How to make Support classes (Bard and Summoner) unique, viable and needed in every group?

The most basic thing is that Other classes should not be able to do what the support classes do. But what this includes?
Every class (or almost every) should have some self mobility (be it charge, teleport, move speed increase or ect). Also most will most likely have at least 1 cc (stun/silence/slow/sleep/freeze and ect). So if there is DR on cc - in a 8v8 fight, if every dps uses 1 cc - then the Bard/Summoner using cc on the target will be with 1/20 of the time (if not complete immune).

So 1 way to solve this is give supports cc separate DR than non support spells. For example all dps classes share DR of their stun spell. So if Mage freeze stun you, the next stun you get from rogue will be with half duration. BUT Bard stun will share DR with other bards and summoners, so after mage freeze, Bard can stun for full duration, but if another bard or summoner stun the same target the duration is halved (which dont affect dps stun duraion)

Other thing is that in PVE most bosses will be immune to CC, and as a whole utility like increase ally move speed, or grip ally to your position and other like this wont be very useful in PVE. So their buffs/debuffs should be good enough to compensate in pve situations.

Maybe they can be the only classes with cleanse spells as a unique mechanic.

What do you think and do you have other or better ideas?

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Texas

Summoner-Tank (Blood Warden) may very well end up a better tank than Tank-Summoner (Keeper). We don't know jack right now.

Guardian probably won't be the best tank at everything. Some other classes might have better threat generation, or damage, or a certain ability that helps on a certain boss. Hopefully, there is enough encounter diversity that Guardian isn't always best.

Noaani

Texas wrote: »

Summoner-Tank (Blood Warden) may very well end up a better tank than Tank-Summoner (Keeper). We don't know jack right now.

Guardian probably won't be the best tank at everything. Some other classes might have better threat generation, or damage, or a certain ability that helps on a certain boss. Hopefully, there is enough encounter diversity that Guardian isn't always best.

While I agree - this would only really be a good thing if it is fairly easy to swap secondary class. Without the ability to alter your secondary class to suit the content, if the above does happen, it will mean many tanks may simply never see entire aspects of the games content, simply because they picked the wrong secondary for it.

This is also one of the issues with having summoners be jack of all trades - that is only a viable role to have if an individual player can switch easily between each role. If you have a summoner in your group in a DPS role and your tank says they need to step out for 15 minutes, the summoner should be able to put their hand up and say they will fill in. This is only viable if that summoner can change their secondary class to tank while still inside the dungeon.

If that summoner has to say "I can fill in for the tank, lets go back to town so I can respec" then the notion of a jack of all trades class is already lost. As we understand Ashes at the moment, that summoner would need to complete a somewhat extensive quest line to change secondaries - meaning that summoner in the group with the tank that needs to step away for 15 minutes can say something along the lines of "hey guys, I'm a jack of all trades, I can fill in for the tank, just give me 4 days!".

I am of the opinion that this is why Intrepid have taken so long to talk about the summoner - the very concept of the class is at odds with the desire to make it hard to change your secondary.

Graugus

This is one I've been wondering about as well. I am hoping that they can pull off unique abilities and particle effects with each. While I can't and won't comment about Summoner and Bard's group roles (Classes probably won't be what most think it will be in the traditional sense).

Again, I'm hoping the augment system introduction will vastly change a base class abilities and particle effects to be unrecognizable as the primary (I plan on playing a Shaman which I hope doesn't resemble a Cleric at all).

I'll reserve my opinions when I can test and give factual input when augments are available.

Azherae

Graugus wrote: »

This is one I've been wondering about as well. I am hoping that they can pull off unique abilities and particle effects with each. While I can't and won't comment about Summoner and Bard's group roles (Classes probably won't be what most think it will be in the traditional sense).

Again, I'm hoping the augment system introduction will vastly change a base class abilities and particle effects to be unrecognizable as the primary (I plan on playing a Shaman which I hope doesn't resemble a Cleric at all).

I'll reserve my opinions when I can test and give factual input when augments are available.

It's quite likely that the skill will literally change, as they've demonstrated before with Maim.

The main difficulty that arose when we moved from games that barely had animations, to the current era of games, was animation length and distance traveled being tweaked in ways that were janky. We got through that part by a combination of 'realizing players didn't care that much' and 'just having larger memory footprint to work with for the abilities'.

But it should all be fine now, most games just prefer to put these as entirely separate abilities.

For summons it's probably even easier.

