Alpha 2 Keys

I heard a lot of talk about a2 keys being cheaper than normal.

i personally believe this is a horrible idea. 1 you mess up with people who purchased it before.

just release the a2 packs for sale again, for the people who missed them.
no need to punish the people who bough them early. and no need to cater to people who bought them late.

release them full price. and it's the only way to go.

or you could make them cheaper and make a bunch of A2 buyers very upset. Or you could make them same price but without skins and make new players upset.

but if you release them same price as before same pack....no issues.

thoughts?

personally. if we cater to people that are late now.... we'll expect this in the future as well and maybe even hope to take advantage of it.

what do you guys think?

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Glir

I'm glad that there will be new A2 keys and many people who could not afford to buy $250 packages will join us.
But still, I also understand that 80% of people who bought A2 packages would not have done so earlier if they knew that Intrepids would release them before the launch or at the beginning of the launch of A2. Most of them were not interested in cosmetics and monthly subscriptions included in the packs.

Noaani

Ripteye wrote: »

It is funny I agree with most of what you said; however to say it is not predatory is not a factual statement.

It is a factual statement.

Setting up a currency like this is the only way game developers have come up with to be able to sell products in game around the world.

There are a few factors to consider here;

The first is that Intrepids costs are in $US, and so that needs to be the basis of their income.

The second is that most countries around the world require all products to have the advertised price be the actual price paid (so, no conversions, tax needs to be included etc).

The third thing to consider is that the actual value of currencies changes all the time.

What these all add up to is that if Intrepid attempted to have an in game store that handled all transactions and currency exchanges in the game itself, the game would need to be updated every few seconds to account for changes in currencies that are supported.

This is obviously not going to work.

So, instead, they set that exchange to happen outside of the game - by a third party that specalizes in this. So, you use that website to purchase in game currency, and they advertise the price of items using that in game currency.

This means that they are able to advertise the actual cost for the parts of the world that require this (which, as far as I know, is all but one country). This also means they don't need to update the game (or the store) every time there is a change in currency valuation somewhere in the world.

Keep in mind, the above is the reason why you can purchase things for games on websites using regular currency, but if you are buying it in game, you either use an in game currency, or you are taken out of the game and given a website to make that purchase (developers of online games do not like forcing people out of the game, which is why they often won't have a means of doing this in game.

Sure, a system like this "can" be used for ill intent. I am not disputing that. However, the existence of this kind of system does not mean ill is indeed intended. It's like owning a hacksaw in that regard - they absolutely can be used for ill intent, but owning one does not mean you have that intent to do ill.

I may be wrong, but I think this is where our opinions mostly diverge - you are assuming the simple act of owning the tool means the intent to use the tool for ill is present. I see the owning of the tool as nothing more than owning the tool.

I also want to point out that you are compleletely wrong with your characterizing this as being preditory - using your own comment here

Ripteye wrote: »

Predatory behavior refers to actions and conduct characterized by the exploitation, manipulation, or harm of others for personal gain, satisfaction, or gratification. This behavior often involves deceit, aggression, or manipulation to take advantage of vulnerable individuals or situations.

There i sno deceit, aggression or manipulation in this system, thus by your own provided definition it is not preditory.

You could make an argument if it cost something like $12.47 to purchase 9.25 embers. That is needlessly obfuscating the real value of them. However, with an exchange of $10 for 1000, they have done everything they can to specifically not manipulate things.

The fact that their scaling for spending additional money on embers is fairly consistent also says they are not trying to be manipulative in any way. Spend $10 and get 1000, or spend $25 and get an additional 10% for free, or spend #35 and get an additional 15% free, or spend $60 and get 20% for free, or spend $100 and get 35% for free. Because most people can't or won't do the math, and because the %35 and %60 are most likely to be the bigger sellers, manipulative would be if they offered fewer additional embers for these two packs - but they have not.

I am not the biggest fan of some things Intrepid are doing, and have been vocal enough about that on these forums. However, they have already demonstrated a desire to not be manipulative in the manner you have talked about, and so them using a tool that others use to be manipulative is not cause for concern.

In all honesty, the closest thing to manipulation by Intrepid is the notion of selling things for $9.99 rather than $10. That is a known manipulation that many businesses do, as people associate $9.99 as being under $10, or $99.99 as being under $100, and so are more ready to spend. I don't think anyone is willing to give Intrepid shit over this specifically, but it is indeed a form of manipulation designed to get people to spend more.

