DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Endowed wrote: »

Seems like someone desperate to push addons and meters at any cost. Sounds exactly like modern politicians.

I mean, I don't need to push trackers.

I have one that is ready to use, and I don't care if you don't use one.

The main reason I'm posting in this thread is to educate others, specifically on misconceptions about what trackers can and can't do, but also on other things that come up on occasion.

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

The main reason I'm posting in this thread is to educate others, specifically on misconceptions about what trackers can and can't do, but also on other things that come up on occasion.

Not sure if it's working.

Funny thing is, the exact thing they don't want to happen IS what will happen. Only the most hardcore elite people who take the time to dissect their combat logs and test out different builds will actually know what is going on in the game.

Everyone else will be clueless and just do what they think is cool at first, and resorting to "meta" builds when they fail. Because analyzing combat logs while tweaking builds, gear, buffs, etc is going to take too long for the average player without a simple tracker.

Most people just want to play the game, not copy paste combat logs into spreadsheets and analyze them for hours on end.

Noaani

Xeeg wrote: »

Not sure if it's working.

It's worked on a few people in this thread.

Most people are willing to listen (or read) and understand.

Some people aren't, without a doubt. But people like Laetitian do listen, even if they sometimes get frustrated.

That frustration is something I understand well - especially when it is in relation to people mis-placing toxicity to being from combat trackers. Being told - with evidence - that this is not the case, and the thing you have been hating on for sometimes years isn't actually the source of the issues that you thought it was; yeah, that is hard to take.

One need look no further than Steven. This was pointed out to him, he refused to believe it, then made the completely irrational decision to state that trackers won't be used in Ashes despite knowing full well that he can't stop them - and even cited "toxicity" as his primary reason for not "allowing" them.

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

One need look no further than Steven. This was pointed out to him, he refused to believe it, then made the completely irrational decision to state that trackers won't be used in Ashes despite knowing full well that he can't stop them - and even cited "toxicity" as his primary reason for not "allowing" them.

Yeah, I've said it a few times - If you can't enforce a rule that gives an advantage to rule breakers, you are only harming the rule followers.

Better to design a system that gives everyone an equal playing footing.

Dygz

Texas wrote: »

Two bosses in, they figured out what they thought was meta was just plain wrong. I'm not sure I would have had raid spots without DPS meters giving instant feedback.

People will always come up with a META. Even when there isn't one.
The designers should not provide UI to support the notion of META. Especially not in Ashes.
Because then they will design battles and bosses to support the use of such tools.

Dygz

Laetitian wrote: »

No. You can create the demand for self-sufficiency in a ton of ways.

The entire point of a multiplayer RPG is to not have self-sufficiency in groups.

Laetitian

Noaani wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

Do you ever make concessions in discussions btw? All that has been said is that it might be possible for non-hyperspecialisation to be a viable advantage, and you can't even give that much ground?

You may be thinking you are discussing something specific, something no one had thought of, but specialization and efficiency is a well studied field. The notion that more people result in more specialization is a well understood fact - it isn't me having an opinion on something. Even bees and ants understand this (well, follow the basic principles of it, at least).

The only opinion here that I have shared is in relation to it being possible to have content for more generalized players at a player count of 3 or 4. I've not seen it happen, but I am of the opinion that it would be possible. The raid content I talked about above didnt really ask anything od players that they werent already doing. I'd actually be excited to see content like this if someone made it.

I am not saying no one thought about it, I am saying you are thinking about it in too rigorous systems you are used to. Think about games where subsequent healing and shielding from external sources gets reduced. You have no other choice but to rely on a portion of self-protection for moments where DPS are threatened, because if you just add 15 healers to a 40 player party, instead of reserving 15 skill points on the DPS for self-preservation, you're not being efficient.
I am not advocating for skill design like that, I do like a decent amount of specialisation. But there are other ways to achieve the same effect, like adding specific enemies that ignore/disable externally applied heals/shields (another fairly simplistic gimmicky idea, but it's just a hypothetical to prove the point.)

Your insistence on relying on past experience and employing no creativity to envision ways it could be any other way makes it pretty difficult for conversations with you to go anywhere...