Githal

Graugus wrote: »

This is one I've been wondering about as well. I am hoping that they can pull off unique abilities and particle effects with each. While I can't and won't comment about Summoner and Bard's group roles (Classes probably won't be what most think it will be in the traditional sense).

Again, I'm hoping the augment system introduction will vastly change a base class abilities and particle effects to be unrecognizable as the primary (I plan on playing a Shaman which I hope doesn't resemble a Cleric at all).

I'll reserve my opinions when I can test and give factual input when augments are available.

Well they already said that for summoner different augment means different summons. Like necromancer will have undead army. Beastmaster will control beasts and ect.
Tho I am not sure how i should feel about the "necromancer" class (summoner + cleric), Since the class doesnt seem like a heal specialization at all... "necromancer" should be summoner + rogue or something like this. And summoner + cleric should be something like "Drayad" or smth like this.

Texas

Noaani wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Summoner-Tank (Blood Warden) may very well end up a better tank than Tank-Summoner (Keeper). We don't know jack right now.

Guardian probably won't be the best tank at everything. Some other classes might have better threat generation, or damage, or a certain ability that helps on a certain boss. Hopefully, there is enough encounter diversity that Guardian isn't always best.

While I agree - this would only really be a good thing if it is fairly easy to swap secondary class. Without the ability to alter your secondary class to suit the content, if the above does happen, it will mean many tanks may simply never see entire aspects of the games content, simply because they picked the wrong secondary for it.

This is also one of the issues with having summoners be jack of all trades - that is only a viable role to have if an individual player can switch easily between each role. If you have a summoner in your group in a DPS role and your tank says they need to step out for 15 minutes, the summoner should be able to put their hand up and say they will fill in. This is only viable if that summoner can change their secondary class to tank while still inside the dungeon.

If that summoner has to say "I can fill in for the tank, lets go back to town so I can respec" then the notion of a jack of all trades class is already lost. As we understand Ashes at the moment, that summoner would need to complete a somewhat extensive quest line to change secondaries - meaning that summoner in the group with the tank that needs to step away for 15 minutes can say something along the lines of "hey guys, I'm a jack of all trades, I can fill in for the tank, just give me 4 days!".

I am of the opinion that this is why Intrepid have taken so long to talk about the summoner - the very concept of the class is at odds with the desire to make it hard to change your secondary.

They haven't said anything, but I was envisioning that it's an involved quest (multiple days) to unlock a secondary, but then to swap you'd just need to go to a town and pay a fee. So you might not be able to fill for the 5 min afk tank, but for "the tank isn't going to make it tonight" sort of situation.

Aszkalon

How to make a Class even more unique than it actually is ?

Bard will be able to do things only a Bard can do. I personally hope for AWESOME AoE-Effects with the Music-Instruments.

Summoner will be the only Class available with "Summons" who may/hopefully are able to fulfill different Purposes. Like tanking, damage dealing - or maybe even a bit of healing.

Since both Classes will have the Sub/Second-Class/Archetype Feature as well - i can't see how they could possibly be fully unique. They will all have the Ability to do a bit of another Class, same as all the other Archetypes.

Githal

Aszkalon wrote: »

How to make a Class even more unique than it actually is ?

Bard will be able to do things only a Bard can do. I personally hope for AWESOME AoE-Effects with the Music-Instruments.

Summoner will be the only Class available with "Summons" who may/hopefully are able to fulfill different Purposes. Like tanking, damage dealing - or maybe even a bit of healing.

Since both Classes will have the Sub/Second-Class/Archetype Feature as well - i can't see how they could possibly be fully unique. They will all have the Ability to do a bit of another Class, same as all the other Archetypes.

Dont you think what you describe for the Bard gameplay can be accomplished by a "BANNER". that is placed in the middle of the battlefield and provide X buffs to everyone around? Why would you put person to do what a banner does?

ReLamas

I think the idea of differentiating support classes from other classes through unique mechanics like separate crowd control (CC) diminishing returns (DR) is intriguing. It ensures that support classes like Bards and Summoners can maintain their effectiveness in group scenarios without being overshadowed by DPS classes.

Having support-specific CC DR could indeed balance out their role in PvP while ensuring they remain relevant in PvE encounters where traditional CC may not be as effective. This approach encourages strategic diversity in team compositions and rewards players for mastering support mechanics.

Furthermore, granting support classes exclusive utility such as cleanse spells adds depth to their gameplay and reinforces their role as facilitators and protectors in both PvP and PvE content. It could also open up opportunities for more nuanced gameplay strategies and synergies within groups.

