Throne and Liberty Open Beta Itemization Cross-Feedback

Finally open beta means I can talk about things freely. This post might be a little 'sharp' in terms of information, because it's targeted to the Intrepid Itemization team who I really hope will just know most of what I'm talking about. Glad to chat with others and clarify anything that makes no sense because of that, but making minimal effort to start.

1. The droprates are correct now, in the individual sense of how many things you need to kill to get something to drop. (I haven't really fought things below my level so far enough to get any statistics)
2. The gathering is better, respawns are very on-point, the flow of items toward goals is still broken though.
3. Everything in the gear acquisition loop got squashed, but seems likely that someone just came up with a beta-targeted drop spreadsheet, result is pretty meh.
4. Some effort has actually been made to fix the location-flows that was messing with that mini-PoI complaint I had from before, but there's only so much they can do.
5. A lot of enemies still don't drop remotely sensible things, even materially (scorpions dropping Rune Leather)
6. That 10 Green -> 1 Blue stuff is still in there.
7. At least two zones got specifically rebalanced in a way that might imply better itemization incoming.
8. The 'rewards' for holding Regions still suck because they're just more 'white materials you eventually can send up the pipeline.
9. I don't think most people have found where to get any Lithographs in the open world, yet almost all blue gear is now Lithograph (might be a sign that they're moving toward actual crafting and those will just be replaced with other materials, but that's a longshot dream).
10. The heavy focus on growthstone based rewards for enchanting feels a little empty, particularly when you eventually do hit the blue-gear wall, again, possibly just tuned for an accelerated beta.
11. Less deconstruction of gear to get mats for other gear. Could have been removed from beta to streamline or reduce distraction, but feels slightly better, might be permanent
12. The gemstones used to make Accessories are all streamlined into one thing now. RIP the dopamine hit of mining.
13. A lot of stuff can't be sold on the Auction house now.

Opinions:
So, what this beta has let me see/feel is that the better droprate fixes a lot, but not enough. The lack of variety in actual gear is still there, but that's an issue with stats (a game with 4 stats and no elemental damage/defense can only do so much, but it's doing better than I'd have expected). Even if one isn't thinking in terms of being a crafter, there's still a sort of weird 'missing feeling' from not being able to specialize on the Auction House.

It's mostly now closer to the usual 'this is an MMO because you can have guilds' feeling, in this beta. I don't necessarily think this is the longterm intention, it was just really useful study material because this isn't the sort of build a live game normally uses so I would have no way to check responses to it 'raw'.

So, for example, the fact that the wolves can now drop Quality Rune Leather instead of just Rune Leather gives that feeling-hit of 'Oh, I can do/make something with this'. Before, they dropped regular leather, iirc, so you'd have to get 30-50 drops of that to do anything that anyone cared about. Much weaker feeling, and poor droprate.

Also if you don't want leather armor, too bad, can't really do anything with it (fortunately everyone needs at least a belt so it shouldn't affect non-artisans, they still get at least some of the feeling, and the other whole system of giving you boxes that turn into whatever Green Material you want, still works, because you can choose Thread due to having enough Leather, etc). But, as example, spiders don't drop thread (thankfully Mandrakes do).

Goblins drop Green Accessory component crystals sometimes, could probably get a similar positive feeling (I didn't kill many Goblins this run). This, for me, ended up just being a throwaway feeling, but that might be because of my bias against nonspecialized itemization of this type. Basically it 'might as well be a quest'. The game tells me I have to 'check off these boxes to get this gear piece'.

Since it's hard to imagine the Goblins caring about this crystal as much, it doesn't register. Especially because some of their Contract quests are literally stuff like that:

"Kill Fanged Desert Flowers and bring back their Pink Petals for the Tailoring Association."

You get to see the Pink Petal drop on the ground and everything, but it never goes into inventory (this part is fine), just incrementing a counter for it'. So one can try to imagine a tailor that is going to receive these, but you never have to bring them back to town or anything (neutral) so it's easy to just abstract it to being a counter if you're not trying to. It doesn't help that there's no obvious tailor in Vienta.

So, it's a bit better. That feeling of the 11% droprate, of 'getting a drop you were hoping for but not necessarily expecting', or of 'choosing one target location over another because of that 11% chance', but it's still mostly abstracted stuff and Instanced Dungeon drops.

