Not really feeling the whole front flip Dwarfs...

I understand Intrepid is taking its own direction on races and lore for Ashes...Perhaps not trying to fall into fantasy tropes or intellectual property thresholds.

But logically speaking I don't feel a mountain carving and tunneling race (Dünir) would jump flip... "Stoic and stout" seems more rotund, staunch and stocky... a 'regular' jump with perhaps a dodge roll seems a better fit.

(Verbal NDA lifted personal experience alpha tester, So actual hands on impression of the race as it currently being offered)

The islander dwarfs/halflings (Niküa) might seem fine with such athleticism.

I hope Intreprid might already have such details in the pipeline but just not implemented yet.

If not I hope they might reconsider the Jump Flip for mountain dorfs...

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Thoghli Ramheart

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

AyeveeGaming wrote: »

Yes, you are, but most of the Dwarven guilds do not.

And not all things should be done according to the majority, just as a lot of Ashes designs go directly against what the majority of mmo players would prefer - the flips might go against what majority of dwarves want. But it is what it is, and the flips stay

Perhaps a compromise where it is not forced and you can opt into it aye?

Grimtitan

Prepare me some slabs. Time to start carving some grudges into some stones.

If the flip stays, you best hope there is mechanics to pull up group mates onto things, because you will not find this dwarf trying to jump/flip onto of platforms. I will walk my hide everywhere and never jump out of pure principle.

Party members: "Hey we need you up here. . ."
Me: "Sorry guys... It requires a jump. . . and this dwarf don't flip!"

Abarat

Shergrim wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes Dwarves are from Verra and Sanctus; not Middle-Earth.
What a race that lives under those mountains might do is up to Steven's lore; not Tolkien's lore.
We have no clue how much head room the Dünir have beneath their mountains. I am pretty sure that there will be plenty of room for Dünir to complete their flips in the Underground and in whatever undermountain dwellings we encounter on Verra.

You don't know what you don't know.

shitty take as usual
you seem to only care for the devs vision and not what the actual players want..it's a recipe for disaster...is this why you no longer work for activision!?

Wow, i am a semi professional Dygz agitator and even I find this post rude.

Here is an idea. Dont do the flip if you dont like it. Also, you are not paying attention. Dygz is trying to change the game from Steven's vision, literally, more than any human alive today... possibly ever.

Give it a chance. Play it for a bit before you complain. The devs are playtesting this stuff... you are seeing it in a snapshot.

During alpha one, I thought I was going to hate how they visually represented sprinting in the game. I got used to it pretty quickly, then sorta liked it.

Take a deep breath. Alpha 2 will be longer than any of us would like... lets fight about this after we play it for a bit.

Gruaulf_Oakenkeel

Dunir Dwaves dont flip, we stomp. ok ok,, So here is my take as someone who fully embraces the dwarf culture from many genre. I get the argument that this isn't middle earth, but the lore goes way older than that. Dwarves in fantasy are stocky rowdy mountain folk with wee legs. Jumping gracefully would not be in their mind one bit, HOWEVER... a ROLL could be. Think about this, a heavily armored miniature Viking as many would see it, would not be able to leap far, and if they did it would not be the most graceful thing. A roll however makes sense, being able to dodge roll or roll forward to cover thru a small space such as a mine or even roll thru an opponent.. It just make far more sense as a dedicate planned dwarf player and fan. If they want a dwarf to flip around gleefully, make that our island hopping dwarf traitors do that. For the 'Hold, My ax is ready.. but no flipping dwarfs please.

Ludullu

Thoghli Ramheart wrote: »

Perhaps a compromise where it is not forced and you can opt into it aye?

I'm all in support of a toggle, as long as the flips don't go away.

Solmyr

Elves aren't clumsy. Orcs aren't elegant. Dwarves aren't acrobatic. Would there be exceptions? Sure. But a standardized jump animation isn't an exception, it's a rule.

At least make it optional -- or better yet, earnable.

