Fixing the Class system

The goal is to change the class system while keeping as much of Steven's vision intact as possible and allowing enough flexibility for the devs to develop something that inspires them without pressuring them to develop something that doesn't while allowing for more design space later on to add new classes or sub classes.

1.) Change the language to first class picked as being the base class, and make it clear this will be your playstyle. The second class could be either archtype or secondary class, though secondary class would be more clear. Call the result of those two decisions the Sub-Class. (I will be using this terminology from here on out)

2.) Remove the double up sub-classes (Ranger/Ranger, Fighter/Fighter). While an interesting idea it only serves to make people feel like stuff was withheld from them when they selected their class, and inflate an already huge number of sub-classes.

3.) Remove any subclass that would be a nightmare to balance or would be redundant either by base classes or other sub classes.

4.) Add more base classes. You have no Gish class (hybrid caster and melee), No Dark/Evil caster, No Holy Warrior, No Druid/Nature caster, no Monk/Brawler class.

5.) Armor/Weapon restrictions determined by base class and sometimes modified by the secondary class either unlocking or locking out different armor/weapon types.(I'll give an example at the end)

6.) Either reduce the level at which you get your secondary class or you should get 1 major passive change/active ability to you class when you make the choice at 25.(I'll give an example at the end)

The Cons:

1.) Less subclasses, like way less, like going from 8 to 3 or 4, this depends on how many base classes they add if any

2.) Longer development time, this also depends on how many base classes they add

3.) I can't think of anything else right now but I'm sure I'm missing at least a few

The Pros:

1.) More possible sub-classes means more design space.

2.) More design space means less design pressure.

3.) More playstyles at the start means more people can find something they like until they get what they want.

Example:

Base Class: Rogue
Secondary Class: Necromancer
Sub-Class name: Edge Lord
Armor: From Medium to Light
Weapon: Unlocks Dual short swords
Active ability: Become incorporeal reducing physical damage taken but increasing magic damage taken. The first creature attacked from stealth cowers in fear for X seconds.

So this feels like a huge change but it isn't. The playstyle is exactly the same, with one ability which could replace a stun with cower mechanic. Visually I'm thinking something like Nocturne from LoL. So more like a Dementor with blades for arms, and much faster.

Edit for clarification: I want to make it clear all I am suggesting is a focus shift to more base classes to facilitate more playstyles at launch, creating some kind of class identity, and make some language changes which will clarify things to most people.

I realize most of you are looking at this as a game that will launch in 2-4 years. That's not what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about 3 months after launch when most people are max level, what a new player experience will be. That's where I am coming from. The game MUST be able to stand on its own no help. They will have no friends to help them, there will be no guides, and what you don't want is someone forcing themselves to play a playstyle for 100 hours only to find out they only get a few aesthetic changes and not the playstyle change they were expecting.

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George_Black

arkileo wrote: »

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

The Irony is I actually understand the system better then they do because they're thinking of the system in a vacuum rather then how all the other systems will pressure people and interact with the class system, and they aren't thinking about how important the psychological aspect of having fun is when people are doing something that is hard, or boring.

How did you come to this conclusion? What makes you think the developers aren't well aware of these things? Hopefully not Steven's disjointed musings over the course of these 7 years. You have a leaked copy of the design doc, I hope?

Man the developers had a ping pong healthbar mechanic for critical hits in the begining and the combat of pre alpha is nothing compared to where we are now.
Also steven has over time become more clear about what to expect from the archetypes and what to expect from the augments to ground some people. But people can also say "well, thst turns out not to meet the standards".
And most recently in a serious responce he said in the AMA that he expects the class/weapon system to be heavily tested and iterated.

The Devs that years ago said that active blocking wouldnt work and that they'd prefer a waterfall blocl chance toggle are no longer with the studio.

The 64 class combo is ambitious and they admitted it. I am sure that they would prefer to change a system that push out something lacking in quality.
You can sit here being all ironic, but that's not feedback. It's just the default personality of the majority of the online kids.

Ludullu

George_Black wrote: »

You should have other priorities in your life in your situation.

Oh, I have them. I haven't been outside for a year because I might get grabbed by soldiers and get force drafted. My lights go out several times a day for several hours, because fuckers keep bombing the power grid. Every air raid siren (which happens every other hour usually) raises my anxiety by a noticeable margin.

And you know what will help with all of that? Not caring about when I might die in a random bombing and instead test an mmo that I want to live in.

It is funny to me that you're here surprisingly often, for someone who's all busy and has real life outside of these forums. And you're here often enough to remember posters, hold grudges or stubborn opinions about those posters and their povs, and also repetitively post about "it's not me, it's everyone else that doesn't know shit about this non-existent game, so Intrepid better only care about what I (and people that have the exact same opinion as me) say on these forums. Cause only us, people with irl time, should matter".

So yeah, I'm gonna be spending every hour of electricity I have in A2 and on the testing section of the forums. So if you thought that you'd somehow be in a company of people who only think like you - think again

George_Black

Calm now...
Learn a skill to help rebuild your country when the war is over, instead of socializing online. Escapism wont help it's just copium and that's not funny in real life.
At times like these you need to get serious because it is literaly a matter of life and death.
I am not being antagonistic and you know the advice is sensere.