Endowed

Noaani wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Seems like someone desperate to push addons and meters at any cost. Sounds exactly like modern politicians.

I mean, I don't need to push trackers.

I have one that is ready to use, and I don't care if you don't use one.

The main reason I'm posting in this thread is to educate others, specifically on misconceptions about what trackers can and can't do, but also on other things that come up on occasion.

1. There will always be people going outside the game to gain an advantage (hack/cheat/code/rmt/etc). And even worse some will make it public. Many which will be against the rules/eula.
2. For someone who doesn't need to -- you full-force do push it. It's obviously you gain emotional fulfillment from them. Bragging about it right here for that needed "stroke".

Noaani

Laetitian wrote: »

Think about games where subsequent healing and shielding from external sources gets reduced.

I would be questioning the ability of the developer.

Perhaps I am not getting the point across properly.

It isn't that a developer couldn't produce some random system that makes what you are saying possible - it is that this game would fail before going live.

The actual point of groups and raids is to be a part of something greater than the sum of its parts. The point isn't for group play to function the same as solo play does - which is what you are asking for whether you realize it or not.

The point of groups is to get yourself in to a situation where you can focus on one thing. To outsource other aspects of combat to group members so that you can do the onenpart your class is best at.

It isn't a design fault that players in groups or raids focus on one task - even aside from it being what is always going to happen, it is literally what developers wanting uou to do.

If group and raid content played as if it were just a whole lot of people soloing next to each other, that game would be doomed.

As I said above, I have seen games thst take larger groups and split them in to smaller - for one off pieces of content this is fine. It isn't a way to form the basis of a game though.

Noaani

Endowed wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Seems like someone desperate to push addons and meters at any cost. Sounds exactly like modern politicians.

I mean, I don't need to push trackers.

I have one that is ready to use, and I don't care if you don't use one.

The main reason I'm posting in this thread is to educate others, specifically on misconceptions about what trackers can and can't do, but also on other things that come up on occasion.

1. There will always be people going outside the game to gain an advantage (hack/cheat/code/rmt/etc). And even worse some will make it public. Many which will be against the rules/eula.
2. For someone who doesn't need to -- you full-force do push it. It's obviously you gain emotional fulfillment from them. Bragging about it right here for that needed "stroke".

Nope, just here to educate, as I said.

People on these forums have known for probably 3 years now that I will have a tracker ready for beta (now alpha).

I want this game to be as good as it can be. One of the things it needs to do to be as good as it can be, is to have all players on as equal a footing as possible. Since I will have a combat tracker (not up for debate), and others will to, the only way to have all players be on an equal footing is to ensure all players have access to a combat tracker.

It is up to the individual what to do with it from there, but if only some of us have it and others don't, the game will be the worse for it.

That - in a nutshell - is my argument.

Endowed

Noaani wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Seems like someone desperate to push addons and meters at any cost. Sounds exactly like modern politicians.

I mean, I don't need to push trackers.

I have one that is ready to use, and I don't care if you don't use one.

The main reason I'm posting in this thread is to educate others, specifically on misconceptions about what trackers can and can't do, but also on other things that come up on occasion.

1. There will always be people going outside the game to gain an advantage (hack/cheat/code/rmt/etc). And even worse some will make it public. Many which will be against the rules/eula.
2. For someone who doesn't need to -- you full-force do push it. It's obviously you gain emotional fulfillment from them. Bragging about it right here for that needed "stroke".

Nope, just here to educate, as I said.

People on these forums have known for probably 3 years now that I will have a tracker ready for beta (now alpha).

I want this game to be as good as it can be. One of the things it needs to do to be as good as it can be, is to have all players on as equal a footing as possible. Since I will have a combat tracker (not up for debate), and others will to, the only way to have all players be on an equal footing is to ensure all players have access to a combat tracker.

It is up to the individual what to do with it from there, but if only some of us have it and others don't, the game will be the worse for it.

That - in a nutshell - is my argument.

People are on equal footing without your out-of-game hacks.

Noaani

Endowed wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Seems like someone desperate to push addons and meters at any cost. Sounds exactly like modern politicians.

I mean, I don't need to push trackers.

I have one that is ready to use, and I don't care if you don't use one.