Primarch001

Dygz wrote: »

You are wrong. It's really that simple.
If you don't like it, you can play a game you like.
Players who don't like the game creators create don't have to play the game.
Play games that you like.
If you want to play Middle-Earth Dwarves, play a game in the Middle-Earth setting.

Clearly you are the one that is wrong since everybody in here is telling you so and all the replies telling you so have more likes than any of your posts.
This is a public forum for discussion. Telling people if they don't like it then just go play another game is an attitude that stinks. The devs are literally looking for feedback so they may adjust the game based upon what the general consensus of the community thinks, within reason. Steven has made this quite clear and I believe everybody in here knows fine well Intrepid does pay acute attention to these forums, content creators, and their followers.

Oh, and please stop making posts that quite literally come off as you speaking for Steven...like you know him.
#toxic
#cringe

AyeveeGaming11

Solmyr wrote: »

Elves aren't clumsy. Orcs aren't elegant. Dwarves aren't acrobatic. Would there be exceptions? Sure. But a standardized jump animation isn't an exception, it's a rule.

At least make it optional -- or better yet, earnable.

Make it optional for sure. Hell give it to every race as an option. Give every race night vision that elves have too. Give every race the ability to find to have dragonblood in their veins. Give every race blood of Jinn also. Hell lets give everybody everything and not have any distinguishing characteristics at all. Hell, just make our char at creation just a big grey blob with all these talents. Everyone will be happy then. Lets give everyone fast travel too, and make the nodes all the same, because it wont be fair to have others have different things that you don't have...../s

Uncommon Sense

'Cultural Bias' Dygz? Is that really how you are proving to me that you could jump flip back on the porch?

Are you really just pulling a 'racist' card out....

I'd be more inclined to put it under false advertising or pretense...

It's about as culturaly bias as buying a pick up truck online then going to collect it and finding a pogo stick in the lot...

Don't put non flipping traditional dwarves Dunir on your kickstarter campaign cover pamphlet to attract public funding and backing (like I invested in) and then offer flipping midgets in heavy plate armor without beards and then take the piss as Steven himself said "who knew Dunir were so acrobatic"

This isn't open the box thinking...its more a case of ignorance and pride masking logic and comprehension.

I am almost deceiving myself now that intrepid a purposefully shoehorning Dunir flip jumping because they don't want to animate beard physics and a tasteful dwarf jump (because too hard basket).

I already explained that flipping up an object is nonsensical no matter the race/culture bias...So there is no point implying that reasoning. You can jump up higher on an object and land on your feet normally than front flipping and barely landing on the ground or lower with knees bent in a full squat.

Intrepid have a way out of this nonsensical stance...Give the flip jump to a new "out of the box thinking/pushing the envelope" race like the Nikua or Py'rai and make a statement saying that the Dunir flip was just an in-house development design experiment. Which would still keep all the cool kids happy while also stroking your cultural bias Dygz, if anything you should be more supportive that the Nikua get the flips than the Dunir right? If cultural bias is your prerogative banner.

I am interchanging dwarfs/dwarves/dunir as they all pretty much adhere to a mental expectation standard.

I don't call Dunir dwarves cultural bias...I am trying to maintain a preconceived design integrity formed over decades. Interpid listened to feedback and changed the Dunir model after community feedback which was received well, So its clear that that Intrepid can make make adjustments...I'm pretty certain you were defending the old model Dygz so we can only hope...

Everybody wins if the other new races get the jump flip physics defying acrobatics... except the guy who doesn't want to animate beards... And perhaps the few who think it just 'looks cool' even though its profanely dumb.

Uncommon Sense

Also Dygz, you appear to be hung up the word stoic.
So lets break that down further and look at the 4 virtues of Stoicism...
Wisdom
Courage
Justice
Temperance

The first 3 are fairly self explanatory.... But Temperance is of interest as it implies : Moderation and self-restraint, as in behavior or expression.

Granted it can also be interpreted as abstinence...But what kind of Dwarf would drink and front flip anyway...

Liniker

after reading this I am now a flip supporter

I want to start a movement... "Dunir flips must stay, dunir flips are the way!"

