Idea copied from an old game, one of my all time favorites that could fit ashes perfectly.

In a dev post talking about PvP i kinda mentioned this idea but I've been thinking about it a lot sense then so I'm shooting my shot on this concept in a little bit more detail.

SOE, one of their earliest games was Infantry Online which was so good it was one of the few things that could take me away from playing starcraft at that time.

Infantry online hosted a bunch of game modes but there was one that I fell in love with, and think the concepts for it fit perfectly into Ashes. And that was with their CTF Extreme mode.. I’m going to try my best to explain the concept behind this game mode and how it can fit into Ashes.

CTF Extreme hosted I think a max of either 100 or 200 players on a map that had a middle area with bridges going north, east, south, and west most of the land on these islands were big hollow bases each with a neutral flag in the middle. The game started with players dropping into random areas and scouring to grab whatever flag(s) they could get.
Other islands were connected by bridges in the corners (NE, SE, SW, NW) with resources for Medics and Engineers.
Players could also create private teams to go against the public teams.
There are other things in the game that may or may not fit into ashes like the game saving your money you get from finishing matches and killing players and a loadout you must customize using the money you make in game.

Picture the idea of an NPC who could teleport you to what would be the map/arena you play on. You get thrown into a random team and put into a hub that is pvp free and enter the arena when you’re ready as well as respawn there.

Private teams formed by guilds could use this game mode to poach people who they like on public teams and practice group PvP with other allied guilds by getting on the same team.

Using the server tech, they could create instances each of which generate a name just like a server listing when you login. You basically get a server listing while in game that is shared cross server (the actual servers you play on) allowing a larger pool of players to mingle with each other while allowing bigger premade teams to pick and choose where they go based on open player slots.

As for matches themselves, give them a whole 2 hours before the game ends itself and another starts if no one captures all the flags, record all the data and give performance rewards to whoever was in that instance based on what they done. This way people can come and go from matches without finishing them and screwing over their team or themselves as players will come and go as the match progresses

Whatever PvE stuff like collecting resources for Medics and Engineers could be replaced by using whatever features you have planned for Ashes. All the siege stuff they have (maybe do new world style of resource collection in PvP to build of siege equipment) and stick the bulk of the PvE harvesting stuff away from the high traffic PvP areas of the map.

Personally I would like to see this and the whole thing has it's own currency system. the bag you have on you and your bag in the area are separate, consumables you need are bought there from an NPC vendor and disappear if you leave with them or moved to a stash (private locker/stash inside the neutral area) keeping outside and inside items separate. also list cosmetics and other stuff that can be mailed to the player upon purchase so people have rewards to take outside of the arena and show off the actual MMO world

this is a great alternative to wars for players, a lot of PvP oriented players are going to want more PvP then Wars and simple Arena combat. New World kind of shares this dynamic all your PvP is either Wars or 20v20 and the 20v20 they have is always one side getting stomped into the ground by the other. this game mode would clear a lot of that up with the separate teams holding their own flags while picking and choosing who to go after. The top dogs who gather all 4 flags will have to face the wrath of hundreds of players for 30 seconds or whatever in order to win. and if they get run over they at least get a boosted score for holding time.

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Mag7spy

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is the issue you are so stuck wanting L3 and AoC is not L3, issues and how the game played are going to be different in AoC. AoC isn't going to go down the round of extreme niche for no reason so it dies off.

Mag, this argument makes literally no sense in this context, when I said multiple times that I want arenas to be super limited exactly because I know what happens when they are not as limited. L2 had 5 (iirc) hours of arena every day during prime-time. Imo that's waaaay too much.

In other words, I literally want the opposite of what L2 had, so no, this is not the case where I want L3. This is the case where I dislike instanced content, as I've always had. I dislike it when it's pve and I dislike it when it's pvp.

My argument makes perfect sense and you aren't grasping it, you point doesn't really stand as there is cause and effect. Older games had less content to do, and less importance on it that extends to owPvP. Saying people are in arenas in a older game does not match AoC. Issues L had will not match AoC the content loop is completely different.

