What are your 'class fantasies' for the 64 classes

Part of the discussion over augments and classes hinges on peoples expectations for how a class will work. Most players have a conception of what a Paladin or a Necromancer are mechanically and what they bring to a party composition. And while the primary/secondary archetype model is a overall accurate description of what they bring it lacks the detail or focus that would be a description of a skill kit and how the player would tactically behave in battle.

I'm brainstorming simple tactical descriptions of each class and the core elements of its kit which distinquish it from either the base or secondary archetype. I'm seeking to think of a means by which the characteristics of the base class can be most easily bent to serve the role of the secondary. For example how would a Bard act as a Tank, could the Bard just littlerally be able to take a lot of damage in the traditional sense, yes but that's excedinlgy dull. On the otherhand a Bard that memzerizes oponents and causes them to stop attacking and thus neutralizing their aggression is achiving the goal of a Tank in a Bardic way, AND fuffilling a coherent class fantasy impled by the name 'Siren'. Package that into a short description and you get

Bard/Tank - Sirens are able to produce such aluring performances that enemies at short range are compelled to follow the Siren in a trance state for a limited distance. So long as the tranced arn't attacked they will stop attacking and can be lead away. In this way they controls and nulifies enemy aggression while providing a way to pull apart enemy groups.

Other examples

Mage/Fighter - Battle Mages specialize in touch delivered magical attacks and short range fan blast effects. Combined with the robustness to survive in the front lines of battle the Battle Mage is excellent at confronting clustered frontline combatants who typically lack good elemental resistance.

Rogue/Cleric - Cultists focus on long casting time high impact dark rituals cast while in stealth. Their rituals can empower themselves and allies with short lived temporary Health and lifesteal abilities to unleash in deadly surprise attacks if they can complete their castings before being detected.

Summoner/Mage - Spellmancers summon elemental themed minions which deal elemental damage and can use their minions as the location for creating AoE spell effects by dispelling the minion in a burst of magical energy. Minions felled in battle by the enemy likewise burst making them all effectivly walking magical bombs thrown at the enemy ranks.

What similar class fantasies can other folks imagine?

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Comments

George_Black

I am a pretty vanilla guy in gaming.
Give me human for a race, with medieval looks, even though I am not from northern europe.
And give me a class with melee abilities, with animations that look good on twin swords, 2handed or sword shield.

I want from my class to be able to make a character that shines on the field of battle, mostly on small scale and duels, using a mastery of swords, and the tools to respond to the majority of enemy types, so that I can achieve victory.
I dont care for magic, I dont care for ranged attacks.

I will play the Fighter since it's animations are good enough for what I want. I hope they dont look weird on twin swords.
I will select the meta class combo.

For all those that want a class with more distinct lore and playstyle, like a necro, dark knight, paladin, druit or monk, (scratch monk, unarmed combat is a ridiculous concept for mmos) I would advise you to start conversations, because I dont see how the rigid abilities of the 8 archetypes will manage to change to something that feels unique, even if you borrow a bit of flavour from the other archetypes.

ariatras

Your insights into the potential disconnect between class names and their in-game mechanics are spot-on and raise an important point in the design of complex class systems like the one in Ashes of Creation. The primary/secondary archetype model is indeed a fascinating system that promises a wide array of playstyles, but it also poses challenges in managing player expectations, especially when it comes to iconic class identities.

1. The Challenge of Balancing Class Identity with Flexibility:

As you’ve noted, many players bring preconceived notions about what certain classes, such as Paladins, Necromancers, or Summoners, should embody. These expectations are often shaped by years of exposure to various fantasy settings, games, and systems like DnD or other MMOs. When designing a system that allows for such broad class customization, it becomes crucial to strike a balance between maintaining the core identity of a class and allowing for meaningful, yet not overwhelming, variation through secondary archetypes.

For example, the idea of a Summoner is traditionally tied to a DPS-centric role, where the primary function is to call forth and control creatures that deal damage. The introduction of a secondary archetype like Tank creates an interesting design challenge: How do we incorporate tanking elements without fundamentally altering the Summoner’s identity?

2. Integrating Secondary Archetypes Without Overwriting the Primary Role:

Steven Sharif has mentioned that secondary archetypes won’t drastically change your primary class pick, which suggests that the core mechanics and fantasy of your base class will remain intact, even as you add new layers to it. This is a delicate balancing act. The goal is to allow the secondary archetype to add flavor, utility, and slight role-shifting capabilities without making the base class unrecognizable.

