's so simple to add, most of what's needed to make these things are baked into these systems. It's work but not like it used to be. I would bet UE5 has that baked in. To lazy to check. I know I could program that kind of filter and drop down in Excel in 10 min

Behague

Where can we unload our bags, when there are no nodes developed? Are we going to be running around overencumbered until an expedition procs?

Nerror

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

I thought the point of having the specific bag limits was mostly about making the players need to bring a mule or some sort of carrying mount, in order to be able to gather more mats.

Apparently, mules are only for crates, so players can only carry what they can carry themselves. So yeah, once full, they need to delete some or go back and offload.

Behague wrote: »

Where can we unload our bags, when there are no nodes developed? Are we going to be running around overencumbered until an expedition procs?

In A1, even the level 1 nodes had personal storage. They aren't connected to other nodes, so at some point you'll have to make the trip with the stuff, but they can serve as a drop-off point. Only the level 0/wilderness nodes had nothing.

And as for the OP, about an hour of focused material gathering seems fine. And a few hours of just grinding mobs for glint and other certificates.

Azherae

Assuming:

Stack Size: 20 (what I've seen and wholeheartedly agree with)
Single Bag max 'grid slots': 12 or 28 (Some things definitely take up 1x2 or 2x2, hence the 28, and herbs might have a lot of variety so even if they are 1x1 it might still be good to have 28-slot bags)
Gathering Time: 1-1.5s minimum (this just seems to be the timing that makes it not feel entirely gamey)
Tool durability: 250
Time-distance between resource cluster spawns: 12-15s (because anything less means you can always see the item or its indicator, which is bad both for player experience and for messing with bots, and gives the better micro-PoI feeling)
Yield of Common Resources per interaction: 2-5, usually lower end (personal preference, higher numbers start to feel really strange even as a skill reward, and rewarding higher skill with higher yields is BDO-tier bad)

Then for me an average-to-high-quality bag is full when you reached approximately:
240 herbs, 120 large ores, 240 'logs', etc, 14-17 types of fish

For economic smoothness, it would likely be impossible for all of that to be the primary goal material if you had one. So you would only actually fill the bag if you, for example, picked up every possible type of log/ore and weren't focusing on a specific one, or trading, and some slots would be taken up by rares which then wouldn't have full stacks.

I'd expect that 60-75% of the stacks would be intended to be full/near-full before the gatherer thought it was time to head back. A better bag would be 'bigger' but would probably still fill in that time as more unique rares fall into slots.

At 20s per cluster and a cluster yield of average 10-12 of a common item (halve for ores), assuming the area contains enough danger that the player must PvE or PvP for at least 15s between 'every other' cluster', bags should fill in 28 minutes with an uncontested (no other Gatherer) gathering route. Tuned this way, there's also an auto-alignment between 'number of empty bag slots' and 'amount of time expected to be gathering' which helps with some things.

Economically, considering no fast travel, that gives us 120-300 items/h per route (I don't measure this by player as that's another BDO flaw due to resource respawns being too quick there sometimes)

Prices can be tuned around this, I prefer 50 Cu for abundant items, and 100-150 for abundant ores, which lets you set very understandable 'at-a-glance' NPC price floors. Rare items can just be double this as NPC price floor, no one should ever want to sell them for that, but it does a good job of showing additional value instantly to players who don't have a need to look it up, and has some other benefits.

Since my bias is that 'adventures' including setup and return, take 60-90m, the above is my preference.

EDIT: Realized that I didn't clarify, 50 isn't the price floor, the price floor is 10-20, 50 is what you expect other players to want to pay, and maybe the world manager for places where the item is unavailable (so that even a 5x WM multiplier on an abundant import is around equal to general player expected price when they come to visit for the purchase)

Xeeg

Behague wrote: »

Where can we unload our bags, when there are no nodes developed? Are we going to be running around overencumbered until an expedition procs?

Hey this is an awesome point!

Maybe its the starting spawn town? If there is a town? I imagine there is, with some basic services.

I guess if level 0 nodes don't have any storage then it would make far away nodes harder to develop at the start. Maybe you just need to farm there anyways and let mats poof until u get it leveled up?

Shrug

Xeeg

Azherae wrote: »

Assuming:

Stack Size: 20 (what I've seen and wholeheartedly agree with)
Single Bag max 'grid slots': 12 or 28 (Some things definitely take up 1x2 or 2x2, hence the 28, and herbs might have a lot of variety so even if they are 1x1 it might still be good to have 28-slot bags)
Gathering Time: 1-1.5s minimum (this just seems to be the timing that makes it not feel entirely gamey)
Tool durability: 250
Time-distance between resource cluster spawns: 12-15s (because anything less means you can always see the item or its indicator, which is bad both for player experience and for messing with bots, and gives the better micro-PoI feeling)
Yield of Common Resources per interaction: 2-5, usually lower end (personal preference, higher numbers start to feel really strange even as a skill reward, and rewarding higher skill with higher yields is BDO-tier bad)

Then for me an average-to-high-quality bag is full when you reached approximately:
240 herbs, 120 large ores, 240 'logs', etc, 14-17 types of fish

Yeah I guess each of these assumptions play some kind of role in the overall player experience.

Do we know yet what the starter material bags look like? In the showcase it looked like they had a few different bags, but I dunno if those were items they equipped or were default.

Azherae wrote: »

Prices can be tuned around this, I prefer 50 Cu for abundant items, and 100-150 for abundant ores, which lets you set very understandable 'at-a-glance' NPC price floors. Rare items can just be double this as NPC price floor, no one should ever want to sell them for that, but it does a good job of showing additional value instantly to players who don't have a need to look it up, and has some other benefits.

Hmmm... However they set it up, the devs can calculate the maximum gathering output for any given area to see what prices could be. They will also get more data in Alpha 2 about player behaviors and whatnot that can help them tune their system.

Xeeg

Nerror wrote: »

And as for the OP, about an hour of focused material gathering seems fine. And a few hours of just grinding mobs for glint and other certificates.

Yeah, "About an hour" seems to make sense as some kind of overall average depending on all the various factors.

But then again. Would it really be good to take an hour of straight gathering with no breaks for combat? Maybe 20m straight grind is long enough...

I'm talking about you want wood and you go outside your node and straight chop wood or something.

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