You make content to attract people to do that, you don't remove content because you are worried people will do it. Your worry for taking away from OWPvP doesn't make much sense, as progression is tied to open world pvx content + around the content being important as well as fun.

In short your fear of people not doing owPvP in AoC doesn't really seem to be founded based on the content loop. There will most likely be more people trying to avoid pvp than ones that will only want to pvp in the arena.

Even if for some strange reason 50% of people didn't do any owpvp and only did arena (obviously an exaggeration just for that point). The devs design had failed and they need to rework it and change the design for owPvP and such to be more appealing to players.

You going down this road on adding mobile mechanics when people can and can't do content is one of the absolute worse things to do in a game, forcing everyone into more pvp just for arenas is going to push more people away from the game, removing arena style gameplay that is based on fun and not actual gear progression has no benefit except for killing content in the game.

Ace1234

@Ludullu_(NiKr)

Whats better,

A- certain people not playing AOC at all (and thus not playing in the open world) because they are salty AOC limits their preferred content type
B- those same people playing AOC arenas occasionally and also playing open world content when they feel like it?

Because I can tell you there are players who would be salty enough to just not play AOC if it doesn't give them the option to play how they want, so at that point you are choosing between A or B.

And to clarify, this isn't about the "this game isn't for you then" argument like some people might want to derail the discussion towards, because that only applies when the designers have to choose between pleasing one side or another, and it does not apply when they have the ability to please multiple types of players through the design.

Apok

@Mag7spy I'm not to familiar with L2s arena, where you incentivized to run it for gear or did people do it for the fun of it

Mag7spy

Apok wrote: »

@Mag7spy I'm not to familiar with L2s arena, where you incentivized to run it for gear or did people do it for the fun of it

Not saying that is the case I'm bringing up multiple points that can be a reason. The idea is there was was not enough of a reason to partake in open world content to the point people can focus on arena. Or things in place that prevent people being to more freely pvp.

Veeshan

One of the more memorable things from old games i had that dont exsist anymore are fake walls/floor traps.

Back in Everquest days alot of the places had fake walls sometime u couldnt tell the difference aother times there be slight hints like it look like it out of place slighly finding the qeynos sewers in EQ but noticing a wall slightly off and u decide to walk through if a like wtf moment ohh what have i stumbled across (In the first case it was getting lost in the sewers for 45 minutes was a blast)

But i honosty would love to see illusional walls in AoC where they look like walls or floors but there not

dropping through the floor into lower level of a dungeon was intense and interesting especialy since the game had no maps so the dungeon takes a whole new level of interest as u try and find the exit as u stumble about a higher difficult area in most cases

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

My argument makes perfect sense and you aren't grasping it, you point doesn't really stand as there is cause and effect. Older games had less content to do, and less importance on it that extends to owPvP. Saying people are in arenas in a older game does not match AoC. Issues L had will not match AoC the content loop is completely different.

You make content to attract people to do that, you don't remove content because you are worried people will do it.

You realize that these two paragraphs contradict themselves, right?

If you're attracting people interested in arena - they'll be mostly interested in arenas, so they will be mostly playing arenas. And if you allow them to play those arenas as much as they want - they'll do that.

Same as it would've been the case with instanced pve. And on the note of instanced pve

Mag7spy wrote: »

You going down this road on adding mobile mechanics when people can and can't do content is one of the absolute worse things to do in a game, forcing everyone into more pvp just for arenas is going to push more people away from the game, removing arena style gameplay that is based on fun and not actual gear progression has no benefit except for killing content in the game.

Time lockouts existed way before phones had games that could utilize that mechanic. This is not a mobile thing. It's simply a limitation thing to either prevent people from overdoing it, or to funnel people together for better results.