Noaani

Lineager wrote: »

I'm glad that there will be new A2 keys and many people who could not afford to buy $250 packages will join us.
But still, I also understand that 80% of people who bought A2 packages would not have done so earlier if they knew that Intrepids would release them before the launch or at the beginning of the launch of A2. Most of them were not interested in cosmetics and monthly subscriptions included in the packs.

I fully fall in to this catagory.

However, I purchased a thing from Intrepid at an agreed upon price. If I get the thing I paid for, I have no reason to complain that someone else for the same thing cheaper.

I got the purchase I signed up for.

StickyRubb

GoodSheperd wrote: »

StickyRubb wrote: »

GoodSheperd wrote: »

Good thing it isn't up to you and is instead up to intrepid to run their business.

2 years ago when you bought your pack you were supporting the funding for the game itself and A2 access was simply a perk that came along with that choice.

If you are upset about spending the money then you simply shouldn't have spent it in the first place.

Bring as many people as possible into A2!

I spent that money 4 years ago because it was the only way to get access to the game in the foreseeable future. Yes, I also spent it because I wanted to support the company, but that doesn't make it right to strip the package from all its parts except for the key, and then sell it for less money under the guise of; 'but there are no skins included!'. It's just coming across as disingenuous, and I shouldn't have to tell you this.

Please explain how any of this is wrong, disingenuous, or shady?

They gave plenty of time for the pack sales, they allowed you to upgrade packs after the fact. They even stated very clearly keys MAY be available for sale separately at a later date if their needs increase.

Please give me a valid reason that isn't "I paid more", I got FOMO/they created FOMO, or you are wanting to make it as exclusive as possible?

I'll start by saying that I am just as hyped for Ashes as I was 4 years ago. I don't dislike Intrepid at all, I just wanted to voice my honest opinion.

Let's be real; Intrepid themselves didn't anticipate this progress in terms of server capabilities, so how could players? Yes, they mentioned that in the future, maybe they'll sell Alpha 2 access again. I don't think anyone had a clue that it would be BEFORE A2 launches. I think that's a big part of it. Years ago we bought access because we were under the impression that it was the only way to get in at the START of A2. Sure, others might join later, but I wanna be there at the beginning. So, after years and years, it's almost time to get something for the hundreds of dollars we paid, and now they sell the same access for less money. I know, there is more in the package than the access and I don't regret my purchase, but who knows when we'll be able to use the rest of our package. How long will it take before we can utilise the rest of what we paid for? All these upcoming years the new buyers will have a much better deal in their hands.

StickyRubb

George_Black wrote: »

Here is another thought.
Maybe you should start a topic about the features of AoC and its development, a game that tries to bring back the joy of playing mmos, after 2 decades of crap, instead of talking about how IS should run their business.
You have one lame topic in your account and frankly it was a mistake that I wasted my time here.

I'm not talking about a lack of quality in the game itself. I think Ashes is going to turn out amazing. I'm strictly talking about practices that could come across as predatory.

StickyRubb

Sengarden wrote: »

I'm sorry, but paying for exclusivity, or suggesting that your purchase - because it already came with a bunch of other stuff with a real world value of almost $200 that you willingly and knowingly paid for in addition to A2 access - should grant you some sort of post-purchase early access is so unbelievably toxic. Gated access? Really? This isn't even a final product, and gated access is bad enough for those.

It's an alpha test. You paid $250 to get into an alpha test, and didn't even stop to consider how they were getting you to spend so much. Did you even want $100 in cosmetic shop currency? No? Then why did you buy it? Maybe you should spend the time you took to write this forum post reconsidering how you spend your money if you're going to be this sour over market-price fluctuations and bundled-vs-solo product availability based on supply and demand.

I mentioned this in my post already, but at the time those expensive packages were the only way to get access. We had no clue that Intrepid would sell keys BEFORE A2 would launch. Which is what it's looking like right now. I'm pretty sure most of us were under the impression that buying a large package was the only way to be there at the START of A2.

StickyRubb

Lineager wrote: »

I'm glad that there will be new A2 keys and many people who could not afford to buy $250 packages will join us.
But still, I also understand that 80% of people who bought A2 packages would not have done so earlier if they knew that Intrepids would release them before the launch or at the beginning of the launch of A2. Most of them were not interested in cosmetics and monthly subscriptions included in the packs.

