Stat Calculations

In most MMO's you are discovering in secret how each stat works and the calculations through which to gain an advantage and sometimes sharing those calculations to the public. While this knowledge is important and pivotal the information is sometimes very unobvious, misleading or unshared. I don't know if others would agree but I would like to see a little more depth in explanation of stats and the true effects they have on us. When we are calculating, we as players know the obvious like dexterity is the main stat to physical accuracy and the calculations for physical accuracy. The issue I have is while that is true what are the calculations for how [stat x] impacts [stat y] statistically. Ex. Physical Mitigation and its impact on physical penetration. What are stat caps? What are the TRUE relationships between these stats? While these two stats may have no correlation, I am trying to make the point of stat effects on each other, on gear, on skills and how to calculate these. Is the stat additive or is it going off of the base stat? I like some of the calculations shown with some current spells but would appreciate more clarity.

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Ebonborn

This is actually a good image of explanation being needed. How does 234=23.4? lol Or what the fuck is K? lol I understand that K is .1 but just putting the variable there with no explanation isn't enough.

Azherae

Ebonborn wrote: »

This is actually a good image of explanation being needed. How does 234=23.4? lol Or what the fuck is K? lol I understand that K is .1 but just putting the variable there with no explanation isn't enough.

I'm just really, really hoping that the team understands that if they apply 'K' thinking they can design it MOBA style, in an MMO, what they are going to get is closer to BDO, in a bad way.

Just random pearl-clutching from me, but man am I spooked by that variable.

mfckingjoker

I really like hidden stats, I believe from all of the main stats some values should be hidden and while playing we will figure them out, like wisdom increasing magic crit rate, constitution stun resist etc.

Xeeg

mfckingjoker wrote: »

I really like hidden stats, I believe from all of the main stats some values should be hidden and while playing we will figure them out, like wisdom increasing magic crit rate, constitution stun resist etc.

The problem is that we can't "just figure it out".. There are no combat/dps meters.

Lets say you get an item with +30 magic crit. Did that just add 30% crit? Did it just add 29.8%? Did it just add 2%? If you add another +30 magic crit, did you add another 2%? Or is it now adding 1.5%?

You aren't going to "just figure out" that +30 crit was +2% but +60 crit is +3.5% because of diminishing returns.

Even if they gave us meters and the ability to log and track these things, it's still ridiculous and not what should be expected of players to be good at the game. Other people will figure it out, and then make a youtube video or website and then everyone will just go there instead. Better for the game devs to just show it and not be lazy.

What's the point of getting a new item if it is impossible to tell if it is an upgrade or not?

mfckingjoker

Xeeg wrote: »

mfckingjoker wrote: »

I really like hidden stats, I believe from all of the main stats some values should be hidden and while playing we will figure them out, like wisdom increasing magic crit rate, constitution stun resist etc.

The problem is that we can't "just figure it out".. There are no combat/dps meters.

Lets say you get an item with +30 magic crit. Did that just add 30% crit? Did it just add 29.8%? Did it just add 2%? If you add another +30 magic crit, did you add another 2%? Or is it now adding 1.5%?

You aren't going to "just figure out" that +30 crit was +2% but +60 crit is +3.5% because of diminishing returns.

Even if they gave us meters and the ability to log and track these things, it's still ridiculous and not what should be expected of players to be good at the game. Other people will figure it out, and then make a youtube video or website and then everyone will just go there instead. Better for the game devs to just show it and not be lazy.

What's the point of getting a new item if it is impossible to tell if it is an upgrade or not?

Why don't you hit a mob 100 times and figure out if you had an increase on magic crit or not ?

Obviously if you can't see the dps you do, what I said is pointless, but if you check the streams you can see that when you hit anything it shows how much dmg you've done.

Subjects to change ? I have no idea, but if it stays like this then it's fine.

Although tbf if we are talking about m crit its easy to check the chunk of life u are removing to figure it out but for other things like stun resist or debuff resistance it's much harder to test.