For instance, the Summoner/Tank combination, known as the Brood Warden, might draw inspiration from characters like Starcraft’s Zagara. The Brood Warden could focus on summoning resilient, defensive minions that absorb damage or disrupt enemy formations, rather than directly tanking in the traditional sense. These minions could act as extensions of the Summoner’s will, drawing enemy aggro and providing a buffer zone, thus fulfilling a tank-like role without stripping away the Summoner’s DPS-centric identity.

Similarly, a Mage/Tank combination could draw from examples like DnD’s Abjuration or War Magic, where the Mage uses powerful defensive spells, barriers, and magical wards to absorb or deflect damage. The Mage’s tanking role could revolve around controlling the battlefield, using magic to manipulate enemy movements and protect allies, rather than simply absorbing hits in the traditional sense.

3. Setting Clear Expectations:

One of the key responsibilities in game design, especially with such a versatile system, is to clearly communicate these nuances to the player base. The challenge lies in ensuring that players understand that while their class might gain new abilities and role-shifting options through secondary archetypes, the core essence of their primary class will remain the dominant aspect. This clarity will help prevent potential frustration or disappointment when players realize that, for example, a Summoner/Tank is not a traditional tank in the way a Fighter/Tank might be if it can tank at all.

George_Black

Combat animations that depict iconic fantasy types, even if different games present them in their own way, are as important as good combat and motion, server stability, economy driven society and conflict as well as a non instanced world.

Animations should match the weapons/magic tools. Animations should show where the character draws power from, whether it is by harnessing the elements, being bestown divine power, surrendering to the darkness.
Animations should make it clear that this warrior is a master of technique, this one relies on brute strength, this one is a battle mage and this one is an oppurtunistic killer.

For that you need a structure of classes and weapons.

The alternative is a false promise of play as you want, as the meta will eventually become narrow and most of the options will not be viable.
Needless to say that the animations have to be generic and detached from the characters bow, specially the physical classes.

I am way more concerned on whether the classes will feel unique that if I can make gold as a carpenter or a blacksmith or a scribe, and whether there should be both cooking, potion making, rune making and enchanting.
We cant ignore the basics of gaming.
You cant spend time on those and ignore the base of the genre

Rippley

ariatras wrote: »

Your insights into the potential disconnect between class names and their in-game mechanics are spot-on and raise an important point in the design of complex class systems like the one in Ashes of Creation. The primary/secondary archetype model is indeed a fascinating system that promises a wide array of playstyles, but it also poses challenges in managing player expectations, especially when it comes to iconic class identities.

1. The Challenge of Balancing Class Identity with Flexibility:

As you’ve noted, many players bring preconceived notions about what certain classes, such as Paladins, Necromancers, or Summoners, should embody. These expectations are often shaped by years of exposure to various fantasy settings, games, and systems like DnD or other MMOs. When designing a system that allows for such broad class customization, it becomes crucial to strike a balance between maintaining the core identity of a class and allowing for meaningful, yet not overwhelming, variation through secondary archetypes.

For example, the idea of a Summoner is traditionally tied to a DPS-centric role, where the primary function is to call forth and control creatures that deal damage. The introduction of a secondary archetype like Tank creates an interesting design challenge: How do we incorporate tanking elements without fundamentally altering the Summoner’s identity?

2. Integrating Secondary Archetypes Without Overwriting the Primary Role:

Steven Sharif has mentioned that secondary archetypes won’t drastically change your primary class pick, which suggests that the core mechanics and fantasy of your base class will remain intact, even as you add new layers to it. This is a delicate balancing act. The goal is to allow the secondary archetype to add flavor, utility, and slight role-shifting capabilities without making the base class unrecognizable.

For instance, the Summoner/Tank combination, known as the Brood Warden, might draw inspiration from characters like Starcraft’s Zagara. The Brood Warden could focus on summoning resilient, defensive minions that absorb damage or disrupt enemy formations, rather than directly tanking in the traditional sense. These minions could act as extensions of the Summoner’s will, drawing enemy aggro and providing a buffer zone, thus fulfilling a tank-like role without stripping away the Summoner’s DPS-centric identity.