My thoughts exactly, and I fail to see why so many people can't fathom this thought process.

StickyRubb

Liniker wrote: »

I believe intrepid will honor their previous backers and not release A2 access for anything less than 250$. The majority of people did not buy their packs for cosmetics, gametime or embers, they paid 250$ to get access. Intrepid is not EA, Ubisoft or Blizzard to pretend they don't know this.

Exactly.

Ripteye

StickyRubb wrote: »

GoodSheperd wrote: »

StickyRubb wrote: »

GoodSheperd wrote: »

Good thing it isn't up to you and is instead up to intrepid to run their business.

2 years ago when you bought your pack you were supporting the funding for the game itself and A2 access was simply a perk that came along with that choice.

If you are upset about spending the money then you simply shouldn't have spent it in the first place.

Bring as many people as possible into A2!

I spent that money 4 years ago because it was the only way to get access to the game in the foreseeable future. Yes, I also spent it because I wanted to support the company, but that doesn't make it right to strip the package from all its parts except for the key, and then sell it for less money under the guise of; 'but there are no skins included!'. It's just coming across as disingenuous, and I shouldn't have to tell you this.

Please explain how any of this is wrong, disingenuous, or shady?

They gave plenty of time for the pack sales, they allowed you to upgrade packs after the fact. They even stated very clearly keys MAY be available for sale separately at a later date if their needs increase.

Please give me a valid reason that isn't "I paid more", I got FOMO/they created FOMO, or you are wanting to make it as exclusive as possible?

I'll start by saying that I am just as hyped for Ashes as I was 4 years ago. I don't dislike Intrepid at all, I just wanted to voice my honest opinion.

Let's be real; Intrepid themselves didn't anticipate this progress in terms of server capabilities, so how could players? Yes, they mentioned that in the future, maybe they'll sell Alpha 2 access again. I don't think anyone had a clue that it would be BEFORE A2 launches. I think that's a big part of it. Years ago we bought access because we were under the impression that it was the only way to get in at the START of A2. Sure, others might join later, but I wanna be there at the beginning. So, after years and years, it's almost time to get something for the hundreds of dollars we paid, and now they sell the same access for less money. I know, there is more in the package than the access and I don't regret my purchase, but who knows when we'll be able to use the rest of our package. How long will it take before we can utilise the rest of what we paid for? All these upcoming years the new buyers will have a much better deal in their hands.

All of that is irrelevant for today. Just like you intrepid can not predict the future. They owe you only what you purchased at the time of purchase.

Ripteye

Doesn't matter you made the decision to purchase when you did. They have the right to change the price and what is or is not included whenever they so choose.

StickyRubb

Ripteye wrote: »

Doesn't matter you made the decision to purchase when you did. They have the right to change the price and what is or is not included whenever they so choose.

I don't understand your mentality on this. It might be legal, yes. They might have the right, yes. We're talking about fairness. Is it transparent and fair to their existing 'playerbase'? I think it isn't. I'm just voicing my opinion because I'm passionate about this project, and I think it could change the genre for good. An open and honest communication is part of this.

Myosotys

Friss wrote: »

I heard a lot of talk about a2 keys being cheaper than normal.

i personally believe this is a horrible idea. 1 you mess up with people who purchased it before.

just release the a2 packs for sale again, for the people who missed them.
no need to punish the people who bough them early. and no need to cater to people who bought them late.

release them full price. and it's the only way to go.

or you could make them cheaper and make a bunch of A2 buyers very upset. Or you could make them same price but without skins and make new players upset.

but if you release them same price as before same pack....no issues.

thoughts?

personally. if we cater to people that are late now.... we'll expect this in the future as well and maybe even hope to take advantage of it.

what do you guys think?

I'm all for selling new accesses at lower prices, without cosmetics or any options (A2 and/or B1 - B2).

If it's technically possible, then the more testers there are, the better for the game.

On the other hand, accesses were sold with a sales argument of exclusivity over a given period (buy now or never).

If this "now or never" argument only concerns the options around the accesses and not the accesses themselves, then it's fair. If it also concerned access, then I can understand some people's frustration.

Noaani

StickyRubb wrote: »

Ripteye wrote: »

Doesn't matter you made the decision to purchase when you did. They have the right to change the price and what is or is not included whenever they so choose.