Overall, I believe these ideas could enhance the gameplay experience by making support classes distinct and impactful in various scenarios. I’m curious to hear more thoughts and alternative suggestions from the community on how to refine these concepts further.

Noaani

Texas wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Summoner-Tank (Blood Warden) may very well end up a better tank than Tank-Summoner (Keeper). We don't know jack right now.

Guardian probably won't be the best tank at everything. Some other classes might have better threat generation, or damage, or a certain ability that helps on a certain boss. Hopefully, there is enough encounter diversity that Guardian isn't always best.

While I agree - this would only really be a good thing if it is fairly easy to swap secondary class. Without the ability to alter your secondary class to suit the content, if the above does happen, it will mean many tanks may simply never see entire aspects of the games content, simply because they picked the wrong secondary for it.

This is also one of the issues with having summoners be jack of all trades - that is only a viable role to have if an individual player can switch easily between each role. If you have a summoner in your group in a DPS role and your tank says they need to step out for 15 minutes, the summoner should be able to put their hand up and say they will fill in. This is only viable if that summoner can change their secondary class to tank while still inside the dungeon.

If that summoner has to say "I can fill in for the tank, lets go back to town so I can respec" then the notion of a jack of all trades class is already lost. As we understand Ashes at the moment, that summoner would need to complete a somewhat extensive quest line to change secondaries - meaning that summoner in the group with the tank that needs to step away for 15 minutes can say something along the lines of "hey guys, I'm a jack of all trades, I can fill in for the tank, just give me 4 days!".

I am of the opinion that this is why Intrepid have taken so long to talk about the summoner - the very concept of the class is at odds with the desire to make it hard to change your secondary.

They haven't said anything, but I was envisioning that it's an involved quest (multiple days) to unlock a secondary, but then to swap you'd just need to go to a town and pay a fee. So you might not be able to fill for the 5 min afk tank, but for "the tank isn't going to make it tonight" sort of situation.

This kind of thing may well end up being how they do it, but even just this makes the notion of taking a jack of all trades based class kind of a last resort. If I am looking for a group and I have a tank, a bard, a cleric and four DPS, if I have to decide between a fifth DPS of a jack of all trades in a DPS role, I opt for the additional DPS. The only way I take that jack of all trades when there is an option to not take them is if they are able to change their role while out running content.

They are essentially a second rate {whatever role they are spec'd in to} if they can't change that role on the fly. Being able to change their role is literally the point of a jack of all trades.

This isn't me having a go at anyone (not sure if it comes across as that or not), it is simply another of those contradictions in this game that I have talked about many, many times.

A jack of all trades class that is unable to change their role as needed is just begging to be meme'd.

Noaani

Githal wrote: »

Aszkalon wrote: »

How to make a Class even more unique than it actually is ?

Bard will be able to do things only a Bard can do. I personally hope for AWESOME AoE-Effects with the Music-Instruments.

Summoner will be the only Class available with "Summons" who may/hopefully are able to fulfill different Purposes. Like tanking, damage dealing - or maybe even a bit of healing.

Since both Classes will have the Sub/Second-Class/Archetype Feature as well - i can't see how they could possibly be fully unique. They will all have the Ability to do a bit of another Class, same as all the other Archetypes.

Dont you think what you describe for the Bard gameplay can be accomplished by a "BANNER". that is placed in the middle of the battlefield and provide X buffs to everyone around? Why would you put person to do what a banner does?

Why would you use a "banner" when instead you can use a bard?

Banners are WoW's (and a handful of other games) way of trying to implement functionality similar to what other games have with bard classes, but without trying to sell the notion of a class dedicated to buffing to their playerbase that very clearly do not understand that concept.

Githal

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

Aszkalon wrote: »

How to make a Class even more unique than it actually is ?

Bard will be able to do things only a Bard can do. I personally hope for AWESOME AoE-Effects with the Music-Instruments.

Summoner will be the only Class available with "Summons" who may/hopefully are able to fulfill different Purposes. Like tanking, damage dealing - or maybe even a bit of healing.

Since both Classes will have the Sub/Second-Class/Archetype Feature as well - i can't see how they could possibly be fully unique. They will all have the Ability to do a bit of another Class, same as all the other Archetypes.

Dont you think what you describe for the Bard gameplay can be accomplished by a "BANNER". that is placed in the middle of the battlefield and provide X buffs to everyone around? Why would you put person to do what a banner does?

Why would you use a "banner" when instead you can use a bard?