Similarly, a Mage/Tank combination could draw from examples like DnD’s Abjuration or War Magic, where the Mage uses powerful defensive spells, barriers, and magical wards to absorb or deflect damage. The Mage’s tanking role could revolve around controlling the battlefield, using magic to manipulate enemy movements and protect allies, rather than simply absorbing hits in the traditional sense.

3. Setting Clear Expectations:

One of the key responsibilities in game design, especially with such a versatile system, is to clearly communicate these nuances to the player base. The challenge lies in ensuring that players understand that while their class might gain new abilities and role-shifting options through secondary archetypes, the core essence of their primary class will remain the dominant aspect. This clarity will help prevent potential frustration or disappointment when players realize that, for example, a Summoner/Tank is not a traditional tank in the way a Fighter/Tank might be if it can tank at all.

Great breakdown. I am hoping for some clarity in Friday's Q&A so that we can start adjusting out expectations. Even though I lean heavily towards more flavor and uniqueness for archetype combos I don't really have a problem with either system, I just want to know what the ultimate vision is so I can set my expectations correctly.

Rippley

Personally I would like to see the archetype combos at least attempt to tie the unique elements of each archetype together in a cohesive way. For example;

Nightblade (Figher/Rogue): You gain a burst of Combat Momentum after attacking an enemy from Stealth. Attacks that deal poison damage award 1 additional Combat Momentum.

Hunter (Fighter/Ranger): Ranged Weapon combo finishers generate additional Combat Momentum. Attacks have a chance to apply a stack of Stalk to the target.

Spellsword (Fighter/Mage): Whenever you use a fighter skill augmented by a specific element, your weapon combo finishers gain Elemental Empowerment for that element. Attacks that hit burning, chilled, or volatile targets grant 1 additional Combat Momentum.

Lodrig

Rippley wrote: »

Personally I would like to see the archetype combos at least attempt to tie the unique elements of each archetype together in a cohesive way. For example;

Nightblade (Figher/Rogue): You gain a burst of Combat Momentum after attacking an enemy from Stealth. Attacks that deal poison damage award 1 additional Combat Momentum.

Hunter (Fighter/Ranger): Ranged Weapon combo finishers generate additional Combat Momentum. Attacks have a chance to apply a stack of Stalk to the target.

Spellsword (Fighter/Mage): Whenever you use a fighter skill augmented by a specific element, your weapon combo finishers gain Elemental Empowerment for that element. Attacks that hit burning, chilled, or volatile targets grant 1 additional Combat Momentum.

This is the kind of feedback and creative blending of the archetypes that I'm looking for. Though I think these examples feel a little granular, they read almost like the descriptions of individual Nodes in an augment tree. But they are excellent starting points for playstyle concepts particularly in how they incorporate the Momemtum system of the Fighter. If I was to reformulate them to broader descriptions I might get.

Shadowblades (not NightBlade) are able to both attack from stealth with burst damage and sustain prolonged combat, the Nightblade focuses on rapidly apply numeous DoT and disabeling effects in melle to their oponent. They then gains Momentum with each DoT tick to sustain their assualt as long as nessary.

Hunters focus on eliminating high priority targets that they single out with Marking and debuffs delivered by ranged attacks before they close in for a quick kill in melee, they gain momentum faster if they remain focused on their target exclusivly though they are so target fixated they lose all momentum upon downing their quarry nessesitating a reset to range to begin stalking a new target.

Spellsword are able to empower their weapon attacks with elemental damage to bypass the physical defenses of thier oponents. As their Momentum builds they apply more elemental damage and status effects with each hit. By expending their Momentum they can generate elemental blasts centered on themselves.

Lodrig

Some new concepts for Rogue secondary

Rogue/Bard Charlatans
Focusing on the inspiring their allies with daring dirty fighting tactics and backstabs, each dastardly deed and mustache twirl giving a temporary bonus to themselves and nearby allies. While weak at the moment they reveal themselves the compounding effects of their inspiration can reach a rapid creshendo carrying them or their team to victory.

Rogue/Ranger Predators
The ideal sniper, they stalks their target and fires from stealth without revealing themselves so long as they limit their rate of fire. While a single attack can only drop already weakened oponents they are ideal at pursuing and applying snares and slows with their ranged attacks on fleeing groups wich will leave straglers which can then be easily finished off by a pursuing group or by the Predator themself at their leisure.