Ludullu

George_Black wrote: »

Calm now...
Learn a skill to help rebuild your country when the war is over, instead of socializing online. Escapism wont help it's just copium and that's not funny in real life.
At times like these you need to get serious because it is literaly a matter of life and death.
I am not being antagonistic and you know the advice is sensere.

I couldn't care less what happens after the war, because the war won't end in my lifetime. And I guess you missed the point where me going outside would immediately lead to me going to die on the front, so, no, learning some skill would in no way help me or my country.

Also, I am the one living this life and to me it IS funny, so I'll be the one deciding what I wanna do. And I've decided that I'm gonna be posting sooooo damn much on the forums that you won't even want to go there

I'm gonna be giving a ton of suggestions that don't align with your preferences for this game, because I have the same belief as you do - my preferences for the game are the ones that should be listened to, because I know what's best for the game.

And I am calm. I'm simply explaining my situation to you, because you seem to think that you know better than me what to do with my life and/or my situation.

George_Black

Off topic and it may get deleted or even may get me in trouble, but for 10 years now people have come across me from the african countries, middle east, asian and south american fleeing death.
They said I need a job to help my family back home and I wanna learn X Y Z, barely speaking the language.
I know these people will work hard to get what they want from life.

Ludullu

George_Black wrote: »

I know these people will work hard to get what they want from life.

Ahhhh, and there you go. What they want and what I want are completely different things. I want to test A2 and give feedback to Intrepid to make the best Ashes Ashes can be. And permanently existing on the forums lets me do that

AirborneBerserker

arkileo wrote: »

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

The Irony is I actually understand the system better then they do because they're thinking of the system in a vacuum rather then how all the other systems will pressure people and interact with the class system, and they aren't thinking about how important the psychological aspect of having fun is when people are doing something that is hard, or boring.

How did you come to this conclusion? What makes you think the developers aren't well aware of these things? Hopefully not Steven's disjointed musings over the course of these 7 years. You have a leaked copy of the design doc, I hope?

To quote my self "The devs, I'm sure, have already noticed what I'm talking about." thats literally in the next post I wrote.

RocketFarmer

Well this topic blew up fast.

While my point was it isn’t broken, yet, what will Intrepid do with these “classes” beyond the augments?

They’ve got 64 somewhat cool sounding class names. What else other than augments make that class work?

Do they present some sort of swap out of the primary archetype abilities with abilities in the theme of the class?

Is it a lore based difference?

Do new options open up for your character build out when you enter your class?

Aszkalon

You can't fix what ain't broke ... ... ...

... ... ...

Azherae

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Well this topic blew up fast.

While my point was it isn’t broken, yet, what will Intrepid do with these “classes” beyond the augments?

They’ve got 64 somewhat cool sounding class names. What else other than augments make that class work?

Do they present some sort of swap out of the primary archetype abilities with abilities in the theme of the class?

Is it a lore based difference?

Do new options open up for your character build out when you enter your class?

It basically can't be the latter two, because even if there is a cost to respec, you can still do it without a huge conceptual change (so far as we've been told).

So if I can be a Shadow Disciple today and an Oracle tomorrow, any decisions I make about it have to be based on my build, playstyle, and other similar choices.

I could see a style of development where certain Social Org augments or NPC interactions are different or 'don't work' if you're not the exact right class, but even this would get gamed somewhat. I could 'respec to Oracle just to progress a quest' for example, in that scenario.

Lodrig

nanfoodle wrote: »

I'm a backer and from the start I didn't think 64 classes was possible. I would be impressed with 14-16 classes. That more then most MMOs. Questioning if there is real validity here is not outside the realm reasonable. Most people outside this forum thinks this part of the game seems hinky. I'm shocked more people are not asking more questions.

I agree 64 truly unique classes are not possible and were never promissed.
But 8 meaningfully playstyle different variations on each base archeytpes ARE possible in my opinion. IF they descope to doing just that rather then trying to do 4 times as much with their 4 augments options after picking your secondary. The selection of the secondary is enough customization in my opinion.

Basically I would rather see 1 good solid augment that radically changes playstyle, then 4 bland flavor choices which don't change playstyle and tactics. One augment which changes your kit 40% is better then 4 choices with each change it only 10%.

Basically we have the classic tradeoff dillema, their are three things, DEEP Augments, MANY Augments and GAME DELIVERED PRE 2030, Pick two. And I pick Deep and ontime while jetesoning the many. If your priorities are different then say so, but don't pretend all three are going to be delivered at the rate things are going.

Dygz

nanfoodle wrote: »

Here is where Ashes has failed if you are right. If the majority is your Primary Archetype. Adding names like Necromancer, Magician, Assassin, Archwizard make you think of something grander. So many will be let down. Doing that sooner then later would be idea. If its something deeper and two subclasses make a real class. 64 is allot to make, design and balance. We at this point. Need more information because this does not make sense. Its time to make this make sense for the masses.