Key Points:
1. That feeling of actually engaging with anything outside of 'walking forward to get more powerful gear' is still missing.
2. Lack of specialization means areas are ignorable until something points you there.
3. Lack of reasonable drop expectations (below BDO tier still) means that it feels easier to just focus on power and interact less with others
4. Relatively poor methodology for fighting bots at the Auction House makes that feel ignorable too (bearing in mind this is, again, probably just a streamlined accelerated beta, but it seems a terrible way to give people a feel for the game overall, that said, crafting is on the way, so maybe they figure people will ignore itemization)
5. I'm not incentivized to go fight Mandrakes for Rare Magithread even though I like fighting them because I can't be bothered to figure out what else I have to kill to actually use it (Blue Lithograph), and a bunch of stuff just drops as whole gear from bosses anyway.
6. Overall, this can work as is, by just changing the Lithographs to specific materials (maybe put in the tooltip that they're used to make X gear if it matters so much) and having those materials drop from the DCNMs and other bosses, and then some form of crafting.

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Comments

Mag7spy

I have like 2350 gs and have not seen a single blue Lithograph drop. Which is pretty crazy. Easier to just target farm the high end dungeons for blue / purple gear.

Azherae

As far as suggestions go, I'm always hesitant/confused, because I don't know why games allow a solved problem to continue, I figure there must be some issue with not wanting to break incentives via having an actual economy...

Whereas that might apply to TL, I'm sure it can't apply to Ashes, so here's the knowledge I have. This is, ofc, just the most basic thing (hence my confusion, I like doing complex design, but I never seem to be at the point where games even reach 'complex design' lately).

In Ashes, when you kill a boar, it should have a chance to drop something like a Boar Flank. Similar things for crab, 'Crab Pincer', scorpions tails, etc etc.

This can stack in regular inventory, or just not. Barely matters. To avoid the pain point of people who have no interest or idea about this, they just fill up main inventory a bit. If you have some item with durability similar to a gathering tool (claw cracker? Skinning/butchering knife) you can use it on the item in inventory (technically just 'use' the item in inv and durability of the tool is lost). Then from there the results go into material inventory.

This lets you have results that are slightly variable, so giant crab -> giant crab pincer -> 1 clawshell + 6 crab meat. Normal crab is similar but only 3 crab meat, etc. This process doesn't have to be done to the crab corpse lying there like in BDO, so a person who doesn't care about deconstructing the crab themselves can just bring them back.

Quest givers can have the excuse of 'wanting to do it personally', so the iconic Boar Asses can be deconstructed, but the item ID isn't wasted. The Quest person wants it but not just the meat for... their own practice? Just want to do it themselves? Whatever. They're telling you to have 3-5 inv slots free and go gather these things for them.

This gives the player types of "Don't care, just happened to get it", "care enough to carry a tool and fill up material bag over time", "coordinated effort", without anyone needing to go outside their comfort zone just because they killed a boar, but the boar still drops something.

I don't think it's worth giving the long explanation about how this helps control the high vs. low level player incentives until I see some relevant indicator, but overall, please don't waste your item IDs and art team effort on Quest Item Only stuff.

Or maybe do, because I somehow after a decade of this haven't learned why things like this seemed to work in the games I play but this doesn't get implemented in most others.

I'll be happier in TL when Heliber/Karnix drop their torn cloaks and my group's clothcrafter takes them apart for shroud-cloth to make Incantation Cloaks and Reaper's Shrouds and whatnot, but I can see how some people just want to go to an instance, hit a thing, get equipment. This particular post is just because I know that at least Ashes of Creation is not aiming for that, so... just in case.

GreatPhilisopher

got to lvl 30 so far after 25 hours , spent the first few fighting the UI and still not fully sure how it works lol

patrick68794

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

got to lvl 30 so far after 25 hours , spent the first few fighting the UI and still not fully sure how it works lol

Very poorly lol the UI is the worst part of the game by far

TheDarkSorcerer

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

got to lvl 30 so far after 25 hours , spent the first few fighting the UI and still not fully sure how it works lol

I cannot stand the UI on console. It's not optimized for console at all unless you have the tv right up in your face. It's very small and the settings only affect chat and gameplay UI, and not UI such as inventory, skills, overall menu's. And the fact that menu's has a mix of stick and directional buttons is driving me crazy.