Xeeg

mfckingjoker wrote: »

Why don't you hit a mob 100 times and figure out if you had an increase on magic crit or not ?

This is not enough data to overcome the statistical error. You could have 0 crits in 100 hits, even if you are supposed to get 5% on average. Definitely not enough to detect the difference between 4% crit and 5% crit with an error of .1%. Probably need thousands of data points for that, shrug.

Sure, people can and WILL do this, if they have to. I've done stuff like this in other games, to get an edge, and have a deeper understanding of what items actually work better for my build. But its tedious, and boring, and not fun. I want to play the game, not spend most of my log-in time creating spreadsheets of stats and damage results on various monsters. Been there, done that.

I want the game devs to respect our time and give us this type of information rather than make us do boring/tedious work to figure out what they can easily tell us if they aren't being lazy.

If this is supposed to be a "next generation MMO" then have the best UI and tooltips in the industry.

Ruerik

We have personal damage meters that we will use to figure out the stat changes.

Just keep in mind it takes an obnoxiously large dataset early on, and even then you still only end up with a statistical distribution, not the absolute truth (unless they publish the formula used)

Not only that, but we have to do that for many, many different stats, to get a sense of the curve shape, and where diminishing returns start.

It gets even more (un)fun if instead of smooth curves we see breakpoints, you could end up in a situation where if you have 1301 power, and you get a gear piece to boost your total power to 1315, but it doesnt matter because the next breakpoint might be at 1320 for an actual change to anything. Meaning everything from 1302-1319 is meaningless.

Ebonborn

I’m curious on their side of things what the negatives would be for giving a lot of the information on stats.

Xeeg

Ebonborn wrote: »

I’m curious on their side of things what the negatives would be for giving a lot of the information on stats.

Probably concerned about min/maxers pressuring people to take certain builds because they can mathematically prove that they are better or something. Or its the people who aren't good at math and just want to play the game feel that they are at a disadvantage if other players can figure these things out but they cant.

So they could prefer that a few really grinder no lifers test it instead and then pass on 2nd hand info to the community through websites and youtube videos rather than the majority of the players being able to do it.

Ruerik

Ebonborn wrote: »

I’m curious on their side of things what the negatives would be for giving a lot of the information on stats.

Its the same argument as not showing us health bars, they want to keep immersion as much as possible, and so any "system" should be hidden from the gameplay itself.

In essence, if the ability says "Boosts crit by 200", immersion would imply pushing that button FEELS good. Theory crafters would dilute the immersion by then quantifying numerically just how good that button actually feels.

Bigger numbers put the feels good chemicals in my brain ya know, which is what makes the number investigation worthwhile to me, but a waste of time to many others because they are happy to just push the button.

And as to Xeeg's comment, it will take many no lifers. Without use of a third party app, we are limited to personal log only. Which means to test out a job like Bard, which is support and buffs allies or debuffs enemies, we have to test bard skills on many allies and then ask them to send the log over to us, since our personal log wont show the effect of our bard skill on the ally, and how that buff interacts with other buffs. And then we have to deconvolve that players own stats from the buff to figure out just how much boost the buff actually did.

Ergophobic

Ebonborn wrote:

I don't know if others would agree but I would like to see a little more depth in explanation of stats and the true effects they have on us.

My two cents is that having all of that specific information is just not very useful ... right now.

Unless those stats and systems are specifically what is being tested, there is no need to make it fully transparent. The numbers and relationships between those numbers are not just something that could change; they are something that will change. Even if there ends up being any form of transparency, I'd much rather have it in Beta.

Noaani

Xeeg wrote: »

Ebonborn wrote: »

I’m curious on their side of things what the negatives would be for giving a lot of the information on stats.

Probably concerned about min/maxers pressuring people to take certain builds because they can mathematically prove that they are better or something.

Take it from me - min/maxers are not using that information without checking it.

I've yet to see a single game where the provided information on how stats and such work is 100% accurate. What min/maxers do is check that what they are saying is what is actually happening.