I will no longer support AoC if they remove the flips.

down with the no-flippers!

Ludullu

Liniker wrote: »

after reading this I am now a flip supporter

I want to start a movement... "Dunir flips must stay, dunir flips are the way!"

I will no longer support AoC if they remove the flips.

down with the no-flippers!

Let's goooooooooo

Dunir flips must stay, dunir flips are the way!!!

Uncommon Sense

Liniker wrote: »

after reading this I am now a flip supporter

I want to start a movement... "Dunir flips must stay, dunir flips are the way!"

I will no longer support AoC if they remove the flips.

down with the no-flippers!

The best movement in response to this is a bowel movement after a few beers...

Uncommon Sense

I'd Like to thank Ludullu_(NiKr) and Dygz.

I took some time away from playing Dwarf Fortress, Warhammer Return Of Reckoning, Deep Rock Galactic, We are the Dwarves, Baldurs Gate 3, Dwarfs, and Return to Nangrim to name just a few...

Got back into playing Mario 64 then revisit Galaxy and perhaps Sunshine.

Michael

With enough practice, anyone can flip. Why not a Dwarf?

Srixun

Guess youre going to have to play another race then. ;P

Dygz

AyeveeGaming wrote: »

you sure like making stuff up lol. Standard Dwarven race protocol is not cultural bias, its preserving culture. You are the one pushing to change it. The Dünir speak for themselves on this. And they have stated they are not in favor of it.

Your bias is informing you that Dünir adhere to "standard Dwarven race protocol."
Especially since there is no such thing as "standard Dwarven race protocol".
Should be very obvious to anyone familiar with Ashes lore that none of their Races are "standard".

I haven't asked nor pushed to change anything.
Also...clearly... true Dünir are not pushing for "changes".
Fake Dünir are asking Steven to make changes to his lore.

Dygz

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

'Cultural Bias' Dygz? Is that really how you are proving to me that you could jump flip back on the porch?

Are you really just pulling a 'racist' card out....

I'd be more inclined to put it under false advertising or pretense...

It's about as culturaly bias as buying a pick up truck online then going to collect it and finding a pogo stick in the lot...

Why are you relating cultural bias to whether or not I can jump flip on a porch in real life.
Race and culture have nothing to do with that at all. Might be some agist bias if you think I'm to old to do so.
Might be some body shaming if you think my body shape would not allow me to do so.
But, what people can do in real life is a totally separate and irrelevant topic because Verra is a world immersed in High Magic and real world Earth has no magic.

In the context of this topic, the cultural bias is that all "Mountain Dwarf" cultures would disdain jump flipping and that "Mountain Dwarves" would be incapable of flipping on Verra.
Despite the current reality that all Dünir are capable of jump flipping on Verra.
There is nothing there to argue. That is just plain fact.

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

Don't put non flipping traditional dwarves Dünir on your kickstarter campaign cover pamphlet to attract public funding and backing (like I invested in) and then offer flipping midgets in heavy plate armor without beards and then take the piss as Steven himself said "who knew Dunir were so acrobatic"

Please share the quote from the Kickstarter where it states that Dünir will be incapable of flipping.
Again, that expectation appears to be an assumption based on your cultural bias.

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

This isn't open the box thinking...its more a case of ignorance and pride masking logic and comprehension.

That was some tasty word salad.
Thanks!

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

I am almost deceiving myself now that intrepid a purposefully shoehorning Dunir flip jumping because they don't want to animate beard physics and a tasteful dwarf jump (because too hard basket).

Apparently, you have been deceiving yourself since Kickstarter.
Yes.

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

I already explained that flipping up an object is nonsensical no matter the race/culture bias...So there is no point implying that reasoning. You can jump up higher on an object and land on your feet normally than front flipping and barely landing on the ground or lower with knees bent in a full squat.

Whether it makes sense to you is irrelevant.
Verra is a world with High Magic. What occurs on Verra may not always make sense to people indocrinated by their experiences on a world with no magic.
Currently, all Dünir are capable of flipping. Even while wearing plate armor.