Summoner/Rogue Shadowmancer
Shadowmancer's summon etherial and ghostly aparitions which have no collision and evade most barriers and snares. The Shadowmancer can also disquise themselves as a similar aparition nigh indistinquishable from one of their summons thus allowing them to join in combat, or escape at lower risk while presenting their enemy with a deadly shell game.

Lodrig

Some more ideas

Tank/Mage Spellshield
Masters of magical riposte the Spellshield soaks up half of magical damage recived to restore their mana with the rest generating Courage as normal. They can then release a huge omnidirectional burst of magical damage back at their attackers by consuming all their current Courage and Mana.

Summoner/Tank Brood Warden
A flexible defender able to summon an aray of durable Golems ranging fom earth to stone to metal, with a command these golems can morph into walls, cages, spikes and other obstacles to block oponents or envelop the Warden or allies in protective shells, though the golems remain vulnorable to attack in these altered states. Likewise they can be commanded to morph back at any time to re-engage oponents in direct combat.

Rogue/Summoner Shadow Lord -
A master of misdirection the Shadow lord not only moves stealthfully but through throwing their voice and using ticks of light and shadow they can split off false images of themselves which they can move at will to confuse their enemies and bait out spells, unwise pursuit and countermeasures and either attack or escape in the ensuing confusion. AKA Shadow clone Jitsu.

Caww

my greatest fantasy is that when playing my Ranger/Ranger nobody calls out:

Ranger Down !!

CROW3

Sentinel (Ranger / Tank). I've always played some version of a multi-class ranger / fighter. The basic idea is to be able to engage from a distance then hold my own with sword & board for those that survive being pincushioned.

Lodrig

CROW3 wrote: »

Sentinel (Ranger / Tank). I've always played some version of a multi-class ranger / fighter. The basic idea is to be able to engage from a distance then hold my own with sword & board for those that survive being pincushioned.

I see Tank secondary being more then just being 'beefier' (wear armor if you want that). Maybe the Snare and Crowd control elements of Tank could be emphasized in a Ranger/Tank as both archetypes have a lot of that so Sentinel would be the ultimate 'stopping power' but not nessarily have a high damage output. Also dodge tanking seems more more stylistically appropriate for a Ranger base archetype.

Ranger/Tank Sentinel
Master of crowd control the Sentinal lets no enemy pass with their wide set of Area effect snares, obstacles and hamstrining hits delivered at range and by Marking. They eshew heavy damage output of other Rangers in favor of Dodge and evasion which is unparreleled against ranged attacks and rely on their virtual wall of obstacles to kite melee oponents while drawing out long attritional duels with other archers.

Dose that sound like a compelling class kit you would like to play?

Hinotori

As an archwizard I'm hoping I can throw little balls that transform into blinding over the top seizure inducing VFX on contact with enemies.

Lodrig

Hinotori wrote: »

As an archwizard I'm hoping I can throw little balls that transform into blinding over the top seizure inducing VFX on contact with enemies.

That seems like more of a Bard thing to me. Though I guess it would be kinda of a head game if Bards could kind of 'fake' having Bigger more powerfull spells then they actually do. Illusion and meszmerizing magic is kind of a Bard specialty. So maybe Bard/Mage or Mage/Bard can LOOK like they are dropping archwizard nukes even if they don't have that much punch.

Ayeveegaming1

My favorite fantasy class is not in this game except for an augment.

I would love to have Necromancer as an Archetype and not an afterthought please.

Lodrig

George_Black wrote: »

I am a pretty vanilla guy in gaming.
Give me human for a race, with medieval looks, even though I am not from northern europe.
And give me a class with melee abilities, with animations that look good on twin swords, 2handed or sword shield.

I want from my class to be able to make a character that shines on the field of battle, mostly on small scale and duels, using a mastery of swords, and the tools to respond to the majority of enemy types, so that I can achieve victory.
I dont care for magic, I dont care for ranged attacks.

I will play the Fighter since it's animations are good enough for what I want. I hope they dont look weird on twin swords.
I will select the meta class combo.

For all those that want a class with more distinct lore and playstyle, like a necro, dark knight, paladin, druit or monk, (scratch monk, unarmed combat is a ridiculous concept for mmos) I would advise you to start conversations, because I dont see how the rigid abilities of the 8 archetypes will manage to change to something that feels unique, even if you borrow a bit of flavour from the other archetypes.