Also, they only way there won't be a meta supplied by min/maxers is if all builds are basically equally viable.

Myosotys

If the calculations are opaque, it's not just a question of complicated math. Even if the maths is complicated, there will always be guides to tell you what to do.

It's also because the devs themselves don't arrive at the expected results.

So leaving a margin of opacity gives devs the means to correct inconsistencies and bugs before players discover the problems and exploit them.

Devs should also be allowed to make unofficial updates and do their job as devs. Anyone who wants to know the game's code should join Intrepid.

Sunboy

Im on the immersion side here. Give enough but not to much.

If i need all that info to beat raids its no longer a game, its a math problem.

Ebonborn

@Sunboy I think that the game becoming a math problem is inevitable at the highest levels. I would argue that the game becoming a little bit more of a math problem allows people without python or coding experience to compete with these people more. When you click your character screen or hover over a spell there are already numbers attached. I am just saying give us a book in the bottom right that explains our stats even more in detail. Whether or not you use that is up to you and how competitive you want to be. The competitive people will just gap you that much more if they have this information and you don't. It feels like you guys are choosing to be blind because you think most everyone else is blind. However, if there is one thing I have discovered in MMO's it's that information is POWER. Releasing the information gives less power to the people who are capable of discovering and withholding it from the rest of us. In turn you choosing to be blind is just putting you at a disadvantage until someone decides to release the information and by then you are already disadvantaged.

Ebonborn

@Myosotys Wouldn't you say that since this is going to be Alpha-2 that now is the time for them to put out their information. Whether it's right or wrong will be discovered by us and I am sure they will fix it at that point. If they change or fix something all they would have to do is update us on the changes in a patch note. Now is the time for them to make mistakes and have us test in a testing phase. I would rather discover something now that's fucked then have something wrong later come game time. They can reset a testing phase where someone got an advantage.

Spif

Showing the actual game stats in a tooltip (not just plain text in a tooltip that matches, but a link in the tooltip that pulls the actual calculated damage or effect) is very smart for a game designer. Because hidden shifts in stats are tougher to internal playtest and/or PTR validate.

So when a balance pass gets released the sweaty guys test everything. Then they find out that ability X that was supposed to get a 5% damage increase got a 50% damage increase because someone messed up, and the playtesters missed it. Sweaty test guys now have an advantage until others catch on. Then game balance is screwed until game devs catch on and issue a hotfix or patch.

Stats are also nice for theorycrafting a build. If you don't actually know your crit chance % or how high your crit chance can get, it's really hard to make a build that relies on specific proc-on-crit effects. This means you also need to know if softcaps are a thing for crit chance, where they start, and how much the softcap takes away.

Taleof2Cities

As someone who appreciates both sides of min-max and statless immersion, I can say one thing:

Alpha 2 isn’t going to be the testing phase where there’s a high focus on polish by the Intrepid Combat Team.

It’s more about functionality of the primary archetypes. Indeed, a couple of the primary archetypes aren’t even ready to showcase yet.

Bottom line: Those forum-goers who are eagerly posting in this thread (about getting their hands on precise stat calculations) … should be prepared to be disappointed in Alpha 2 and should be looking forward to Beta.

Ruerik

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Bottom line: Those forum-goers who are eagerly posting in this thread (about getting their hands on precise stat calculations) … should be prepared to be disappointed in Alpha 2 and should be looking forward to Beta.

Still excited.

Clearly the final balance changes wont happen until the polish starts to go on at the end of the alpha phase or into the beta.

But the functional form of equations are not likely to change, just coefficients.
As well as what stats interact with what other stats.

We can still get all the testing framework in place for the future by figuring out the interactions, and later on during beta, and all future balance updates figuring the coefficient changes will then be a very quick thing to do.

TLDR, its still fun, not sure why you think we would get disappointed

Ebonborn

@Taleof2Cities I respect what you’re saying. However, forums are more than just for the present. The idea has been at least shared and seen. My goal for the post is to get this recognized and it was so either way I’m happy.

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