GreatPhilisopher

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

got to lvl 30 so far after 25 hours , spent the first few fighting the UI and still not fully sure how it works lol

I cannot stand the UI on console. It's not optimized for console at all unless you have the tv right up in your face. It's very small and the settings only affect chat and gameplay UI, and not UI such as inventory, skills, overall menu's. And the fact that menu's has a mix of stick and directional buttons is driving me crazy.

yep everything was small , i was able to make the quests , chat an names above players and mobs bigger and looked a lot better but still feel off + the whole game kinda just feel like we playing as ants from characters to environment ...etc.

the UI is like a lite version of BDO Ui and thats a horrible thing to be

Azherae

Ok, posting this update now on the off-chance that someone else outside my group wants to add data and needs time to check before beta closes. This is the data my group gathered on droprates in a specific check, it's not enough to be conclusive.

TL, like many other games, handles drops by having drop groups per mob, two things from the same group often can't drop together. This can be seen in the rewards UI for their bosses but it seems to apply to normal mobs too.

We checked the droprate for Sand Scorpions, Mandrakes, and Deadly Mandrakes while over level (already got a bit of confirmation of initial theories when below their level).

Reports were basically:
Group 1 Items - Rare Gear, none seen below, none seen above (but obv assume that they at least drop below)
Group 2? Items - Rare materials, 2 seen below, none seen above
Group 3 Items - Weather dependent Rare items, seems the same below or above as long as the weather is active (could be any number of reasons for this, could even be two separate potential bugs if not intended)
Group 4 Items - Uncommon Gear: moderate seen below, moderate seen above (about equal, same 11% or so)
Group 5? Items - Common food ingredient, etc: moderate seen below, moderate seen above

(Group 3-5 pair can almost definitely drop, group 4-5 pair is expected but I don't trust that I was paying full attention and no one else reported it to me, 3-4 was seen at least once)

Most if not all 'over level' tests were done 6-7 levels over most targets.

Also confirmed that the Giant Scorpion still drops something when killed over level, but of four kills, only dropped anything at all once. and I'd definitely guess this drop to be Group 3 or 4 for it.

Didn't bother to collect data on the night vs day droprates, though I wouldn't rule out an effect, none of the mobs chosen have Dusk Madness to make them stronger at night, only Rain Blessing.

(Will edit to expand, or post to follow, this post, with the information on how it feels and opinions, when OBT ends, but I have other testing to do before then, so back to it).

Saabynator

I'm sorry, but shouldnt this be on the forum for their game?

Azherae

Saabynator wrote: »

I'm sorry, but shouldnt this be on the forum for their game?

Could you explain your reasoning for this? Am I leaving out information that would be helpful to Intrepid, or adding unnecessary information?

If your concern is that I won't provide it to NCSoft, I have a different information dump for them.

Saabynator

I got no concerns. It just didnt seem like this had any info for or about AoC. Seemed odd to me, to just on a games msg board, and write about a different game, and what you think about that game. I am not the moderator, so do what you want

I am thinking, that Intrepid follows other MMOs very closely.

Otr

Saabynator wrote: »

I am thinking, that Intrepid follows other MMOs very closely.

You think they have time to play and analyze what those other mmos do?
Just one player might not even get the full picture.
But soon we go to those forums and ask them "Why don't you take example from AoC?"
( maybe they follow closely this forum and read my post

)

arkileo

Saabynator wrote: »

I'm sorry, but shouldnt this be on the forum for their game?

One of the most common through-lines when Intrepid asks for feedback is them asking for examples of what you did and didn't like in other games, so this could be exactly the sort of feedback they're looking for.

Azherae

Back now with the 'conclusions:

1. I definitely had the 'mild irritation' feeling of a long streak with no drop, and started to 'expect' it, and got the next one at just about the right timing.
2. I felt positive toward the feeling of 'choosing not to kill the Giant Scorpion because it would probably not drop anything for me' (and then, in turn, being more willing/happy to help someone else at least by dealing with the adds)
3. The other standard mob variety in spawn conditions and therefore battle conditions did apply correctly and the drops were just often enough to counteract the more challenging situations (Daybreak Shores)
4. Having now read the patch notes and upcoming concepts, I still expect themepark itemization for at least another year, but the methods used to get around the empty feeling this causes might work on me.