I guess all the sieges and wars should also be changed, cause they're only active during prime-time, right? Cause that's so mobile

Ace1234 wrote: »

Whats better,

A- certain people not playing AOC at all (and thus not playing in the open world) because they are salty AOC limits their preferred content type
B- those same people playing AOC arenas occasionally and also playing open world content when they feel like it?

To me, A, because those people not being in the game means that servers can fit more people who want to pvx, rather than sit in arenas.

You all cope and hope that arena players will magically get pulled into other stuff, but imo it's the same as instanced pve. Anyone who's asking for it, would be spending absolute majority of their time in it, because that's literally what they prefer. That's the whole point of a preference.

Sure, they'll spend some time gearing, just like everyone else, but as soon as they get to a certain point - they'll be arena sitters, because that's the content they came for (if they were appealed to with it). And then if that arena is also cross-server (which has been discussed in the past iirc) - they can literally sit there forever, because arena sitters in other servers will provide them with content.

Apok wrote: »

I'm not to familiar with L2s arena, where you incentivized to run it for gear or did people do it for the fun of it

Both. And I say both because only the top player of a class would get a great piece of gear, while others mostly got enhancement items, so a lot of people sat in arena just because they liked 1v1 limited-buff pvp.

And with Ashes also having those enhancement items as rewards for arena - people will 100% minmax the shit out of arena farming. And if arenas are unlimited, that means this minmaxing can take all of their time. And god forbid those items can be traded, cause ooooohhh boi, there'd be literal arena farms if that's the case.

And L2's rewards were already a pull for players even before the gaming culture became super singular and ego-centered. These days everyone wants to prove themselves as the best pvper and want the pvp arena to be as equalized as possible too (because this makes it easier to get into it asap).

Texas

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Same as it would've been the case with instanced pve.

This is the only argument that needs to be made. It's one of the core elements that Intrepid wants to do differently. I'm not opposed to arena / battleground gameplay in general, but it belongs in this game as.much as a dungeon queuing system does.

Arya_Yeshe

The main post is too long, i will copy paste to chatgpt and tell it to summarize for me

The developer is proposing a new PvP game mode inspired by their fond memories of Infantry Online's CTF Extreme mode. This mode accommodated up to 100 or 200 players on a map with large, hollow bases containing neutral flags. Players would drop into random areas, gather flags, and engage in PvP across connected islands with strategic resources. They envision incorporating this concept into Ashes, allowing for private team formations and cross-server instances to maximize player interaction. Matches would be time-limited (2 hours), with rewards based on player performance. The proposal emphasizes separate PvE elements to support PvP gameplay dynamics and introduces a unique currency system for in-game transactions. Overall, it aims to offer a robust alternative to existing PvP formats in MMOs like Ashes and New World.

Thank you, ChatGPT!

Well, I think this idea is a waste of time in Ashes, it is a whole new game mode while there's so much to do, so much details about the core systems no one knows about. Also, there's no much point in playing this, it's not real pvp a not real pve either, also makes no sense in node stuff

However, this idea about be useful as an event in the node wars, and then it would make sense and be fun

Ace1234

@Ludullu_(NiKr)

You all cope and hope that arena players will magically get pulled into other stuff, but imo it's the same as instanced pve. Anyone who's asking for it, would be spending absolute majority of their time in it, because that's literally what they prefer. That's the whole point of a preference.

I don't think it would require magic to get players to bounce between content types, I would say its pretty common for players to change moods and play different types of things based on their mood. There would be a lot of players who would play both arenas and the open world, and who would be pretty salty if the game didn't let them play arena pvp when they want to play it.

Ludullu

Ace1234 wrote: »

I don't think it would require magic to get players to bounce between content types, I would say its pretty common for players to change moods and play different types of things based on their mood. There would be a lot of players who would play both arenas and the open world, and who would be pretty salty if the game didn't let them play arena pvp when they want to play it.

As there'll be waaaaay more salty instanced pvers when they learn that Ashes doesn't just give them pve content on demand.

Want to fight in an arena? Go to an open world one and do that. Want to fight a boss? Go to an open world one and do that. All's equal.