Banners are WoW's (and a handful of other games) way of trying to implement functionality similar to what other games have with bard classes, but without trying to sell the notion of a class dedicated to buffing to their playerbase that very clearly do not understand that concept.

Because if bard is built with mass spells for buffs - then he will be same as a banner.
If they want to make the class be buffer he will need all his spells to be single target. Like:
reset single target cd's, increase target atk speed or dmg, increase target atk range, and stuff like this. Even like this i doubt the class will be fun to play, but at least he wont be a "banner".

Noaani

Githal wrote: »

Because if bard is built with mass spells for buffs - then he will be same as a banner.

If ranger was built with arrows for damage - then he will be the same as a bow.

What you seem to be missing is the basic concept of what makes a class in a non-WoW game. Classes are not built around just one thing - a bard isn't just a beacon of buffs eminating around them. Sure, they have that, but they are also many other things as well - just as a ranger isn't just arrows.

Here, this is a list of the abilities of one of the two bards in EQ2.

Melee Attacks

Damage (mental) + decrease power: Sandra's Deafening Strike (1)
2 hit chain (mental): Ceremonial Blade (11)

Back/Flank Melee Attacks

Damage + debuff all magic resistances: Dancing Blade (5)
Damage + debuff studied enemy's trauma mitigation: Sinister Strike (5)

Stealth Melee Attacks

Damage + debuff INT: Night Strike (2)

Ranged Attacks

Damage (mental spell): Perfect Shrill (3)
Encounter damage (mental spell): Painful Lamentations (15)
2 hit chain + ending stifle: Singing Shot (16)
AOE Damage Max Targets 8(mental spell): Thunderous Overture (26)
Encounter Damage (mental spell) + group gain power: Tap Essence (28)
Encounter Damage + DoT (mental spell) + debuff WIS: Chaos Anthem (32)

Debuffs

Stun + restun if low con: Cheap Shot (4)
Debuff mental resist + snare(5% break): Depressing Chant (7)
Debuff defense + loses health+power when losing power + reduces casting speed + does minor damage: Vexing Verses (8)
Snare(breakable) and debuff magic resist, chance of root: Trick of the Hunter (20)
Charm (short): Bria's Entrancing Sonnet (20)
Mesmerize: Lullaby (50)
Lower damage of next spell/combat art, remove AE Auto-attack of target for duration: Countersong (80)

Encounter Debuffs

Debuff STR and AGI (maintain cost): Disheartening Descant (19)
spell resistances (maintain cost): Zander's Choral Rebuff (35)
Interrupt + blur vision of encounter around target, chance of knockdown of target (free, instant cast): Breathtaking Bellow (40)
Debuff Debuff AGI + STR + INT + WIS, spell+physical offensive skills, focus + aggression (maintain cost): Demoralizing Processional (55)

Constant Group Offense Buffs

+Attack Speed: Allegretto (14)
Mental damage chance on hitting with a hostile spell proc: Aria of Magic (22)

Short Group Offense Buff

+Int and mental damage on hitting with a hostile spell proc: Perfection of the Maestro (58)

Short Single Target General Buff

increased ability reuse speed: Jester's Cap (65)

Constant Group General Buffs

+INT +WIS +AGI: Raxxyl's Rousing Tune (2)
+Casting Skills +Focus +Aggression: Song of Magic (3)
+Movement Speed out of combat (scout's): Pathfinding (4)
+Power regeneration: Bria's Inspiring Ballad (13)
+Movement Speed out of combat (bard's superior, obsoletes Pathfinding): Selo's Accelerando (13)

Constant Group Defense Buffs

+Defense Skill: Graceful Avoidance (18)
Threat Reduction For Non-Fighters: Alin's Serene Serenade (24)
+Health regeneration +Max HP: Rejuvenating Celebration (30)
Short hostile spell absorb/reflect buff on being hit by non-physical hostile spell proc: Requiem of Reflection (52)

Constant Raid Defense Buffs

+Arcane Resistance: Arcane Symphony (20)
+Elemental Resistance: Elemental Concerto (44)

Hate Control

Lower Hate: Evade (6)

Constant Self General Buffs

Stealth: Shroud (1)
Prevent AOE Melee/Ranged Attack: Singular Focus (1)
+AGI + Elemental, Arcane, Noxious mitigation, + base avoidance and mental damage on taking melee/spell damage proc: Daelis' Dance of Blades (13)