Can't please all of the people all the time.
I dunno how it can be that Ashes can have failed when they have a chart depicting what the Class combos are and their labels.
If I recall correctly, we had the Class Combos with no labels for several months after Kickstarter and then the labels for the combos were revealed within the first year.
So... that was clarified sooner rather than later.

Steven never said anything about "real Class".
There is plenty in the wiki for people who wish to understand Ashes gameplay.

I will agree that after 7 years, we should have some better examples of Augment Schools and Augments siginificantly changing some Active Skills than just the examples we got in 2017/2018. Especially since it seems like we won't be seeing Augments in Alpha 2 until 8 years after Kickstarter.

Dygz

nanfoodle wrote: »

I'm a backer and from the start I didn't think 64 classes was possible. I would be impressed with 14-16 classes. That more then most MMOs. Questioning if there is real validity here is not outside the realm reasonable. Most people outside this forum thinks this part of the game seems hinky. I'm shocked more people are not asking more questions.

I mean... D&D would call it 8 Classes and 64 Sub-Classes.
I dunno why you would think 64 "Sub-Classes" is not possible.

Dygz

RocketFarmer wrote: »

What else other than augments make that class work?

Don't we have that same question with Primary Archetype and Active Skills?

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Do they present some sort of swap out of the primary archetype abilities with abilities in the theme of the class?

It's a significant adjustment to existing Primary Archetype Active Skills; not really a swap.

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Is it a lore based difference?

I think we should expect Classes to be represented in Ashes lore.

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Do new options open up for your character build out when you enter your class?

Depends on what you mean by new option.
Because if a Fighter applies a Mage Teleport Augment to their Rush Active Skill, they will then have the option to blink past an obstacle, like a Wall, which would otherwise impede the Rush.

Dygz

Lodrig wrote: »

Basically I would rather see 1 good solid augment that radically changes playstyle, then 4 bland flavor choices which don't change playstyle and tactics. One augment which changes your kit 40% is better then 4 choices with each change it only 10%.

You lost me.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.

Lodrig wrote: »

Basically we have the classic tradeoff dillema, their are three things, DEEP Augments, MANY Augments and GAME DELIVERED PRE 2030, Pick two. And I pick Deep and ontime while jetesoning the many. If your priorities are different then say so, but don't pretend all three are going to be delivered at the rate things are going.

I don't know where you got that tradeoff idea; nor "DEEP" Augments.
We'll have to test it and see.

CROW3

Lodrig wrote: »

Basically I would rather see 1 good solid augment that radically changes playstyle, then 4 bland flavor choices which don't change playstyle and tactics. One augment which changes your kit 40% is better then 4 choices with each change it only 10%.

Agreed, with an emphasis for Cleric and Tank. Augments must significantly transform the base archetype or the core of the 8-man team is going to get boring.

George_Black

It should stand out that out of the 8 archetypes not 1 of them has evil powers. That excludes a massive amount of gaming classes.
Let that sink in.

AirborneBerserker

George_Black wrote: »

It should stand out that out of the 8 archetypes not 1 of them has evil powers. That excludes a massive amount of gaming classes.
Let that sink in.

yes this too. im working on the post have been for almost 4 hours now and im not even half done.

Lodrig

Dygz wrote: »

You lost me.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.

Your being willfully ignorant if you can't understand this.

And your example is emblematic of lazy thinking. You have to postulate a SPECIFC enemy countermeasure produced by 1 opposing archetype for limited time under which a teleport augmented Blitz would seemingly play ANY different then the base Blitz. To call this reaching is an understatement.

No player worth their salt would call that a meaningful change to tactics let alone playstyle because once you think about it for more then a second you remember the barrier is still present and your now trapped and cut off from team mates so in even in your hypothetical 90% of the time you ain't gonna teleport through said wall because you have no escape path. Your still a Fighter with a gap closer which is gonna feel exactly the same as every other fighter, that's what 10% change is, something you don't even need to relearn or alter your play around.

Azherae

Lodrig wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You lost me.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.

Your being willfully ignorant if you can't understand this.

And your example is emblematic of lazy thinking. You have to postulate a SPECIFC enemy countermeasure produced by 1 opposing archetype for limited time under which a teleport augmented Blitz would seemingly play ANY different then the base Blitz. To call this reaching is an understatement.

No player worth their salt would call that a meaningful change to tactics let alone playstyle because once you think about it for more then a second you remember the barrier is still present and your now trapped and cut off from team mates so in even in your hypothetical 90% of the time you ain't gonna teleport through said wall because you have no escape path. Your still a Fighter with a gap closer which is gonna feel exactly the same as every other fighter, that's what 10% change is, something you don't even need to relearn or alter your play around.

But Fighter already has two gap closers, one that explicitly goes over obstacles and one that lunges forward.

If those are also 'tactically the same thing', then there's really not much more than can happen. You'd just end up going back to super simplistic gameplay if you stop taking the nuances like 'goes over walls and ground hazards' into account.

I'm no fan of that example from Steven either, but if we just discount the difference between two skills that both gap close but differently, then we might as well just downgrade all expectations of all the combat.

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