Mag7spy

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

My argument makes perfect sense and you aren't grasping it, you point doesn't really stand as there is cause and effect. Older games had less content to do, and less importance on it that extends to owPvP. Saying people are in arenas in a older game does not match AoC. Issues L had will not match AoC the content loop is completely different.

You make content to attract people to do that, you don't remove content because you are worried people will do it.

You realize that these two paragraphs contradict themselves, right?

If you're attracting people interested in arena - they'll be mostly interested in arenas, so they will be mostly playing arenas. And if you allow them to play those arenas as much as they want - they'll do that.

Same as it would've been the case with instanced pve. And on the note of instanced pve

Mag7spy wrote: »

You going down this road on adding mobile mechanics when people can and can't do content is one of the absolute worse things to do in a game, forcing everyone into more pvp just for arenas is going to push more people away from the game, removing arena style gameplay that is based on fun and not actual gear progression has no benefit except for killing content in the game.

Time lockouts existed way before phones had games that could utilize that mechanic. This is not a mobile thing. It's simply a limitation thing to either prevent people from overdoing it, or to funnel people together for better results.

I guess all the sieges and wars should also be changed, cause they're only active during prime-time, right? Cause that's so mobile

Ace1234 wrote: »

Whats better,

A- certain people not playing AOC at all (and thus not playing in the open world) because they are salty AOC limits their preferred content type
B- those same people playing AOC arenas occasionally and also playing open world content when they feel like it?

To me, A, because those people not being in the game means that servers can fit more people who want to pvx, rather than sit in arenas.

You all cope and hope that arena players will magically get pulled into other stuff, but imo it's the same as instanced pve. Anyone who's asking for it, would be spending absolute majority of their time in it, because that's literally what they prefer. That's the whole point of a preference.

Sure, they'll spend some time gearing, just like everyone else, but as soon as they get to a certain point - they'll be arena sitters, because that's the content they came for (if they were appealed to with it). And then if that arena is also cross-server (which has been discussed in the past iirc) - they can literally sit there forever, because arena sitters in other servers will provide them with content.

Apok wrote: »

I'm not to familiar with L2s arena, where you incentivized to run it for gear or did people do it for the fun of it

Both. And I say both because only the top player of a class would get a great piece of gear, while others mostly got enhancement items, so a lot of people sat in arena just because they liked 1v1 limited-buff pvp.

And with Ashes also having those enhancement items as rewards for arena - people will 100% minmax the shit out of arena farming. And if arenas are unlimited, that means this minmaxing can take all of their time. And god forbid those items can be traded, cause ooooohhh boi, there'd be literal arena farms if that's the case.

And L2's rewards were already a pull for players even before the gaming culture became super singular and ego-centered. These days everyone wants to prove themselves as the best pvper and want the pvp arena to be as equalized as possible too (because this makes it easier to get into it asap).

You are trying to skew it in a way and not understanding the point I'm making. Because you already convinced yourself arenas bad no matter what and force people to do more pvp than normal. This is why post get so long cause you are trying to find a way out to think you are right and making me repeat past points again.

Where do you see in these post people talking about gaining gear or such or creating reasons people need to do arena towards any kind of progression or influence on systems in the world. None clearly you are taking my point about attracting people to content and removing the context to fit your own narrative.

That is a mobile mechanics 100% you want people to do it a limited amount of times. I'm not trying to argue the prime time thing because for you that doesn't make your argument make any kind of sense since you want people pvping. But you have arenas going on prime time which makes your whole point not make sense. The core of it is you just don't want people to do arena.

I'm going bold this point, as this is just you being disingenuous at this point. Wars and sieges happen during prime time because of the consequences and giving people plenty of warning and ability to respond than being offline raided. You trying to make this point again proves what i said that you have 0 point or reasoning for this. You just don't like arena and aren't making any kind of argument but feelings.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

You just don't like arena and aren't making any kind of argument but feelings.

You are the one who keeps thinking that I'm trying to come up with arguments.