Constant Self Epic Buff

+Aria of Magic and Perfection of the Maestro: Ayonic Inspiration (80)

Misc

Track: Tracking (1)
HO Starter: Lucky Break (5)
Group Evac: Escape (25)
Damage + stun vampire: Dreadfang (35)
Damage and heal self on hitting vampire: Thirsting Veil (35)

Fun

Play Melody: Rousing Celebration (20)
Disguise: High Elf: Disguise: High Elf (Troubador) (40)
Pulsing Aura Visual Effect: Brusco's Flavorful Aura (50)

A few notes with that though - these are only the abilities that are inherent to the class, the abilities you just get. There are also many more abilities that you can spec in to via the games AA trees (multiple trees, each with different branches). You would generally add another dozen or so abilities to that list via AA's.

I've broken each ability down to it's general type, and given the level at which a player first gains access to that ability. All abilities are upgraded at later levels, so once you have an ability, it remain viable throughout the level range.

But sure, let's just use banners.

Aszkalon

Githal wrote: »

I am confident the Bard is able to do much more than just a Banner, though ... ...

MissionCreep

It has sounded at times like energy/mana can be tight and the Bard is expected to be an important part of any group because he does mana regen. A cleric/healer but for your blue bar instead of your red bar.

The problem with that is, games where you are resource-starved suck.

It's still very early and still not in NDA free testing to confirm anything. And even if true, that may not be the case by the end of A2 (although I guess A2 doesn't really end until launch).

Noaani

MissionCreep wrote: »

The problem with that is, games where you are resource-starved suck.

To me, it depends on a few things.

First of all, games with resources but where those resources are so plentiful you don't need to think about them - that is just stupid.

Being out of resources isn't overly fun - however that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Being out of HP sucks, but we don't complain that mobs take HP and healers provide more for us. Rather, we accept that, and are generally thankful for our healers.

To me, combat resources like mana can and should be similar to this. Sure, it isn't fun when they run out, but as long as that doesn't happen too often it isn't a problem. From there, when you have a bard with you that makes it so you can not run out of those resources for even longer, you are greatful for having that bard there.

If done well, this kind of thing absolutely can be a net positive for the game, even if sometimes running out sucks.

Veeshan

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

And also for me the word "support" does not mean "buffs".
For me it means filling gaps where the group is lacking. Like support the team in different situations by different ways so the group go forward. So a support should be a jack of all trades

This isn't what the support role is though.

The support role in MMORPG's has been a specific thing since the 90's. You don't get to just make your own defintion up.

By your definition, if a group doesn't have a tank, then a tank is a support role as it is filling a gap that the group has.

Jack of all trades is also a role that a small number of MMORPG's have had since the 90's, and is distinct from the support role. The jack of all trades is often filled by a pet class in the very few games that have it, though not always.

And modern day MMO everyoen a jack of all trade -.- Like modern WoW every class doesnt everything pretty much -.-

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

And also for me the word "support" does not mean "buffs".
For me it means filling gaps where the group is lacking. Like support the team in different situations by different ways so the group go forward. So a support should be a jack of all trades

This isn't what the support role is though.

The support role in MMORPG's has been a specific thing since the 90's. You don't get to just make your own defintion up.

By your definition, if a group doesn't have a tank, then a tank is a support role as it is filling a gap that the group has.

Jack of all trades is also a role that a small number of MMORPG's have had since the 90's, and is distinct from the support role. The jack of all trades is often filled by a pet class in the very few games that have it, though not always.

And modern day MMO everyoen a jack of all trade -.- Like modern WoW every class doesnt everything pretty much -.-

Yeah, that is also a mistake imo - though I understand why developers would go that way.

Githal

Veeshan wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

And also for me the word "support" does not mean "buffs".
For me it means filling gaps where the group is lacking. Like support the team in different situations by different ways so the group go forward. So a support should be a jack of all trades

This isn't what the support role is though.

The support role in MMORPG's has been a specific thing since the 90's. You don't get to just make your own defintion up.

By your definition, if a group doesn't have a tank, then a tank is a support role as it is filling a gap that the group has.

Jack of all trades is also a role that a small number of MMORPG's have had since the 90's, and is distinct from the support role. The jack of all trades is often filled by a pet class in the very few games that have it, though not always.

And modern day MMO everyoen a jack of all trade -.- Like modern WoW every class doesnt everything pretty much -.-

Modern wow design is the biggest BS. They trying so hard to make every class the same that all classes lost their uniqueness. WOTLK wow class design was hundred times better than modern approach.

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