Sounds like you want Fighter/Fighter aka Blade Master. Though I am not sure if the can dual wield.

As for how much skills need to change I'm thinking that Half of an archetypes active skills will need a radical change (such as the range, shape, target type, condition of purpose of usage etc), another 40% will need a Flavor change (extra procs, damage type changes, buffs etc), and 10% will need near total changes which almost completly change what a skill dose. That's a lot of total change I will admit.

Lodrig

Ravicus wrote: »

My favorite fantasy class is not in this game except for an augment. I would love to have Necromancer as an Archetype and not an afterthought please.

Did you see my Necro concept from the other thread, I'll post it again here.

Summoner/Cleric Necromancer
Necromancers summon undead themed minions which are unique for their immunity to most mind effecting debuffs, stuns, taunts and other mindeffecting crowdcontrol effects as well as crital hits, but at a cost of being more vulnorable to Holy damage. The Necromaner also brings powerfull targeted and AoE lifedrain effects which sustain himself, his summons and team mates.

This combines what I think are the minamal nessary components to be a credible Necromancer. They function as an off-healer through exclusivly lifedraining and due most damage through their summons which is how I imagine most summoners will work.

nanfoodle

I have watched every video today from monthly streams to the top Ashes content creators. Everyone has different ideas on this subject and many content creators don't even like it for different reasons. And any official word gives almost no information. I'm not sure how anyone can be excited about Augments and subclasses. Even the wiki is not helpful lol

Only one conclusion. We really can't give real feedback till we know at least 10% on this. Because we know way less then that. IS really needs to do a monthly update on this. My guess we will know not much more till around May 1st 2025, when we get the last Base class.

OMI it's two things. IS is still working out how they will be handling this very large game system. Or what they did work out needed to be reworked in some way.

Ayeveegaming1

Lodrig wrote: »

Ravicus wrote: »

My favorite fantasy class is not in this game except for an augment. I would love to have Necromancer as an Archetype and not an afterthought please.

Did you see my Necro concept from the other thread, I'll post it again here.

Summoner/Cleric Necromancer
Necromancers summon undead themed minions which are unique for their immunity to most mind effecting debuffs, stuns, taunts and other mindeffecting crowdcontrol effects as well as crital hits, but at a cost of being more vulnorable to Holy damage. The Necromaner also brings powerfull targeted and AoE lifedrain effects which sustain himself, his summons and team mates.

This combines what I think are the minamal nessary components to be a credible Necromancer. They function as an off-healer through exclusivly lifedraining and due most damage through their summons which is how I imagine most summoners will work.

Ya, thats a nice concept

What I have in mind is not just a summoner however. I would like to have necro be a archetype that could be augmented with mage, fighter, and all the others including summoner. But to bottleneck one of the most popular templates in gaming to a one augment subclass is just wrong in my opinion.

Lodrig

Ravicus wrote: »

Ya, thats a nice concept What I have in mind is not just a summoner however. I would like to have necro be a archetype that could be augmented with mage, fighter, and all the others including summoner. But to bottleneck one of the most popular templates in gaming to a one augment subclass is just wrong in my opinion.

I could only get behind that if Summoner were not already an Archetype. Then Necromancer could then get all the variations your imagining in place of Summoner. But having both is just too much area to stretch a limited amount of canvas across and distinquishing a Summoner/Fighter from a Necromancer/Fighter would be nigh impossible.

nanfoodle

Lodrig wrote: »

Ravicus wrote: »

My favorite fantasy class is not in this game except for an augment. I would love to have Necromancer as an Archetype and not an afterthought please.

Did you see my Necro concept from the other thread, I'll post it again here.

Summoner/Cleric Necromancer
Necromancers summon undead themed minions which are unique for their immunity to most mind effecting debuffs, stuns, taunts and other mindeffecting crowdcontrol effects as well as crital hits, but at a cost of being more vulnorable to Holy damage. The Necromaner also brings powerfull targeted and AoE lifedrain effects which sustain himself, his summons and team mates.

This combines what I think are the minamal nessary components to be a credible Necromancer. They function as an off-healer through exclusivly lifedraining and due most damage through their summons which is how I imagine most summoners will work.

It's post like this I am saying we need information soon then later. Peoples picture of subclasses are not fitting with the little info we have.

EDIT: This could have backlash

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