From the very start I simply said "I don't want people to sit in instances". You obviously do. Great. That's your feedback to Intrepid. I gave mine and then spent 1.5 pages explaining why I gave that feedback.

There's never been any argument outside of "I don't want people to be in instances", because there doesn't need to be one for a preference.

Mag7spy

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You just don't like arena and aren't making any kind of argument but feelings.

You are the one who keeps thinking that I'm trying to come up with arguments.

From the very start I simply said "I don't want people to sit in instances". You obviously do. Great. That's your feedback to Intrepid. I gave mine and then spent 1.5 pages explaining why I gave that feedback.

There's never been any argument outside of "I don't want people to be in instances", because there doesn't need to be one for a preference.

My whole point is most people are not going to be sitting in arena instances all day. Issues with L2 do not make sense to relate them to AoC. Issues in L2 with people doing arena is more of a lack of content / PvP issue.

And there is no reason to take like infinite spots of land for arenas pointlessly to have it in the open world as well.

Your points are not strong for your feedback it is akin to feelings. You aren't making solid arguments why people are going to be in area over gearing and protecting their land, and owpvp events. Which should be the bare minimum for you to be making a argument with feedback.

To repeat this extra again, saying L2 had a issue does not mean there is a issue with arenas, that means there is a issue with how the OWpvp content worked and game design in general.

Mag7spy

Also if you get gear, rewards or anything along those for character growth arena in L2, your whole argument actually makes 0 sense for AoC.

Edit* in fact doing a search shows you get items from arena in L2 connected to character growth from what I see.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Your points are not strong for your feedback it is akin to feelings. You aren't making solid arguments why people are going to be in area over gearing and protecting their land, and owpvp events. Which should be the bare minimum for you to be making a argument with feedback.

If Intrepid cared about only super in-depth totally logical feedback - they'd never do polls as a form of feedback. But they do. So me saying that I want instanced arenas to be very limited in gameplay time is the same as me voting for a similar choice in a poll.

Mag7spy wrote: »

To repeat this extra again, saying L2 had a issue does not mean there is a issue with arenas, that means there is a issue with how the OWpvp content worked and game design in general.

It's not about issues in L2. It's about issues of an ow game having a choice of not participating in that open world.

As long as there's a choice - people will choose it. And when half of arguments for arenas has been "we need them to appeal to people who like them" - the entire point of that argument is that those players will make the arena choice way more often than any other player. And the more such people you "appeal to", the more people will take up server slots, while not participating in the open world.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Also if you get gear, rewards or anything along those for character growth arena in L2, your whole argument actually makes 0 sense for AoC.

Edit* in fact doing a search shows you get items from arena in L2 connected to character growth from what I see.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas
At the end of each season, a player's cumulative score may unlock various rewards.[14][2][15]

Gear enhancement rewards.[15]
Achievement ranks.[15]
Purchasing power (Currency).[15]
Potentially more granular player health bars.[16]

The enhancement and currency alone will make people grind arena to the max, especially if it's in any way tradeable.

Mag7spy

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Your points are not strong for your feedback it is akin to feelings. You aren't making solid arguments why people are going to be in area over gearing and protecting their land, and owpvp events. Which should be the bare minimum for you to be making a argument with feedback.

If Intrepid cared about only super in-depth totally logical feedback - they'd never do polls as a form of feedback. But they do. So me saying that I want instanced arenas to be very limited in gameplay time is the same as me voting for a similar choice in a poll.

Mag7spy wrote: »

To repeat this extra again, saying L2 had a issue does not mean there is a issue with arenas, that means there is a issue with how the OWpvp content worked and game design in general.

It's not about issues in L2. It's about issues of an ow game having a choice of not participating in that open world.

As long as there's a choice - people will choose it. And when half of arguments for arenas has been "we need them to appeal to people who like them" - the entire point of that argument is that those players will make the arena choice way more often than any other player. And the more such people you "appeal to", the more people will take up server slots, while not participating in the open world.