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

Intrepid have a way out of this nonsensical stance...Give the flip jump to a new "out of the box thinking/pushing the envelope" race like the Nikua or Py'rai and make a statement saying that the Dunir flip was just an in-house development design experiment. Which would still keep all the cool kids happy while also stroking your cultural bias Dygz, if anything you should be more supportive that the Nikua get the flips than the Dunir right? If cultural bias is your prerogative banner.

Intrepid inherently has a "way out" because Verra is a world with High Magic, so it all makes sense: Because Magic.
You are the one who is happy to espouse your cultural bias that Mountain Dwarves can't flip.
You have a few ways out:
Play a different game.
Don't play a Dünir.
Have your Dünir refuse to jump.
Hope and pray that Steven acquiesces to your proposed changes to the current design.

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

I am interchanging dwarfs/dwarves/dunir as they all pretty much adhere to a mental expectation standard.

So that they adhere to your cultural bias regarding "Mountain Dwarves".
Yep. You said the same thing I did - with different words.
We agree.

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

I don't call Dunir dwarves cultural bias...I am trying to maintain a preconceived design integrity formed over decades. Interpid listened to feedback and changed the Dunir model after community feedback which was received well, So its clear that that Intrepid can make make adjustments...I'm pretty certain you were defending the old model Dygz so we can only hope...

You wish to ignore that Dünir culture is significantly different than "standard Mountain Dwarf" culture.
We agree. But that is cultural bias. Objectively so. Regardless of whether you agree.

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

Everybody wins if the other new races get the jump flip physics defying acrobatics... except the guy who doesn't want to animate beards... And perhaps the few who think it just 'looks cool' even though its profanely dumb.

That is all irrelevant, but...
OK.

Dygz

Primarch001 wrote: »

Clearly you are the one that is wrong since everybody in here is telling you so and all the replies telling you so have more likes than any of your posts.
This is a public forum for discussion. Telling people if they don't like it then just go play another game is an attitude that stinks. The devs are literally looking for feedback so they may adjust the game based upon what the general consensus of the community thinks, within reason. Steven has made this quite clear and I believe everybody in here knows fine well Intrepid does pay acute attention to these forums, content creators, and their followers.

(argumentum ad populum fallacy)

I guess there was a point in time when the Earth was literally the center of the universe and the Sun literally revolved around the Earth. Because that's what everybody believed so they must have been right.
And, the people who discovered that the Earth revolves around the Sun must have been wrong. Because every one told them they were wrong.

It's Steven's lore.
If he makes it so that Dünir can flip on a world with High Magic, Dünir will be able to flip.
You can want Steven to have Dünir be more reflective of Tolkien/D&D Mountain Dwarves than Steven's homebrew vision of Mountain Dwarves.
It's been 3 years since players began vehemently asking the Dunir designs to be tweaked - including removing the flip. Steven agreed to make the base Dunir appearance thicker and rounder - but, so far, has not removed the flip (nor added a toggle AFAIK).

I'm always going to support Steven's creative vision for Ashes (in spirit) - even when it does not conform with what I want or what I prefer.
That being said...
Everything is subject to change...

Dygz

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

Also Dygz, you appear to be hung up the word stoic.
So lets break that down further and look at the 4 virtues of Stoicism...
Wisdom
Courage
Justice
Temperance

The first 3 are fairly self explanatory.... But Temperance is of interest as it implies : Moderation and self-restraint, as in behavior or expression.

Granted it can also be interpreted as abstinence...But what kind of Dwarf would drink and front flip anyway...

4 Virtues of Stoicism indicates a specific cultural bias:
"Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy that flourished in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome."
I am quite sure that Greek and Roman are not cultures that existed on Verra (or Sanctus), so there should be no surprise that the Dünir philosophy regarding stoicism is not an exact match for the Greco-Roman philosophy.
Highly unlikely that Dünir have any knowledge of the 4 Virtues as they might relate to stoicism.

Moderation and self-restraint could also be applied to running. So, I guess Dünir should also mechanically abstain from running. Same could be said for swimming. Or talking.

Child Item