The main reason I'm posting in this thread is to educate others, specifically on misconceptions about what trackers can and can't do, but also on other things that come up on occasion.

1. There will always be people going outside the game to gain an advantage (hack/cheat/code/rmt/etc). And even worse some will make it public. Many which will be against the rules/eula.
2. For someone who doesn't need to -- you full-force do push it. It's obviously you gain emotional fulfillment from them. Bragging about it right here for that needed "stroke".

Nope, just here to educate, as I said.

People on these forums have known for probably 3 years now that I will have a tracker ready for beta (now alpha).

I want this game to be as good as it can be. One of the things it needs to do to be as good as it can be, is to have all players on as equal a footing as possible. Since I will have a combat tracker (not up for debate), and others will to, the only way to have all players be on an equal footing is to ensure all players have access to a combat tracker.

It is up to the individual what to do with it from there, but if only some of us have it and others don't, the game will be the worse for it.

That - in a nutshell - is my argument.

People are on equal footing without your out-of-game hacks.

It isn't a hack, it is math. Graphs, specifically.

It not existing isn't an option. There has never been a live MMORPG in which combat trackers were not being used. Ashes isn't going to suddenly change that.

Endowed

Yes. Everyone is equal.
Your out of game actions disrupt that.

Noaani

Endowed wrote: »

Yes. Everyone is equal.
Your out of game actions disrupt that.

It isn't just me though.

As I have been saying for years - combat trackers are just a fact. They exist, they will be used. Developers simply do not get to dictate to me what I do on my computer outside of their game - just as they do not get to dictate to you which internet browser you need to use.

Pyrolol

Endowed wrote: »

Yes. Everyone is equal.
Your out of game actions disrupt that.

Didn’t know we were playing Ashes of Communism

HazardNumberSeven

No, to DPS meters. They would also be useless in a real MMO that isn't World of Warcraft, and arguably are pretty useless in a lot of content in World of Warcraft.

People who stare at the DPS meter used to get kicked and blacklisted for being DPS whores and not paying attention to important mechanics and just padding numbers.

I really doubt we're going to have that same WoW style brain-dead content in Ashes, and I thought they had already decided that third party programs won't be allowed.

Solvryn

Endowed wrote: »

Yes. Everyone is equal.
Your out of game actions disrupt that.

Soon as someone writes something down on paper, in a spreadsheet, a VOD, or any other program its data that is being tracked.

A combat tracker does all of the longhand stuff like gathering, recording, cleaning, data visualization, that data analysts do and wraps it in a nice neat little bow for you.

Though most like people here still wouldn't be able to interpret the data or gain any meaningful insight from it because they demonstrate that they don't understand what it even means on this thread daily.

You guys are getting pissed at people who do not understand how to interpret data insights into anything useful and calling the tracker itself toxic, when its infact a bunch of players who see "BIG NUMBER GO BRRRRRRRRRRRRR" without any context.

That's why MMORPGs have been dumbed down over the years because people struggle with basic visualizations and sonifications let alone the statistical analysis portion of a video game.

And it's exactly why I do not care if trackers are in the game, it doesn't change the fact people don't know what they're looking at.

Dygz

I'm not pissed at anyone. Steven is not pissed at anyone.Yoshi-P is not pissed at anyone.

Players who wish to rely on spreadsheets are fine.
Gamers who wish to cheat with add-ons are fine.
I don't want the devs to design the bosses with the expectation that everyone will be relying on built-in DPS meters the same way they rely on built-in Health bars, rather than on focusing on the physical actions of their group mates.
I want the devs to design the game expecting that most players won't feel a need to rely on DPS meters.

AFAIK... Noaani wants the devs to design the game such that DPS meters are necessary to defeat elite Bosses.

Texas

Aren't you just saying that you want PvE content to be really easy? If a boss fight is such that you can't improve by reviewing what happened in the last fight, that sounds like pretty boring PvE.

Ludullu

Texas wrote: »

Aren't you just saying that you want PvE content to be really easy? If a boss fight is such that you can't improve by reviewing what happened in the last fight, that sounds like pretty boring PvE.

If devs can't design a difficult fight, where you don't need a parser to tell you what happened - they've failed as devs. Meters are much more of a crutch for the devs rather than for the players.

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