This is why I keep saying you are wrong as you need to actually progress in game to get further. You can't just spam arena and only pvp to progress meaning you will have to do things in the open world. Effectively you are making it up that too many people will only do arena and it doesn't make sense. People that want to focus on PvP will do pvp content in the game not just arena but might do that more so during down time as I've already said.

As i said before if its only 5% that try to avoid all pvp and only do arena you really shouldnt be complaining about that. More than likely people that only focus on arena gameplay will be a smaller faction and those tend to be more pve types of players. As AoC is PvX you are going to get more pvp types of players and those players enjoy all forms of content but won't be in arena all day even during prime time.

The point people are making is that the game is appealing to the PvX design not the arena gameplay. So it isn't going to take away from the open world content. Though its expected some players will try to avoid open world pvp arenas or not so it doesn't really matter. Arenas actually help get people more into PvP in general and get them more comfortable and learn faster.

Enhancement is the only thing there you can make an argument for power and we know nothing about it. But it doesn't even remotely match L2 from what i saw on some of the rewards you can get from going arena. You can not compare these two things and say there was a issue with L2 so AoC will have the same issue. They are entirely 2 different games with AoC leaning towards much better owPvP. People will be more ingrained to protect their node.

*edit

And if you want to argue for any item at all being removed that can give any kind of power that is the better direction to go for what you believe in. Trying to say no arena or mobile style arena is silly. Lack of content and too much forced pvp would be the death of AoC. Rules need to be in place to give the casual player a breather. And when less is going on some players might do some arena for fun, testing things out, or practice.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

As i said before if its only 5% that try to avoid all pvp and only do arena you really shouldnt be complaining about that.

5% is 50 people. That's more than a whole guild (or raid group) that's getting locked out of a full server by some instanced bois. I don't want that

Apok

Mag7spy wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

@Mag7spy I'm not to familiar with L2s arena, where you incentivized to run it for gear or did people do it for the fun of it

Not saying that is the case I'm bringing up multiple points that can be a reason. The idea is there was was not enough of a reason to partake in open world content to the point people can focus on arena. Or things in place that prevent people being to more freely pvp.

I'm just curious if it's insentivized too much. The way I see it is people in MMO want more pvp. That's where arenas come into play. But they all do even teams vs eachother.

In sense this leads to doing the same thing over and over while foliwng a meta strategy. People complain so instead of fixing the pvp they add gear progression and other rewards that shouldn't be there.

My idea was tried and tested in infantry and it was amazing, plus I think the dynamic gameplay it offers compliments MMOs where the 20v20 is more like how a shooter game is set up.

I bring this up as a way to stop having to add highly insentivized arena play and stop people from grinding it out for hours on end and let it be something people just go have fun with

Mag7spy

Apok wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

@Mag7spy I'm not to familiar with L2s arena, where you incentivized to run it for gear or did people do it for the fun of it

Not saying that is the case I'm bringing up multiple points that can be a reason. The idea is there was was not enough of a reason to partake in open world content to the point people can focus on arena. Or things in place that prevent people being to more freely pvp.

I'm just curious if it's insentivized too much. The way I see it is people in MMO want more pvp. That's where arenas come into play. But they all do even teams vs eachother.

In sense this leads to doing the same thing over and over while foliwng a meta strategy. People complain so instead of fixing the pvp they add gear progression and other rewards that shouldn't be there.

My idea was tried and tested in infantry and it was amazing, plus I think the dynamic gameplay it offers compliments MMOs where the 20v20 is more like how a shooter game is set up.

I bring this up as a way to stop having to add highly insentivized arena play and stop people from grinding it out for hours on end and let it be something people just go have fun with

Regardless of idea i generally view arena as a way to have fun and mess around in, or have some more competitive small fights against other people queing. Which I'd see in like a 4v4, 8v8 kind of thing. Not actually gear growth or such, most people aren't going to b sitting in arena all day it wouldn't make sense.

Child Item