I don't understand your mentality on this. It might be legal, yes. They might have the right, yes. We're talking about fairness. Is it transparent and fair to their existing 'playerbase'?.

Sure it is.

Did you get the item you intended to purchase, for the price you agreed to purchase it for?

If you did, then it was a completely fair, transparent exchange.

Hope

Ripteye wrote: »

Doesn't matter you made the decision to purchase when you did. They have the right to change the price and what is or is not included whenever they so choose.

Sure. They have the right to change the price, and what is or isn't included. However, as a purchaser of that product/access, we have every right to voice our dissatisfaction if we feel Intrepid misled us when making that purchase.

The fact of the matter is, Intrepid announced that they were ending their sales of A2 access, indicating that this would be your last chance to purchase access if you're interested. Those people had to make a choice of whether to buy access in a pack that included game time, cosmetics, embers etc, for a minimum of 250$. There was no other choice to guarantee access. They didn't offer the option to simply buy access as a standalone product, and Intrepid never stated this would be an option pre Alpha 2. You were left with a choice of access for 250$ or no access at all.

Yes, they did mention that they may, or may not offer alternative ways to purchase into the Alpha 2 testing phase at a later time. However, there was no clear indication this would happen before the Alpha begins.

Intrepid are arguing that because of their new networking solutions, including their dynamic grid server meshing, they can now support more players for the testing phase. However, we already know that there are more than 100K+ A2 keyholders. Are you saying that 100K+ is not enough testers for the initial phase? Do they really need more testers then that for the 1st day of Alpha 2?

Also, even if their new networking solutions might allow more players in an area without setting the servers on fire, this still doesn't technically increase the server/realm capacity. Nodes, and the content accompanying nodes are designed to host a certain number of players, even with server meshing and dynamic gridding, you cant just suddenly cram 50k players into the Riverlands on the same realm. The game functionally can't support that amount of players in a limited play space.

I think the reason a lot of people are unhappy with Intrepid announcing the re-opening of key sales is that we assumed they would re-open sales after the first initial testing wave when tester numbers were starting to dwindle. This would make sense in order to maintain healthy testing numbers, while also not upsetting the initial backers that purchased access before they initially closed the sales.

Just my two cents. I'm a A1 backer, and I'm happy with my purchase, but I understand the frustration of some of the people who dropped 250$+ for access under "false pretense".

Noaani

Hope wrote: »

The fact of the matter is, Intrepid announced that they were ending their sales of A2 access, indicating that this would be your last chance to purchase access if you're interested.

If that is how you took their statement, that is on you for misunderstanding.

Our pre-order packs were intended to be a way for players to support the project by providing an opportunity to collect exclusive cosmetic appearances that are used in creating the world of Verra, while respecting our commitment to zero-tolerance pay-to-win whatsoever. As we draw closer to our Alpha Two and Beta testing periods, we want to ensure a glorious experience for our players who have signed up to help make Ashes of Creation the MMORPG it deserves to be. To that end, we have decided to discontinue the packs until such time as our internal and/or external testing supports the admission of additional testers. We will continue to update our community when more ways become available to access Alpha Two or Beta testing through our communication channels.

That is what they actually said, and it contains a specific point that access will start up again at a future point.

Githal

this sounds like a common saying in my country: "I am good as long as my neighbor has it worse than me!".

Why not just be happy that someone else will be able to get the A2 access for cheaper, even tho you didnt?

Aszkalon

Some People on YouTube Channels are very confident,

if more Alpha Two Keys come out in the sooner or futher Future which are solely for Access -> then those will most likely have the same Price than the Alpha Two Access Keys of the Past which were solely for Access and not for anything cosmetic.

Aszkalon

Sinder wrote: »

If there's enough room for everyone to have fun then their shouldn't be an issue.

Hi, Sinder.

I get the Impression recently that People are "already" having their Fun. A little bit different like when there was Hype around late September 2023 to February 2024.

It is also nice to see Interest for the Alpha Two in the Forum going up for a bit.

Noaani

Aszkalon wrote: »

Some People on YouTube Channels are very confident

Well, if people on YouTube said it, then it MUST be true.

The problem with this is that not all packs had the cost of the access offered work out to be the same.

patrick68794

They should honestly just put the Voyager pack back up at the same price for this instead of doing anything new or different. Then everyone on both sides of the issue could shut up about it

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