Good luck to the Itemization team, as always.

Nemeses

Saabynator wrote: »

I got no concerns. It just didnt seem like this had any info for or about AoC. Seemed odd to me, to just on a games msg board, and write about a different game, and what you think about that game. I am not the moderator, so do what you want I am thinking, that Intrepid follows other MMOs very closely.

I agree, think the OP was just desperate to get point across, regardless where he did it, this had nothing, absolutely nada to do with Ashes, and adding cross-feedback, does not make it so.

arkileo

Azherae wrote: »

1. I definitely had the 'mild irritation' feeling of a long streak with no drop, and started to 'expect' it, and got the next one at just about the right timing.
2. I felt positive toward the feeling of 'choosing not to kill the Giant Scorpion because it would probably not drop anything for me' (and then, in turn, being more willing/happy to help someone else at least by dealing with the adds)

These two points are interesting to me. I can get the frustration of no drops, but if Giant Scorpion guaranteed a drop of some kind, then that could alleviate the frustration of no drops.

Granted, I know nothing about what this Giant Scorpion is. Is it rare, or just a unique mob?

Seeing a rare in WoW, for me, has always been an exciting moment because it guaranteed some kind of loot. It was like finding a free loot box in the wild.

Ludullu

arkileo wrote: »

Seeing a rare in WoW, for me, has always been an exciting moment because it guaranteed some kind of loot. It was like finding a free loot box in the wild.

This does bring up a question. What is more exciting on average: seeing a rare type of the same mob spawn (one where you know it'll drop something nice) or simply getting an item of the same rarity as that mob but from a normal mob?

I've experienced both in L2 because some private servers liked to have x20 and x50 mobs, which would drop some nice loot, while the general game had the design of "grind this mob until you loot the rare items it can drop".

And from experiencing both I'd personally say it felt way better when I looted the item I was farming for, rather than getting the rare mob. But I usually have somewhat of a contrarian opinion on these kinds of designs, so I'm interested in others' opinions.

Saabynator

Otr wrote: »

Saabynator wrote: »

I am thinking, that Intrepid follows other MMOs very closely.

You think they have time to play and analyze what those other mmos do?
Just one player might not even get the full picture.
But soon we go to those forums and ask them "Why don't you take example from AoC?"
( maybe they follow closely this forum and read my post )

Yes, I do. I am very sure, that they follow the launch of other MMOs, and how they play out.

Saabynator

arkileo wrote: »

Saabynator wrote: »

I'm sorry, but shouldnt this be on the forum for their game?

One of the most common through-lines when Intrepid asks for feedback is them asking for examples of what you did and didn't like in other games, so this could be exactly the sort of feedback they're looking for.

Fair enough, it might be. But I doubt it. Again, I am not saying not to post it, thats not my call. I just dont see the play here. They will have to filter feedback from other games as well, I would think. People will say alot of stuff, or experience the same thing, but put verhy different words on it.

But hey, ignore me. You do you

Otr

Saabynator wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Saabynator wrote: »

I am thinking, that Intrepid follows other MMOs very closely.

You think they have time to play and analyze what those other mmos do?
Just one player might not even get the full picture.
But soon we go to those forums and ask them "Why don't you take example from AoC?"
( maybe they follow closely this forum and read my post )

Yes, I do. I am very sure, that they follow the launch of other MMOs, and how they play out.

Then I want to be hired by Intrepid to play those games and give them reports!

Saabynator

Otr wrote: »

Saabynator wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Saabynator wrote: »

I am thinking, that Intrepid follows other MMOs very closely.

You think they have time to play and analyze what those other mmos do?
Just one player might not even get the full picture.
But soon we go to those forums and ask them "Why don't you take example from AoC?"
( maybe they follow closely this forum and read my post )

Yes, I do. I am very sure, that they follow the launch of other MMOs, and how they play out.

Then I want to be hired by Intrepid to play those games and give them reports!

Hahaha, go for it! I dont think they have an actual position just for that. But hell, they might!

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